rocketslay"ok guys we're gonna try these weapons out in pugchamp/scrims for a few days before coming to a final decision for league play"
It's the last day of ESEA registration and I see no decision yet
Global Whitelist Lists Post-Meeting
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
[quote=rocketslay]"ok guys we're gonna try these weapons out in pugchamp/scrims for a few days before coming to a final decision for league play"[/quote]
It's the last day of ESEA registration and I see no decision yet
It's the last day of ESEA registration and I see no decision yet
nobody at the top is scrimming with this shit because of LAN
I would like to have a whitelist meeting that doesn't involve a delusional megalomaniac trying to unban every broken item in the game and also has fair representation from all regions.
nobody at the top is scrimming with this shit because of LAN
I would like to have a whitelist meeting that doesn't involve a delusional megalomaniac trying to unban every broken item in the game and also has fair representation from all regions.
I would like to have a whitelist meeting that doesn't involve a delusional megalomaniac trying to unban every broken item in the game and also has fair representation from all regions.
botmodenobody at the top is scrimming with this shit because of LAN
I would like to have a whitelist meeting that doesn't involve a delusional megalomaniac trying to unban every broken item in the game and also has fair representation from all regions.
The issue is that you and many others are labeling a weapon broken based upon information from 3.5 years ago. The game has changed drastically and it is time to reevaluate weapons. I do agree the timing is less than ideal and it may be better to wait until S25 before implementing any changes to the whitelist, but the competitive community can not be so narrow-minded as to utilize only a fraction of the possibilities of gamestyle in this game because they do not want to put in effort to learn it.
[quote=botmode]nobody at the top is scrimming with this shit because of LAN
I would like to have a whitelist meeting that doesn't involve a delusional megalomaniac trying to unban every broken item in the game and also has fair representation from all regions.[/quote]
The issue is that you and many others are labeling a weapon broken based upon information from 3.5 years ago. The game has changed drastically and it is time to reevaluate weapons. I do agree the timing is less than ideal and it may be better to wait until S25 before implementing any changes to the whitelist, [b]but[/b] the competitive community can not be so narrow-minded as to utilize only a fraction of the possibilities of gamestyle in this game because they do not want to put in effort to learn it.
I would like to have a whitelist meeting that doesn't involve a delusional megalomaniac trying to unban every broken item in the game and also has fair representation from all regions.[/quote]
The issue is that you and many others are labeling a weapon broken based upon information from 3.5 years ago. The game has changed drastically and it is time to reevaluate weapons. I do agree the timing is less than ideal and it may be better to wait until S25 before implementing any changes to the whitelist, [b]but[/b] the competitive community can not be so narrow-minded as to utilize only a fraction of the possibilities of gamestyle in this game because they do not want to put in effort to learn it.
Jaredb027botmodenobody at the top is scrimming with this shit because of LAN
I would like to have a whitelist meeting that doesn't involve a delusional megalomaniac trying to unban every broken item in the game and also has fair representation from all regions.
The issue is that you and many others are labeling a weapon broken based upon information from 3.5 years ago. The game has changed drastically and it is time to reevaluate weapons. I do agree the timing is less than ideal and it may be better to wait until S25 before implementing any changes to the whitelist, but the competitive community can not be so narrow-minded as to utilize only a fraction of the possibilities of gamestyle in this game because they do not want to put in effort to learn it.
