we may not know how to bridge the gap between casual and competitive in game, but we got the youtube bridge on lock
"although its been debated for a while, its become pretty clear as of recent why valve avoids endorsing it [comp tf2]: they don't like the meta right now"
yeah i dont care what he says in the other 12 minutes there's no way im taking this guys opinion seriously
yeah i dont care what he says in the other 12 minutes there's no way im taking this guys opinion seriously
This is actually a really well made vid that highlights a lot of the issues with valve and the game atm.
The only issue I think might not have been brought up enough is the actual lack of diversity in specialist roles- 3 defense specialists and 2 pick specialists that are easily counterable by holding certain positions doesn't exactly do much to alleviate stalemates but yeah valve probably won't do much to change that.
Another issue with valve being slow is that people are going to be less willing to allow everything or accept changes that seem like they might lead to a worse meta when the balance changes might come 18 months down the line. Contrast to CS or Dota where players are able to deal with a worse game for maybe a month when the effects of these changes become extremely apparent in their highly viewed competitive matches.
The only issue I think might not have been brought up enough is the actual lack of diversity in specialist roles- 3 defense specialists and 2 pick specialists that are easily counterable by holding certain positions doesn't exactly do much to alleviate stalemates but yeah valve probably won't do much to change that.
Another issue with valve being slow is that people are going to be less willing to allow everything or accept changes that seem like they might lead to a worse meta when the balance changes might come 18 months down the line. Contrast to CS or Dota where players are able to deal with a worse game for maybe a month when the effects of these changes become extremely apparent in their highly viewed competitive matches.
ZestyAnother issue with valve being slow is that people are going to be less willing to allow everything or accept changes that seem like they might lead to a worse meta when the balance changes might come 18 months down the line. Contrast to CS or Dota where players are able to deal with a worse game for maybe a month when the effects of these changes become extremely apparent in their highly viewed competitive matches.
Exactly. People easily quit this game. I remember during the global whitelist meeting where saam(or someone idk i dont remember too clearly) said that the initial whitelist change "nearly killed his team". Seriously? You were going to quit this game because of the unbanning of a weapon? Do you even like this game? If you're going to quit TF2 because of the temporary inconvenience from a few changes that helps the development of the game in the long run, I genuinely don't think you like this game enough. You might like it enough to play it, but you don't love it enough to care about its future. Quite like the difference between liking and loving a person imo.
Exactly. People easily quit this game. I remember during the global whitelist meeting where saam(or someone idk i dont remember too clearly) said that the initial whitelist change "nearly killed his team". Seriously? You were going to quit this game because of the unbanning of a weapon? Do you even like this game? If you're going to quit TF2 because of the temporary inconvenience from a few changes that helps the development of the game in the long run, I genuinely don't think you like this game enough. You might like it enough to play it, but you don't love it enough to care about its future. Quite like the difference between liking and loving a person imo.
RipTideZestyAnother issue with valve being slow is that people are going to be less willing to allow everything or accept changes that seem like they might lead to a worse meta when the balance changes might come 18 months down the line. Contrast to CS or Dota where players are able to deal with a worse game for maybe a month when the effects of these changes become extremely apparent in their highly viewed competitive matches.
Exactly. People easily quit this game. I remember during the global whitelist meeting where saam(or someone idk i dont remember too clearly) said that the initial whitelist change "nearly killed his team". Seriously? You were going to quit this game because of the unbanning of a weapon? Do you even like this game? If you're going to quit TF2 because of the temporary inconvenience from a few changes that helps the development of the game in the long run, I genuinely don't think you like this game enough. You might like it enough to play it, but you don't love it enough to care about its future. Quite like the difference between liking and loving a person imo.
That's because there's actual money on the line there. They stick out because its their job. No one here other than b4nny plays this game for a living. Why should we make out hobby less fun and put its future at risk with a slow development team that is too understaffed to do anything right.
