5cp is not a broken game mode. Stale mates are not inherently bad. A win limit clears up a lot of issues with 5cp by giving an incentive for closing out a match. and time pressures like uber advantage and numbers give teams incentive to push. Just because 5cp is not perfect doesn't mean you can't have good matches on it. I much prefer it to koth and a/d

let's just enjoy ourselves

I'd love to see more variation in map selection. 5CP is a solid game mode, but it's kinda grown stale over the years. Introducing new map types, or even bringing out new 5CP maps (instead of map revisions), would definitely help bring new life into this thing.

I'm personally trying to get a payload map made for 6v6 competitive play. Would love to see how others handle payload, and if it can become a solid competitive map type. I feel like it can, if we just made the maps smaller, and brought out touch to push, instead of constantly having to be near the cart at all times. Like, touch the cart and have it move slowly until red stops it. Could also maybe do a tug of war type thing. Like, red touches cart, and it starts moving towards the blue base. Blue touches it, and it moves to the red base. The goal is to blow up the enemy base. Could make for an interesting match if done right.

Why do this vs playing 5CP? Although it does solve the issue of pushing cart being boring as fuck, the only thing that this accomplishes is artificially limiting the momentum a team can have.

Payload is already in the game, so why not try to make it a little more competitive? It'll change up how you play, just like koth does. Different modes, different play styles. I don't see that being a bad thing, if it's done right. Just means more diversity in the end.

Passtime is an official game mode.

Passtime is basically ctf, and also isn't a primary game mode in TF2. It's like a secondary thing, whereas payload is a primary mode. I feel like having it would help newer players adjust to the competitive structure, since Valve's already doing it in their match making anyway. This is more an answer to what Valve themselves started. I mean, if they're going to try to make payload represent the competitive side of TF2, we may as well try to make an actual competitive map for payload.

I Am Excited For CappingTVs Stream Of This Event

You're moving the goalposts, but CTF is a "primary" gamemode and is even more shit. Although ctf_haarp is a neat concept, I think it's still just a shitty version of A/D, because you lose the mechanic of partially capping a point, which gives the attacking team momentum.

Having a payload that has different mechanics than every other payload map isn't going to make new players adjust to competitive better.

Also, Valve doesn't care.

maybe instead of endlessly trying to create the "perfect" whitelist, we should instead focus on actively trying to grow the scene(keeping newbie team drive alive, supporting/playing/watching leagues, getting more cups/LANs, higher prizepools, more team sponsors etc.)instead of just hoping that the legality of the GRU is the one thing keeping pubbers from playing 6s(Hint: it's not)

Not saying that this isn't a worthwhile effort, I just feel it's not gonna make that big of a difference unless Valve is gonna accept having class limits and a whitelist in matchmaking, which they probably don't. Also when's universal ruleset?

I get where you're coming from but when we try to "fix" the whitelist or make these changes to the game, it's attacking the growth of our scene from a different angle. For example you could grow the scene by spending your time coaching newbie mixes, or you could make our game better and more naturally enjoyable to pick up and play. Both are valid uses of time in my eyes.

Everyone in our community can pitch in and play to their strengths. If you're a great teacher, coach newbie mixes. If you're a great map maker like Sidular, look to make our map selection more enticing.

just make a whitelist people want to play with to stop people quitting the game because there's no point having any other goal if there's no one left playing tf2

For sure they're both good efforts, it just seems a bit sad when there are so many people vocal about the whitelist and rulesets while the other approach is just as important but gets way less attention outside of the community crowdfunding(a kinda flawed way to grow a scene)

How about leagues including a "flex" spot in their map pools that can be any of the other game modes as long as it's not 5cp? Or maybe not 5cp and koth? Map makers need the incentive that their maps will actually be played.

If for example there was a guaranteed payload slot and a guaranteed AD spot there would definitely be more incentive to make maps for those modes, as anything competent pretty much takes the slot. It would require leagues and players to commit to playing game modes and maps they have voted they would rather not though until those maps were made. Who jumps first?