Everything in rando's post still applies and still makes the QF dumb af
you still have to run it at 100% of mid fights, which alone is dumb because the ubers are so bad you can't actually do like anything with them so you end up with a stalemate
I think it's a little narrow minded to think that the ONLY reason people don't want to play with these weapons is because they don't want to put in the effort to learn new things
[quote=Jaredb027][quote=botmode]nobody at the top is scrimming with this shit because of LAN
I would like to have a whitelist meeting that doesn't involve a delusional megalomaniac trying to unban every broken item in the game and also has fair representation from all regions.[/quote]
The issue is that you and many others are labeling a weapon broken based upon information from 3.5 years ago. The game has changed drastically and it is time to reevaluate weapons. I do agree the timing is less than ideal and it may be better to wait until S25 before implementing any changes to the whitelist, [b]but[/b] the competitive community can not be so narrow-minded as to utilize only a fraction of the possibilities of gamestyle in this game because they do not want to put in effort to learn it.[/quote]
Everything in rando's post still applies and still makes the QF dumb af
you still have to run it at 100% of mid fights, which alone is dumb because the ubers are so bad you can't actually do like anything with them so you end up with a stalemate
I think it's a little narrow minded to think that the ONLY reason people don't want to play with these weapons is because they don't want to put in the effort to learn new things
I would like to have a whitelist meeting that doesn't involve a delusional megalomaniac trying to unban every broken item in the game and also has fair representation from all regions.[/quote]
The issue is that you and many others are labeling a weapon broken based upon information from 3.5 years ago. The game has changed drastically and it is time to reevaluate weapons. I do agree the timing is less than ideal and it may be better to wait until S25 before implementing any changes to the whitelist, [b]but[/b] the competitive community can not be so narrow-minded as to utilize only a fraction of the possibilities of gamestyle in this game because they do not want to put in effort to learn it.[/quote]
Everything in rando's post still applies and still makes the QF dumb af
you still have to run it at 100% of mid fights, which alone is dumb because the ubers are so bad you can't actually do like anything with them so you end up with a stalemate
I think it's a little narrow minded to think that the ONLY reason people don't want to play with these weapons is because they don't want to put in the effort to learn new things
Jaredb027but the competitive community can not be so narrow-minded as to utilize only a fraction of the possibilities of gamestyle in this game because they do not want to put in effort to learn it.
we can do whatever we want tbh
[quote=Jaredb027][b]but[/b] the competitive community can not be so narrow-minded as to utilize only a fraction of the possibilities of gamestyle in this game because they do not want to put in effort to learn it.[/quote]
we can do whatever we want tbh
we can do whatever we want tbh
also slin's post still doesnt note that the machina is banned on the new whitelists lol
also slin's post still doesnt note that the machina is banned on the new whitelists lol
Jaredb027The issue is that you and many others are labeling a weapon broken based upon information from 3.5 years ago. The game has changed drastically and it is time to reevaluate weapons. I do agree the timing is less than ideal and it may be better to wait until S25 before implementing any changes to the whitelist, but the competitive community can not be so narrow-minded as to utilize only a fraction of the possibilities of gamestyle in this game because they do not want to put in effort to learn it.
The idea of "we'll never know unless we try it" only works to a certain extent. For example, it doesn't take a genius to realize that giving the best class in the game (scout) a weapon that has barely less dpm than his stock scattergun (assuming they fixed the reload glitch) and actually a higher initial burst with faster firing speed that also gives you the ability to just garentee to win any fight against a soldier and a pretty good chance to even win a 2v1 against soldiers is a fucking bad idea, no testing required.
[quote=Jaredb027]The issue is that you and many others are labeling a weapon broken based upon information from 3.5 years ago. The game has changed drastically and it is time to reevaluate weapons. I do agree the timing is less than ideal and it may be better to wait until S25 before implementing any changes to the whitelist, [b]but[/b] the competitive community can not be so narrow-minded as to utilize only a fraction of the possibilities of gamestyle in this game because they do not want to put in effort to learn it.[/quote]
The idea of "we'll never know unless we try it" only works to a certain extent. For example, it doesn't take a genius to realize that giving the best class in the game (scout) a weapon that has barely less dpm than his stock scattergun (assuming they fixed the reload glitch) and actually a higher initial burst with faster firing speed that also gives you the ability to just garentee to win any fight against a soldier and a pretty good chance to even win a 2v1 against soldiers is a fucking bad idea, no testing required.
The idea of "we'll never know unless we try it" only works to a certain extent. For example, it doesn't take a genius to realize that giving the best class in the game (scout) a weapon that has barely less dpm than his stock scattergun (assuming they fixed the reload glitch) and actually a higher initial burst with faster firing speed that also gives you the ability to just garentee to win any fight against a soldier and a pretty good chance to even win a 2v1 against soldiers is a fucking bad idea, no testing required.
botmodeEverything in rando's post still applies and still makes the QF dumb af
you still have to run it at 100% of mid fights, which alone is dumb because the ubers are so bad you can't actually do like anything with them so you end up with a stalemate
I think it's a little narrow minded to think that the ONLY reason people don't want to play with these weapons is because they don't want to put in the effort to learn new things
I still fail to see how you have to run it to 100% of the mids. Kritzkreig is still a medigun option and it can defeat quick-fix when both are popped against each other. Also Kritz charges in roughly 32 seconds while quickfix takes 37 seconds, so in a typical average mid fight, both should get their respective charges at the same time.