Exactly. People easily quit this game. I remember during the global whitelist meeting where saam(or someone idk i dont remember too clearly) said that the initial whitelist change "nearly killed his team". Seriously? You were going to quit this game because of the unbanning of a weapon? Do you even like this game? If you're going to quit TF2 because of the temporary inconvenience from a few changes that helps the development of the game in the long run, I genuinely don't think you like this game enough. You might like it enough to play it, but you don't love it enough to care about its future. Quite like the difference between liking and loving a person imo.[/quote]
That's because there's actual money on the line there. They stick out because its their job. No one here other than b4nny plays this game for a living. Why should we make out hobby less fun and put its future at risk with a slow development team that is too understaffed to do anything right.
I mean if meta changes cause you not to enjoy the game then it's not like there's any other incentive to play it. Saying "if you're a real fan you'd continue playing it no matter what and just have to deal with shit" is a kind of elitist attitude that doesn't exactly help grow the playerbase. My point was in CS and dota people are more willing to stick with it because there's a financial incentive and the changes are likely to last for much less time if they prove unpopular.
RipTideExactly. People easily quit this game. I remember during the global whitelist meeting where saam(or someone idk i dont remember too clearly) said that the initial whitelist change "nearly killed his team". Seriously? You were going to quit this game because of the unbanning of a weapon? Do you even like this fucking game? If you're going to quit TF2 because of the temporary inconvenience from a few changes that helps the development of the game in the long run, I genuinely don't think you like this game enough. You might like it enough to play it, but you don't love it enough to care about its future. Quite like the difference between liking and loving a person.
is this supposed to be an attack on people who... don't like the game enough? lmao
Growing as a community involves appealing to as many people as possible. That's just an immutable fact. Maybe you have some restrictions on what kind of people you're trying to appeal to, but in general you need to keep everything as open as possible in order to grow. This definitely includes people who just kinda like the game as opposed to those who blindly adore it and will keep playing no matter how much it's fucked with. There's nothing wrong with deciding that a small change is enough to keep you from enjoying the game anymore. I personally agree that it's an overreaction to quit over small changes (it's not like the GRU were unbanned or anything) but deriding people over what they find enjoyable is pretty ridiculous.
Also I think that it's kinda short sighted. Anyone who's played this game for even 6 months has been around long enough to feel the burn of Valve's development hell. A weapon unban could easily be the tipping point after years of abuse for people.
Exactly. People easily quit this game. I remember during the global whitelist meeting where saam(or someone idk i dont remember too clearly) said that the initial whitelist change "nearly killed his team". Seriously? You were going to quit this game because of the unbanning of a weapon? Do you even like this fucking game? If you're going to quit TF2 because of the temporary inconvenience from a few changes that helps the development of the game in the long run, I genuinely don't think you like this game enough. You might like it enough to play it, but you don't love it enough to care about its future. Quite like the difference between liking and loving a person.[/quote]
is this supposed to be an attack on people who... don't like the game enough? lmao
[spoiler]
im dumb enough to take this seriously so
Growing as a community involves appealing to as many people as possible. That's just an immutable fact. Maybe you have some restrictions on what kind of people you're trying to appeal to, but in general you need to keep everything as open as possible in order to grow. This definitely includes people who just kinda like the game as opposed to those who blindly adore it and will keep playing no matter how much it's fucked with. There's nothing wrong with deciding that a small change is enough to keep you from enjoying the game anymore. I personally agree that it's an overreaction to quit over small changes (it's not like the GRU were unbanned or anything) but deriding people over what they find enjoyable is pretty ridiculous.
Also I think that it's kinda short sighted. Anyone who's played this game for even 6 months has been around long enough to feel the burn of Valve's development hell. A weapon unban could easily be the tipping point after years of abuse for people.[/spoiler]
don't read the comment section
don't read the comment section
fuck
great video though
don't read the comment section
fuck
great video though
bearodactyl"although its been debated for a while, its become pretty clear as of recent why valve avoids endorsing it [comp tf2]: they don't like the meta right now"
yeah i dont care what he says in the other 12 minutes there's no way im taking this guys opinion seriously
He's right though, Valve doesn't like the current Meta.
Also if you bother to watch the rest of the video he's highly complimentary of the competitive community, the gamemode we've created and highly critical of Valve's approach.
