yeah and saying "You're either with me, or against me." isn't at all

Yes.

If people got paid the same amount in TF2 as they did in OW I'm sure they'd all be willing to play against these retard weapons too. So yes that is the solution.

First of all, it's astonishing you'd compare those two and pretend that they're actual 1:1 comparisons. You've hated OW for long enough that you should understand they're completely different games, otherwise I'd hope you'd just bite the bullet and stop playing this game. Weapons like that are even unenjoyable in Overwatch, yet they suit the game much better. A game like TF2 should never see any weapons you'd see in Overwatch, as it's a much more raw, movement/dm based game. As for the money bit, I guess you're figuring this out now? I have absolutely no idea how many people play ESEA every season, so I'll say there are like 50 teams total. I HOPE and feel like that should be less than the actual number, but 50 nonetheless, as an example. You're asking at least hundreds of players (and basically the entire competitive community) to literally have less fun playing for no monetary benefit or achievable goal in sight. Sure, maybe if real money were on the line, and players earned money monthly for playing the game, they could actually live with the bullshit. However, as I've covered already, you're asking people who play only for fun to forfeit playing for fun.

i'm pretty sure if valve were to officially announce a major lan tournament for tf2 every active player would be willing to deal with the bullshit whitelist for a season or 2...but we're getting baited to TRY to get valve to have a major tournament by using their awful unlocks and jumping up and down yelling please look at us

I've already outlined how these changes do not reduce the fun of the game but instead they can expand it, and I've explicitly described the goal plus provided precedence/evidence that its an attainable one. From the years of playing with you, you've never had a very constructive or progressive mindset; your solution to most things has always been "remove this from the game" even years before anyone expected Valve to be listening. If others have a similarly toxic mentality and are solely motivated by money they should probably just follow your lead and quit now tbh.

I'd forfeit my fun to pay the bills. The problem is that tf2 doesn't pay the bills for almost everybody who plays it. So I don't need to forfeit my fun if there's a potential for financial gain a few years down the line once I may have moved on.

Most people know what would ruin the game for them better than you do. I don't want to play with the quick-fix, vita-saw, or solemn vow. Sometimes, I'd rather use the Overdose over the xBow. People know what'd be fun for them, and it's insane to be mad at them for defending something they hold dear to them for a slim chance at dividends that may not be worth it if the game were to change that much.

"Guys we need to grow the game!" "How are we going to do that" we ask, "By telling everyone they are wrong and that they should leave!" he replied.

Most people posting here are missing the entire point. Allowing the Crit-a-Cola or Gloves of Running Urgently in their current states could definitely forfeit your fun. Allowing a few innocuous non game changing unlocks doesn't forfeit your fun. The global whitelist project was always moving towards doing only more of the latter. No one except maybe Slin (who doesn't actually care what happens, only that people agree) is willing to completely remove whitelists at this time.

Getting rid of the toxic people who impede progress and replacing them with people who genuinely care and still have a passion for the game would absolutely kickstart progressing competitive TF2.

I don't understand why people think that changing the whitelist is like the magic thing that's gonna make the game grow

the reason were small is cause our tournaments/leagues have fuck all for prizepools, sponsors and general presence

But why should we forfeit any of our fun in the slightest for a development team which has shown almost no desire to communicate or work with our community? Why should we trust them to make things better when they've had just about the minimum amount of competitive support possible?

This thread needs names. Which toxic people impede progress and need to be removed.

If anybody's impeding the progress of the game, I would sooner point my finger at the company who needs to borrow statistics from a community league because they can't get people to play their own matchmaking system.

B4nny, a lot of people would agree with clock here and you simply aren't listening for the sake of your argument. "forfeiting fun" is an opinion so you can't tell clock that playing with the rescue ranger isn't, at least for him, forfeiting the fun.

The rest of us who have accepted that tf2 will never be the next big esport just want to play the game we love in the format that we love it most. Without jarate, cowmangler, loch, etc.

what actual feedback has been gathered from the previous whitelist ?
apart from, oh that weapon kind of sucks and that weapon kind of less sucks
what solutions/alternatives have been proposed ?
who´s in charge/responsible for the list ?
what was valve´s response ?
what´s their timeline ?
The answer is zero to all the above.
So why should we as community keep doing this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUpbOliTHJY

I can promise you my fleeting "remove this weapon" comments in Mumble are not entirely representative of my balancing techniques. The crux of my "remove this item" comments is that most of these weapons are actually so stupid, it would be faster and more efficient to remove them than to actually waste your time fiddling with them so that you don't end up like tsar, who would not like to forfeit his fun for a potential gain years down the line, once he has lost interest. Believe it or not, others have agreed, which is why we have blacklists. Maybe Valve should fix their matchmaking client so that a lot of these adjustments can be made outside of the ESEA client? Perhaps matchmaking could become its own testing ground for these items, with a growing ecosystem of good players and the ability to create metrics for how underused, underpowered, or overpowered these weapons are in a 6v6 format. Oh, wait, haha :) Just another example of how people can't trust Valve to make a quality update in a timely manner and as a result, will not forfeit even a fraction of their fun for a fleeting dream.