Even without using kritzkreig, there are plenty of damage options that can kill a quick-fix charge
Demoman sticky trap of 3-4 stickies
Soldier rocket (direct) + 2-3 stickies
Scout meatshot + 2 rockets (direct)
Demoman pill + sticky trap + rocket
There are even more possibilities if you have offclassing such as snipers or heavies. All of these however requires coordination which is a key aspect of any competitive mode, especially 6v6 in TF2, so I fail to see how it is unreasonable for competitive players to at least be open to trying this out for a week to see if it is at all possible to play with and/or against.
As I have said before, I am not convinced the quick-fix belongs in competitive TF2 but I do not believe that it can be thrown out without proper testing.
[quote=botmode]
Everything in rando's post still applies and still makes the QF dumb af
you still have to run it at 100% of mid fights, which alone is dumb because the ubers are so bad you can't actually do like anything with them so you end up with a stalemate
I think it's a little narrow minded to think that the ONLY reason people don't want to play with these weapons is because they don't want to put in the effort to learn new things[/quote]
I still fail to see how you have to run it to 100% of the mids. Kritzkreig is still a medigun option and it can defeat quick-fix when both are popped against each other. Also Kritz charges in roughly 32 seconds while quickfix takes 37 seconds, so in a typical average mid fight, both should get their respective charges at the same time.
Even without using kritzkreig, there are plenty of damage options that can kill a quick-fix charge
Demoman sticky trap of 3-4 stickies
Soldier rocket (direct) + 2-3 stickies
Scout meatshot + 2 rockets (direct)
Demoman pill + sticky trap + rocket
There are even more possibilities if you have offclassing such as snipers or heavies. All of these however requires coordination which is a key aspect of any competitive mode, especially 6v6 in TF2, so I fail to see how it is unreasonable for competitive players to at least be open to trying this out for a week to see if it is at all possible to play with and/or against.
As I have said before, I am not convinced the quick-fix belongs in competitive TF2 but I do not believe that it can be thrown out without proper testing.
Everything in rando's post still applies and still makes the QF dumb af
you still have to run it at 100% of mid fights, which alone is dumb because the ubers are so bad you can't actually do like anything with them so you end up with a stalemate
I think it's a little narrow minded to think that the ONLY reason people don't want to play with these weapons is because they don't want to put in the effort to learn new things[/quote]
I still fail to see how you have to run it to 100% of the mids. Kritzkreig is still a medigun option and it can defeat quick-fix when both are popped against each other. Also Kritz charges in roughly 32 seconds while quickfix takes 37 seconds, so in a typical average mid fight, both should get their respective charges at the same time.
Even without using kritzkreig, there are plenty of damage options that can kill a quick-fix charge
Demoman sticky trap of 3-4 stickies
Soldier rocket (direct) + 2-3 stickies
Scout meatshot + 2 rockets (direct)
Demoman pill + sticky trap + rocket
There are even more possibilities if you have offclassing such as snipers or heavies. All of these however requires coordination which is a key aspect of any competitive mode, especially 6v6 in TF2, so I fail to see how it is unreasonable for competitive players to at least be open to trying this out for a week to see if it is at all possible to play with and/or against.
As I have said before, I am not convinced the quick-fix belongs in competitive TF2 but I do not believe that it can be thrown out without proper testing.
Jaredb027As I have said before, I am not convinced the quick-fix belongs in competitive TF2 but I do not believe that it can be thrown out without proper testing.
It was tested before and tested again. Guess what, it still fucking sucks and should be deleted from all comp play.
There should not even be a debate about this item and several others.
[quote=Jaredb027]
As I have said before, I am not convinced the quick-fix belongs in competitive TF2 but I do not believe that it can be thrown out without proper testing.[/quote]
It was tested before and tested again. Guess what, it still fucking sucks and should be deleted from all comp play.
There should not even be a debate about this item and several others.
As I have said before, I am not convinced the quick-fix belongs in competitive TF2 but I do not believe that it can be thrown out without proper testing.[/quote]
It was tested before and tested again. Guess what, it still fucking sucks and should be deleted from all comp play.
There should not even be a debate about this item and several others.