It is a typical mindset of people to dismiss other points of view so easily because they don't want to read it and miss out on the main body of their argument. It's this sort of close mindedness that hurts human society in general, though thankfully we're just nerds arguing about a video game.
yeah i dont care what he says in the other 12 minutes there's no way im taking this guys opinion seriously[/quote]
He's right though, Valve doesn't like the current Meta.
Also if you bother to watch the rest of the video he's highly complimentary of the competitive community, the gamemode we've created and highly critical of Valve's approach.
It is a typical mindset of people to dismiss other points of view so easily because they don't want to read it and miss out on the main body of their argument. It's this sort of close mindedness that hurts human society in general, though thankfully we're just nerds arguing about a video game.
I guess i just don't think the way others do because personally i'm perfectly willing to play any version of TF2 as long as it can benefit the game in the long run.
RipTideI guess i just don't think the way others do because personally i'm perfectly willing to play any version of TF2 as long as it can benefit the game in the long run.
You and B4nny should sit down for tea some time
You and B4nny should sit down for tea some time
Valve don't endorse any existing competitive mode because no mode has the numbers playing that gives them confidence in it. This chart
does not lie. TF2 players do not play competitive to the extent that we are collectively little more than a statistical error. There is more interest in Versus Saxton Hale and cp_orange than competitive. It's not that Valve don't like the meta, it's that the overall player base doesn't and we've had enough in game announcements and news posts that most players at least know something is going on.
I've done my own study on this with both TF2 servers and CSGO servers. The CS ones had 88% of the population playing defuse mode maps (de_) in the competitive rotation, and CS has many times the numbers of players that TF2 has. It's a completely different world, alternative modes that are supported in client are an afterthought for the community. It is completely dominated by the primary competitive format, the polar opposite of where TF2 sits.
If Valve want to keep developing the game having competitive events that create highly viewed streamable content is a great idea but they're not reacting to a popular groundswell of grassroots opinion. That's why they (probably justifiably) have little faith in existing competitive formats to become mass market successes and they're experimenting with their own version from a very basic level.
It's correct that the speed of changes is the primary problem though, it will be pure luck to hit on a winning format with one update a year. If the development method is to iterate changes and collect feedback.... where is the next iteration?
[img]http://imgur.com/1OSJUFM[/img]
does not lie. TF2 players do not play competitive to the extent that we are collectively little more than a statistical error. There is more interest in Versus Saxton Hale and cp_orange than competitive. It's not that Valve don't like the meta, it's that the overall player base doesn't and we've had enough in game announcements and news posts that most players at least know something is going on.
I've done my own study on this with both TF2 servers and CSGO servers. The CS ones had 88% of the population playing defuse mode maps (de_) in the competitive rotation, and CS has many times the numbers of players that TF2 has. It's a completely different world, alternative modes that are supported in client are an afterthought for the community. It is completely dominated by the primary competitive format, the polar opposite of where TF2 sits.
If Valve want to keep developing the game having competitive events that create highly viewed streamable content is a great idea but they're not reacting to a popular groundswell of grassroots opinion. That's why they (probably justifiably) have little faith in existing competitive formats to become mass market successes and they're experimenting with their own version from a very basic level.
It's correct that the speed of changes is the primary problem though, it will be pure luck to hit on a winning format with one update a year. If the development method is to iterate changes and collect feedback.... where is the next iteration?
One thing I agree with him about (that lots of people don't seem to understand) is that we should balance classes around their intended role instead of trying to make them full-time viable. For example, take a look at Overwatch. It has plenty of heroes who are only good at defense. They're garbage at offense, that's why running them full time is a bad idea (no matter what game mode you're playing). And people are fine with it because that's how the game's supposed to work.
I think saying valve doesn't like the meta was a bad way of phrasing, which in hindsight I regret not rewording. I know valve's decisions are driven by what the wider public is open to and the only reason they're hesitant of community competitive is because they know throwing it to a mass audience probably won't catch a bite. My intention with that intro was to just simplistically say valve has decided alternative options rather than just adopting the existing scene. I think it would have been a good idea to elaborate more on that, sorry I didn't.