I cannot understand the uproar this thread causes.

Slin makes a great effort to unify the whitelist, which is important for a number of reasons. Yes, this is only one and only a small step towards TF2 as an eSport, but it is a step that we have to take.
He does not claim to have a solution for all the other problems or things that have to be done.
This is also not the thread to discuss this. This is the thread asking for your input regarding the meeting on saturday for all those people that will not have a voice during the discussion.
I cannot see how this is a bad thing.

At ETF2L we experience this kind of backlash almost every season. Ban a weapon, you get shit. Try to cycle a new map into the rotation, you get shit. It does not matter what you change, people will always give you shit for anything you decide, just because it is new and teams/players actually have to learn a new angle towards the game.
This is a big problem! People seem to think signups are declining because we change weapon bans or maps. That is wrong. If we wouldnt change stuff every season, the game would be even more stale as it is and the number of players would decrease faster.

What I am saying is: stop bashing people that contribute to the community, accept and embrace change!
Without people like Slin we have no chance of surviving.

I will show my passion for tf2 by waking up at 4am to participate in this

One day to go.

I can't wait for the marvelous reasonable discussion that will take place.

https://i.gyazo.com/8b05df90050a4f990a0f2be68fd8f833.png

I think the goal of the whitelist is to affect the game balance by removing weapons that are either "broken" or overpowered.

First a website of someone who knows his shit unlike us.

So strictly speaking for weapons, an overpowered weapon is a weapon "that is strictly better than any other" weapon "you could use, so its very existence reduces the strategy of the game"

How do you decide if something is "stricly better"? By playtesting. Has weapon X been proven to be run exclusively in 6s or allowed a very specific uncounterable move or strategy to be pulled? If no, then it should not be banned.

Some currently banned weapons agree to this definition : atomizer, crit a cola, vitasaw, quickfix for example.
Interestingly, some beloved weapons agree to this too : gunboats or crossbow for example.

This one is the easiest. It's a weapon with a mechanic that does not work as intended by the developpers. For example, the pomson when the projectile could become invisible, or taunts that fucked up the hitboxes.

The whole 'fun' element can not be used when you want to objectively balance the game, because fun is by definition subjective. And saying 'a majority of people agree on what fun is therefore we should do X' is just shitting on the rest of the players who think otherwise, so it does the complete opposite of bringing everyone together as the player MR_SLIN claims.

You probably shouldn't be quoting sirlin because a lot of his balancing philosophy comes from his experience in fighting/card and other asymmetrical games which are very different to tf2. For example he thinks that when buffing up a previously underpowered item it should deliberately be made too good so that it will be played. He also argues pretty strongly against banning anything because he argues that very few strategies are actually uncounterable, even if they may seem so when they are first discovered or used in a tournament. These ideals make sense for the games he plays but they don't hold true to this one.

Bru who's still trying to esport tf2 in 2017

And why exactly wouldnt it work with TF2? What's wrong with that way of thinking?

The triggering is upon us...

only 2 hours left till action!

Can't wait to see what stupid shit gets unbanned because I'm not able to attend the meeting

I mean that is fine, he's at least tried to explain it - However he opens a can of worms, if you follow this definition strictly, then the crossbow should be banned, but if that is the case everyone will be in uproar because Medics love the crossbow and in general teams like it because it makes heals/ubers and everything more efficient. But it's vastly superior to any alternatives. The gunboats is a similar proposition, but I don't think should be in the same category because sometimes teams used battalions backup or shotgun to add an extra dynamic to their play.

But therein lies the problems with whitelists - You made your own definition of what an unbalanced weapon is yet don't have the balls to enforce it being banned because it ruins the "subjective" fun of the gamemode. That's the issue, the inconsistencies of whitelists - Some weapons are deemed banned because of this definition (Vitasaw for example) whilst others that fit it perfectly (Crossbow) remain unbanned because it's subjectively seen as "More fun" by people, even though the argument is "Fun is subjective so should not matter".