HiipFirerocketslayIt's the last day of ESEA registration and I see no decision yet
reg got extended a week, even then it'll still probably be a last minute decision
[quote=HiipFire][quote=rocketslay][/quote]
It's the last day of ESEA registration and I see no decision yet[/quote]
reg got extended a week, even then it'll still probably be a last minute decision
It's the last day of ESEA registration and I see no decision yet[/quote]
reg got extended a week, even then it'll still probably be a last minute decision
I'm pretty sure there's a delay between start of season and when matches start, enough time to come to a reasonable decision
I'm pretty sure there's a delay between start of season and when matches start, enough time to come to a reasonable decision
ConsoleHiipFirereg got extended a week, even then it'll still probably be a last minute decisionrocketslayIt's the last day of ESEA registration and I see no decision yet
thank fucking christ
[quote=Console][quote=HiipFire][quote=rocketslay][/quote]
It's the last day of ESEA registration and I see no decision yet[/quote]
reg got extended a week, even then it'll still probably be a last minute decision[/quote]
thank fucking christ
It's the last day of ESEA registration and I see no decision yet[/quote]
reg got extended a week, even then it'll still probably be a last minute decision[/quote]
thank fucking christ
HildrethWARHURYEAHyou guys don't understand valve are going over our logs and watching all our games carefully.
I mean look at all the great things that has come from us using the improved whitelist last season:
1. Lowpander
2. Lowpander
3. Lowpander
4. Lowpander
5. Lowpander
6. Muuki
If that doesn't convince you that this is not just a step, but a gigantic leap forward for competitive tf2 than I don't know what will.
Fixed it for you.
I think I'm going to kill myself if you keep posting about Muuki and flexing all season someone please send help
[quote=Hildreth][quote=WARHURYEAH]you guys don't understand valve are going over our logs and watching all our games carefully.
I mean look at all the great things that has come from us using the improved whitelist last season:
[b]1. Lowpander
2. Lowpander
3. Lowpander
4. Lowpander
5. Lowpander
6. Muuki[/b]
If that doesn't convince you that this is not just a step, but a gigantic leap forward for competitive tf2 than I don't know what will.[/quote]
Fixed it for you.[/quote]
I think I'm going to kill myself if you keep posting about Muuki and flexing all season someone please send help
I mean look at all the great things that has come from us using the improved whitelist last season:
[b]1. Lowpander
2. Lowpander
3. Lowpander
4. Lowpander
5. Lowpander
6. Muuki[/b]
If that doesn't convince you that this is not just a step, but a gigantic leap forward for competitive tf2 than I don't know what will.[/quote]
Fixed it for you.[/quote]
I think I'm going to kill myself if you keep posting about Muuki and flexing all season someone please send help
Might as well play hl at least the game doesn't turn into a shitfest when unlocks are flowing.
Might as well play hl at least the game doesn't turn into a shitfest when unlocks are flowing.
everyone: [img]https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/4/1.0[/img]
slin: [img]https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/1/1.0[/img]
slin: [img]https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/1/1.0[/img]
featherseveryone: https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/4/1.0
slin: https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/1/1.0
everyone:
https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/4/1.0
slin: -_-
fixed
[quote=feathers]everyone: [img]https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/4/1.0[/img]
slin: [img]https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/1/1.0[/img][/quote]
everyone: [img]https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/4/1.0[/img]
slin: -_-
fixed
slin: [img]https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/1/1.0[/img][/quote]
everyone: [img]https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/4/1.0[/img]
slin: -_-
fixed
b4nnyAny experience from S14 QuickFix is pretty much invalidated due to the two recent (as in post-s14) nerfs, which are:
- All mediguns now allow medics to move as fast as scouts
- The build rate of the charge was reduced from +25% to +10%.
...
There is a lot going for the Quick-Fix, which makes it a complicated weapon to pinpoint what specific changes would balance it, but in my experience, the issue with the Quick-Fix was that you would have perpetual uber advantages (which forced both teams to run it so that they wouldn't get steam rolled at middles). By reducing the build rate, that problem may or may not have been eliminated, but the point is that we can't know unless we actually test it. Most of us know from experience that closing out a 10% advantage is extremely hard to do, so it might be a non-factor like most of the other items unbanned at this point.
you mean +15% i was wrong
it still builds faster than a flat +10% charge rate because you are always building when you are healing with it, it's not 37 sec vs 40sec. pretty sure slin or someone said the best medics build at an average of 50-55 sec. Let's be generous and say 45, maybe that 50-55 sec was skewed by some really shit medics. That 5 seconds could also be the amount of building time wasted on arrows missing or hitting enemies, or Medics spawning alone.