ZestyThe only issue I think might not have been brought up enough is the actual lack of diversity in specialist roles- 3 defense specialists and 2 pick specialists that are easily counterable by holding certain positions doesn't exactly do much to alleviate stalemates but yeah valve probably won't do much to change that.
This is an interesting perspective too, that hadn't even crossed my mind as a problem that needs discussion. I'll keep that in mind for the future.
[quote=Zesty]
The only issue I think might not have been brought up enough is the actual lack of diversity in specialist roles- 3 defense specialists and 2 pick specialists that are easily counterable by holding certain positions doesn't exactly do much to alleviate stalemates but yeah valve probably won't do much to change that.
[/quote]
This is an interesting perspective too, that hadn't even crossed my mind as a problem that needs discussion. I'll keep that in mind for the future.
I think it was Clockwork that also made a good point about the Pyro (although he didn't put it exactly like this), it's specialism is giving people who have no fps experience at all a way to play the game.
I think that's correct and it should really be positioned as a class players move on from once they get a certain amount of experience and learn to aim. That it has a niche use in terms of denying uber pushes into certain last points is probably about as much as it should be capable of at the top level.
So yeah, fuck pyro
I think that's correct and it should really be positioned as a class players move on from once they get a certain amount of experience and learn to aim. That it has a niche use in terms of denying uber pushes into certain last points is probably about as much as it should be capable of at the top level.
So yeah, fuck pyro
This script went through so many minor revisions and big changes, so I'm glad that people are getting useful discussions out of it at the very least, even if they disagree with some of the points.
RipTideI guess i just don't think the way others do because personally i'm perfectly willing to play any version of TF2 as long as it can benefit the game in the long run.
If you like tha game then why would you want it to change?
If you like tha game then why would you want it to change?
There was a small issue he addressed in the video about how 5CP is flawed, which I dislike how a lot of the community thinks about 5CP. I also dislike it when people complain about how it's so stalematey, but no ones tries doing anything about it. The leagues continue to only put 5CP maps in the map pool and unban weapons that promote stalemating. I've heard the community talking about how more game mode diversity would help, but they contradict the reasons to why 5CP is flawed. 5CP is too stalematey, but Payload and A/D doesn't really solve that issue; These game modes are literally stalemates. 5CP is uninteresting to watch and is becoming stale; A subjective opinion which I don't think is the root of the problem. The problem to way 5CP is uninteresting IMO is the quality of players in the scene; Interesting and exciting players can make any game mode look interesting. If there was more soldiers like Mike, then I would support MGE as an official game mode. The game mode is not the problem, it's the players.
huelessThere was a small issue he addressed in the video about how 5CP is flawed, which I dislike how a lot of the community thinks about 5CP. I also dislike it when people complain about how it's so stalematey, but no ones tries doing anything about it. The leagues continue to only put 5CP maps in the map pool and unban weapons that promote stalemating. I've heard the community talking about how more game mode diversity would help, but they contradict the reasons to why 5CP is flawed. 5CP is too stalematey, but Payload and A/D doesn't really solve that issue; These game modes are literally stalemates. 5CP is uninteresting to watch and is becoming stale; A subjective opinion which I don't think is the root of the problem. The problem to way 5CP is uninteresting IMO is the quality of players in the scene; Interesting and exciting players can make any game mode look interesting. If there was more soldiers like Mike, then I would support MGE as an official game mode. The game mode is not the problem, it's the players.
Attack/defend is not a stalemate. If neither team is progressing in AD that means that the defenders are winning the round, in 5CP it means neither team is winning the round, thats a stalemate. In AD one team always has an incentive to push, they will lose if they dont. In 5CP a lot of the time its just better to stay where you are than risk anything.