Either ban all of the unlocks that fit this definition or allow them, no middle ground because it's inconsistent and turns the whitelist into what it is today - A muddle of unlocks decided by a rabble of people wanting to enforce their own views on game balance onto a stagnating, hybrid and chaotic version of TF2 that is different from anything seen elsewhere including the Matchmaking mod - The very thing the developers tried to introduce to support the competitive community.

And the idea that MR Slin knows his shit more than any other person is laughable, he's a person with views and opinions like everyone else, difference is he uses his social media platform to launch it and has spread his ideas to a point where leagues listen to him. Don't get me wrong I'd rather they listened to him over some of these idiots I see posting here, but nobody is special - He just has more a direction he wants to take the game - Good for him.

I don't think the problem is that people can't decide what they think is balanced/unbalanced, fair/unfair, fun/unfun and apply it consistently. The problem is that whenever a weapon which is fun at a mechanical level becomes unbalanced, let's use the crossbow as an example, you would have to ban it because Valve is incapable of (re)balancing it. The end result is that you end up banning a bunch of weapons which are interesting but a bit too powerful and allowing a bunch of mechanically inspirationless weapons which are balanced, which means you are making a choice between a somewhat erratic but mechanically fun game and a consistent/fair but dull game. Most players seem to prefer the slightly erratic but fun variant. Let's have some examples:

• Balancing by increasing the power level of other items - Gunboats could be balanced by making base self-damage without the gunboats equipped lower, which would cause shotgun to be run more and simultaneously curb scouts, which I'd say most people agree is the most powerful class in organised gameplay
  
• Balancing by nerfing or increasing the power of one item - Black Box heals 1 HP for every 3 damage dealt(that's ~35 on a point blank direct and ~15-20 for a mid-range direct or a close-range juggle), which rewards hitting close-range directs but doesn't give you much for spamming with it
  
• Balancing one class's weapon pool by doing both of the above at the same time without having a negative effect on overall game balance - The crossbow could be balanced by making it heal 50% of what it does now, while needles are given the ability to heal players in a distance-inversed manner(the further the target is from the medic, the more each needle heals the target) for an amount of heals per second equal to the crossbow. The needle gun will not be able to save someone(no burst heal and the target will have to stand still for a long time compared to the crossbow), but it is better at self-defence, so the items are balanced and each unique in their own right(choice between self-defence or hero saves)
  
• Possible to balance but will not introduce more fun or skill - The Vitasaw could probably be balanced by making the other saws better. If you nerfed the Vitasaw, it would just be useless. However, why would you start changing other items which are fun/balanced to compensate for an item which gives you 20% über without even making one single button input?

Now you go ahead and try to accomplish the same balance simply by banning items. It would be like asking Michelangelo to chisel David with a pickaxe; you're going to need a finer tool for the job, and Valve needs to provide/be that tool(some would argue they are tools, but that's not the kind I'm talking about). It's not our theory or practice that's at fault, we just don't have the means to realise the ideal. We can refine the whitelist until we're blue in the face, but it doesn't help past a certain point.

Bonus medic primary idea: A plasma gun which steps, like in Quake, so you could heal/damage people with it reliably at close range if your tracking is good, but the projectiles are slower than needles past the step distance, so it becomes really easy to dodge them/they take a long time to get to your heal target(so they can be collapsed on before you can heal them at long range).

for yr 3rd point

the needlegun should heal like 1hp but give you a bonus for hitting multiple needles in a row so you need good aim to heal moving ppl with it and the xbow should be the one with reverse range falloff

cause otherwise you'd still never use the needlegun cause the xbow still does insane damage

"my class is shit, I just want demo to get a shotgun"

oh my lord this discussion is retarded

wonder how many invite teams are going to fold because of this whitelist?