That 8 seconds of difference is 20% uber.
13 seconds is 32.5%. 18 seconds is 45%.
also p sure the healing scouts thing isn't really a huge deal considering holy shit you can jump your medic across mid
The weapon has been changed so it should be re-evaluated with testing.
the short circuit and disciplinary action were also nerfed in the MYM update, wrangler was nerfed post s14 as well, and was nerfed, what, five times after we last checked to see if it was overpowered?
you don't have to test things if they're obviously fucking stupid
Don't forget there are plenty of downsides to running the Quick-Fix as well which, of course, have been completely ignored in this thread and people are acting like it's the greatest weapon with nothing but upsides. Let me remind you: your buffs are 50% smaller, leaving everyone unhealthier, especially your flank classes, which can be easily abused.
Can it? Can you walk through Soldier spam to take a flank fight with your extra 27 scout health? Can you win that fight fast enough before their combo jumps at you? Is it actually possible to win fights based on that extra initial health, fast enough to decisively win before it decays? Can you kill their Medic and hold their Uber advantage repush as well?
I mean it's indisputable that you can win fights based on staying at mid range and trading spam while outhealing. Is it actually possible to win fights based off of having more overheal? Without the QF team disengaging? Which scenario happens more often?
You are not invulnerable while your charge is active, leaving you susceptible to all kinds of burst damage like coordinated spam, sticky traps, heavies, snipers, sentries, etc.
Oh yeah, 6s would definitely be improved by more heavies, snipers, and sentries.
Your medic may often get inadvertently blast jumped out of position making it much trickier to heal soldiers and demos who tend to jump around a lot.
This "downside" is just as valid as "you can accidentally kill yourself with the atomizer so its balanced."
The main problems were not that you could jump your medic around or that it healed faster, which people seem to be focusing on. My team won the S14 LAN so I promise you I understand how the Quick-Fix works and what the actual problems and overpowered strengths of it were.
...
With the upsides being reduced and those downsides still being as prevalent as ever, people may decide that it's not worth running at all, which I find most likely.
The ideal situation is that the standard decision of running default Medigun would remain just as viable after these changes and you wouldn't be forced to run Quick-Fix because the other team is running it. If that is achieved, the situation where both teams run Quick-Fix becomes an extremely unlikely one, and one that the teams that force that upon themselves should be forced to deal with. Only by playtesting can we determine if that is actually what will happen. It might not. But lets find out. If it's a problem, everyone agreed we can take the same approach as we did with the Atomizer and BASE Jumper and reban them.
Here's my philosophy - the jumping is the most broken part of the weapon on principle, and if the rest of the weapon is even barely usable, it should be banned. The idea that Medic can fly away from fights he can't win is absurd in that people are actually considering allowing it. It's even more absurd that that sort of playstyle is actively encouraged by the fact that the Quick-Fix is better in no-Uber fights due to better healing and can build Uber faster than Medigun can, while also being idiot-proof and taking 0 effort.
There are only three possible outcomes for this. One, it's banned. Two, it's useless and nobody uses it. Three, it isn't useless or banned, and people use it, and we have to deal with Medics who can jump away further than Soldiers can chase them.
Quick-Fix deserves a retest just as much as testing to see if whipping my Engineer to set up a fast Wrangled Level 3 would be a fun, skill-indexed, balanced addition to the metagame.
Sure, go ahead. Test it. Just make sure you ban it after you test it.
[quote=b4nny]Any experience from S14 QuickFix is pretty much invalidated due to the two recent (as in post-s14) nerfs, which are: [list]
[*] All mediguns now allow medics to move as fast as scouts
[*] The build rate of the charge was reduced from +25% to +10%.
[/list]
...