Attack/defend is not a stalemate. If neither team is progressing in AD that means that the defenders are winning the round, in 5CP it means neither team is winning the round, thats a stalemate. In AD one team always has an incentive to push, they will lose if they dont. In 5CP a lot of the time its just better to stay where you are than risk anything.
huelessThere was a small issue he addressed in the video about how 5CP is flawed, which I dislike how a lot of the community thinks about 5CP. I also dislike it when people complain about how it's so stalematey, but no ones tries doing anything about it. The leagues continue to only put 5CP maps in the map pool and unban weapons that promote stalemating. I've heard the community talking about how more game mode diversity would help, but they contradict the reasons to why 5CP is flawed. 5CP is too stalematey, but Payload and A/D doesn't really solve that issue; These game modes are literally stalemates. 5CP is uninteresting to watch and is becoming stale; A subjective opinion which I don't think is the root of the problem. The problem to way 5CP is uninteresting IMO is the quality of players in the scene; Interesting and exciting players can make any game mode look interesting. If there was more soldiers like Mike, then I would support MGE as an official game mode. The game mode is not the problem, it's the players.
As far as 5cp is concerned, there is a bit of a push for non-5cp maps (koth bagel is probably the best example right now) but adding new maps to the official rotation mid season clearly doesn't make any sense.
Also, don't use a granary or snakewater stalemate to determine how stalematey a game can be. It's painful to watch at the top level simply because at that level, you can't afford to make mistakes. When you're playing against froyo or se7en they're not going to sympathize with you because you botched a push, but rather convert and capitalize on your mistakes. That's just what the top level of tf2 does.
Of course if there were more MGEMike and ShaDowBurn soldiers that could play as well as they could in the scene (with developer support), it's highly likely that there would be more players like them. But all the "old blood" has kind of left to do something else with their lives. Whether it's onto other esports or just because the real world has offered better opportunities with more sustainability is irrelevant because there aren't exactly a ton of new and upcoming players that can readily challenge the established elites. Not to knock on some of these guys (some of them are insanely good actually) but it's just highly unlikely that there's going to be another super competitive season with well-established players that can take games off of each other and make the top of the skill bracket incredibly interesting and worthwhile to watch and follow.
Also great video FUNKe. There were probably one or 2 things that I would have worded differently but you've addressed them well.
As far as 5cp is concerned, there is a bit of a push for non-5cp maps (koth bagel is probably the best example right now) but adding new maps to the official rotation mid season clearly doesn't make any sense.
Also, don't use a granary or snakewater stalemate to determine how stalematey a game can be. It's painful to watch at the top level simply because at that level, you can't afford to make mistakes. When you're playing against froyo or se7en they're not going to sympathize with you because you botched a push, but rather convert and capitalize on your mistakes. That's just what the top level of tf2 does.
Of course if there were more MGEMike and ShaDowBurn soldiers that could play as well as they could in the scene (with developer support), it's highly likely that there would be more players like them. But all the "old blood" has kind of left to do something else with their lives. Whether it's onto other esports or just because the real world has offered better opportunities with more sustainability is irrelevant because there aren't exactly a ton of new and upcoming players that can readily challenge the established elites. Not to knock on some of these guys (some of them are insanely good actually) but it's just highly unlikely that there's going to be another super competitive season with well-established players that can take games off of each other and make the top of the skill bracket incredibly interesting and worthwhile to watch and follow.
Also great video FUNKe. There were probably one or 2 things that I would have worded differently but you've addressed them well.
Don't go asking for valve to fund our tournaments when we only get 2 intercontinental LANs per year (m a x i m u m), and when the only organisations in TF2 are low-level UK ones and froyotech.
riotbzDon't go asking for valve to fund our tournaments when we only get 2 intercontinental LANs per year (m a x i m u m), and when the only organisations in TF2 are low-level UK ones and froyotech.
who said anything about asking for funding? I mentioned that they don't fund tournaments, but that was an observation, not a complaint.
who said anything about asking for funding? I mentioned that they don't fund tournaments, but that was an observation, not a complaint.
YeeHawhttps://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/5w3toi/tf2s_state_of_specialists/de7c7at/
"We have an upcoming tournament run by someone permabanned from at least one TF2 community for stalking and harassment."
wait who are they talking about?
"We have an upcoming tournament run by someone permabanned from at least one TF2 community for stalking and harassment."
wait who are they talking about?
YeeHawhttps://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/5w3toi/tf2s_state_of_specialists/de7c7at/
lmao, this guy actually wholeheartedly believes in the invite illuminati
classic reddit
lmao, this guy actually wholeheartedly believes in the invite illuminati
classic reddit