As far as the money statement goes, you do not reserve the right to use money as an argument in a game where only you make money. The entire issue is so unbelievably fucking divisive, it makes me laugh that you could accuse people of only doing x or y for money, or even argue that doing x or y for money is a deplorable thing, when you are the only person in the game who makes a livable wage off of the game. Also, seeing as many of the community are in agreement with this toxic attitude, perhaps one day you could extradite the entire community?

EDIT: #StandWithB4nny

The only way Valve will ever invest money into our community directly is if a Team Fortress 3 was made. Knowing that, we shouldn't be trying to appease anyone except ourselves until that day comes. As a community we should focus on what effects the fundamental game mechanics and what weapons break those fundamentals (thus making the game no fun for anyone).

I also agree with what Hildreth says, we've all had this conversation more than once is at this point. We keep asking these same types of questions because we can't commit to following a path of uncertainty. Life is a path of uncertainty, but we are fortunate because we only have one path we can truly fallow without regret; and that is to design the rules and regulations for anything that concerns Team Fortress 2 by the standards of the community, for the sake of the community.

The issue I have with unlocks only this; when your teammates pick inappropriate unlocks in an attempt to bm but instead get rekted because the weapon or the teammate do not have the adequate skill required. Now you might say that isn't necessarily the problem of the weapon but rather the player; I would argue that if you remove the temptation to be an idiot, then people are less likely to be an idiot.

tl;dr Don't bait your fam, let's all use logic and love to figure out what is best for the community.

i can kind of see why people have issue with jarate/loch but how is the cow mangler annoying?????? just because it looks ugly???

where is this poll that's been mentioned

Valve needs to get tf2 away from their interns and hand over the development to Hidden Path, then maybe we'll actually get a dev that knows how to make a game halfway decent.

wasn't cs go being garbage when it was first released due to hidden path and valve is why the game is in an alright state (although they've been far from perfect)

tbh hidden path would still do better even if that's the case...

Difference though, first release and fixed not that long after it.

First release and still not fixed 10 years after it.

the csgo community also has tons of legitimate grievances with valve, and a lot of the issues that have been fixed over the course of years were brought up like during beta by pro players who basically got ignored

it also still has 64 tick mm, wonky first bullet accuracy, unbalanced weapons, dumbed down movement mechanics, etc.

I love me some csgo but definitely not the best example of valve doing things right

either fucking unban everything or go back to the way it used to be and ban everything except the staples (gunboats, kritz, escape plan, etc)

my vote would be the latter but either option beats this pussy footing around bullshit

un-nerf stickies and i PROMISE everything will be alright

1. no one knows what valve is gonna fucking do
2. I and many others still think the game fun even with the current whitelist even if people disagree on a few items. The game is not necessarily better or worse than "muh vanilla days". Everyone just wants a right to complain and think tf2 will die.
3. everyone calm down

I can't tell if you're making fun of people like me or not but let it be known that I agree

maybe since you've played so long normal 6s bores you idk but I don't see how you can say running more engie more heavy or more pyro expands how much you can enjoy tf2.

I'm a little confused about the goal of the expanded whitelist. When initially announced, the stated purpose was to give the weapons a real shot, in serious competitive play- would they be that bad? The entire competitive community willingly or unwillingly took part in this experiment.

So, we got some data out of that. The atomizer and BASE jumper make 6s much less fun and less skillful, so they need to stay banned, at least in their current form. The air strike, beggars bazooka, the powerjack? They didn't really cause any problems, so there's no point in banning them.

There are some weapons that were previously banned that have divided opinions though, having given them months of serious play to test how they fit into 6s. Rescue ranger, Natascha, and Jarate received the most complaints. Now, with the stated goal of the global whitelist, it's completely reasonable, and should be expected, that we have an honest discussion about whether to reban them. In my own experience, they haven't bothered me much- but the overall community's opinion is valuable feedback and what matters.

After all, isn't banning a weapon after giving it a try the strongest possible feedback to Valve? I sure hope they know the Atomizer and BASE jumper need to be changed in order to be whitelisted.

Ignoring feedback on the global whitelist defeats the entire purpose of its existence.

I'll pack your bags