There is a lot going for the Quick-Fix, which makes it a complicated weapon to pinpoint what specific changes would balance it, but in my experience, the issue with the Quick-Fix was that you would have perpetual uber advantages (which forced both teams to run it so that they wouldn't get steam rolled at middles). By reducing the build rate, that problem may or may not have been eliminated, but the point is that we can't know unless we actually test it. Most of us know from experience that closing out a 10% advantage is extremely hard to do, so it might be a non-factor like most of the other items unbanned at this point.[/quote]
[s]you mean +15%[/s] i was wrong
it still builds faster than a flat +10% charge rate because you are always building when you are healing with it, it's not 37 sec vs 40sec. pretty sure slin or someone said the best medics build at an average of 50-55 sec. Let's be generous and say 45, maybe that 50-55 sec was skewed by some really shit medics. That 5 seconds could also be the amount of building time wasted on arrows missing or hitting enemies, or Medics spawning alone.
That 8 seconds of difference is 20% uber.
13 seconds is 32.5%. 18 seconds is 45%.
also p sure the healing scouts thing isn't really a huge deal considering holy shit you can jump your medic across mid
[quote]The weapon has been changed so it should be re-evaluated with testing. [/quote]
the short circuit and disciplinary action were also nerfed in the MYM update, wrangler was nerfed post s14 as well, and was nerfed, what, five times after we last checked to see if it was overpowered?
you don't have to test things if they're obviously fucking stupid
[quote]Don't forget there are plenty of downsides to running the Quick-Fix as well which, of course, have been completely ignored in this thread and people are acting like it's the greatest weapon with nothing but upsides. Let me remind you: your buffs are 50% smaller, leaving everyone unhealthier, especially your flank classes, which can be easily abused.[/quote]
Can it? Can you walk through Soldier spam to take a flank fight with your extra 27 scout health? Can you win that fight fast enough before their combo jumps at you? Is it actually possible to win fights based on that extra initial health, fast enough to decisively win before it decays? Can you kill their Medic and hold their Uber advantage repush as well?
I mean it's indisputable that you can win fights based on staying at mid range and trading spam while outhealing. Is it actually possible to win fights based off of having more overheal? Without the QF team disengaging? Which scenario happens more often?
[quote]You are not invulnerable while your charge is active, leaving you susceptible to all kinds of burst damage like coordinated spam, sticky traps, heavies, snipers, sentries, etc.[/quote]
Oh yeah, 6s would definitely be improved by more heavies, snipers, and sentries.
[quote]Your medic may often get inadvertently blast jumped out of position making it much trickier to heal soldiers and demos who tend to jump around a lot.[/quote]
This "downside" is just as valid as "you can accidentally kill yourself with the atomizer so its balanced."
[quote]The main problems were not that you could jump your medic around or that it healed faster, which people seem to be focusing on. My team won the S14 LAN so I promise you I understand how the Quick-Fix works and what the actual problems and overpowered strengths of it were.
...
With the upsides being reduced and those downsides still being as prevalent as ever, people may decide that it's not worth running at all, which I find most likely.
The ideal situation is that the standard decision of running default Medigun would remain just as viable after these changes and you wouldn't be forced to run Quick-Fix because the other team is running it. If that is achieved, the situation where both teams run Quick-Fix becomes an extremely unlikely one, and one that the teams that force that upon themselves should be forced to deal with. Only by playtesting can we determine if that is actually what will happen. It might not. But lets find out. If it's a problem, everyone agreed we can take the same approach as we did with the Atomizer and BASE Jumper and reban them.[/quote]
Here's my philosophy - the jumping is the most broken part of the weapon on principle, and if the rest of the weapon is even barely usable, it should be banned. The idea that Medic can fly away from fights he can't win is absurd in that people are actually considering allowing it. It's even more absurd that that sort of playstyle is actively encouraged by the fact that the Quick-Fix is better in no-Uber fights due to better healing and can build Uber faster than Medigun can, while also being idiot-proof and taking 0 effort.
There are only three possible outcomes for this. One, it's banned. Two, it's useless and nobody uses it. Three, it isn't useless or banned, and people use it, and we have to deal with Medics who can jump away further than Soldiers can chase them.
Quick-Fix deserves a retest just as much as testing to see if whipping my Engineer to set up a fast Wrangled Level 3 would be a fun, skill-indexed, balanced addition to the metagame.
Sure, go ahead. Test it. Just make sure you ban it after you test it.
[*] All mediguns now allow medics to move as fast as scouts
[*] The build rate of the charge was reduced from +25% to +10%.
[/list]
...
There is a lot going for the Quick-Fix, which makes it a complicated weapon to pinpoint what specific changes would balance it, but in my experience, the issue with the Quick-Fix was that you would have perpetual uber advantages (which forced both teams to run it so that they wouldn't get steam rolled at middles). By reducing the build rate, that problem may or may not have been eliminated, but the point is that we can't know unless we actually test it. Most of us know from experience that closing out a 10% advantage is extremely hard to do, so it might be a non-factor like most of the other items unbanned at this point.[/quote]
[s]you mean +15%[/s] i was wrong
it still builds faster than a flat +10% charge rate because you are always building when you are healing with it, it's not 37 sec vs 40sec. pretty sure slin or someone said the best medics build at an average of 50-55 sec. Let's be generous and say 45, maybe that 50-55 sec was skewed by some really shit medics. That 5 seconds could also be the amount of building time wasted on arrows missing or hitting enemies, or Medics spawning alone.
That 8 seconds of difference is 20% uber.
13 seconds is 32.5%. 18 seconds is 45%.
also p sure the healing scouts thing isn't really a huge deal considering holy shit you can jump your medic across mid
[quote]The weapon has been changed so it should be re-evaluated with testing. [/quote]
the short circuit and disciplinary action were also nerfed in the MYM update, wrangler was nerfed post s14 as well, and was nerfed, what, five times after we last checked to see if it was overpowered?
you don't have to test things if they're obviously fucking stupid
[quote]Don't forget there are plenty of downsides to running the Quick-Fix as well which, of course, have been completely ignored in this thread and people are acting like it's the greatest weapon with nothing but upsides. Let me remind you: your buffs are 50% smaller, leaving everyone unhealthier, especially your flank classes, which can be easily abused.[/quote]
Can it? Can you walk through Soldier spam to take a flank fight with your extra 27 scout health? Can you win that fight fast enough before their combo jumps at you? Is it actually possible to win fights based on that extra initial health, fast enough to decisively win before it decays? Can you kill their Medic and hold their Uber advantage repush as well?
I mean it's indisputable that you can win fights based on staying at mid range and trading spam while outhealing. Is it actually possible to win fights based off of having more overheal? Without the QF team disengaging? Which scenario happens more often?
[quote]You are not invulnerable while your charge is active, leaving you susceptible to all kinds of burst damage like coordinated spam, sticky traps, heavies, snipers, sentries, etc.[/quote]
Oh yeah, 6s would definitely be improved by more heavies, snipers, and sentries.
[quote]Your medic may often get inadvertently blast jumped out of position making it much trickier to heal soldiers and demos who tend to jump around a lot.[/quote]
This "downside" is just as valid as "you can accidentally kill yourself with the atomizer so its balanced."
[quote]The main problems were not that you could jump your medic around or that it healed faster, which people seem to be focusing on. My team won the S14 LAN so I promise you I understand how the Quick-Fix works and what the actual problems and overpowered strengths of it were.
...
With the upsides being reduced and those downsides still being as prevalent as ever, people may decide that it's not worth running at all, which I find most likely.
The ideal situation is that the standard decision of running default Medigun would remain just as viable after these changes and you wouldn't be forced to run Quick-Fix because the other team is running it. If that is achieved, the situation where both teams run Quick-Fix becomes an extremely unlikely one, and one that the teams that force that upon themselves should be forced to deal with. Only by playtesting can we determine if that is actually what will happen. It might not. But lets find out. If it's a problem, everyone agreed we can take the same approach as we did with the Atomizer and BASE Jumper and reban them.[/quote]
Here's my philosophy - the jumping is the most broken part of the weapon on principle, and if the rest of the weapon is even barely usable, it should be banned. The idea that Medic can fly away from fights he can't win is absurd in that people are actually considering allowing it. It's even more absurd that that sort of playstyle is actively encouraged by the fact that the Quick-Fix is better in no-Uber fights due to better healing and can build Uber faster than Medigun can, while also being idiot-proof and taking 0 effort.
There are only three possible outcomes for this. One, it's banned. Two, it's useless and nobody uses it. Three, it isn't useless or banned, and people use it, and we have to deal with Medics who can jump away further than Soldiers can chase them.
Quick-Fix deserves a retest just as much as testing to see if whipping my Engineer to set up a fast Wrangled Level 3 would be a fun, skill-indexed, balanced addition to the metagame.
Sure, go ahead. Test it. Just make sure you ban it after you test it.
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