Also fixing the clipping on the side of shit-house so that bombing balcony isn't awful.

this, and fix clipping on spire. also, for the record, if ammo got fixed on badlands i wouldnt really be sad about banning the cow mangler any more

This is not entirely unrelated to the topic, but does anyone know how to change spawn times on a specific cap point? (In hammer editor)

Maybe make it so you don't see glitchy shit when you stand on top of the vents on last also.

Pushing out of and into last are really bad on badlands right now imo- the entrances into last are tiny chokes that can easily be denied by pyro/sentry/loose cannon or main which pushes you in through low ground. You also give up so much position to cap the point in a tiny enclosed area on low ground that the strategy of "push teams into spawn with position and play the cap" almost never works on badlands. You usually have to go for the kills and you normally have to uber really early so an advantage push normally won't get that many. Pushing out is also really bad because of all the flank routes in lobby people have previously mentioned. This normally means that most of the time on the map is spent with one team in lobby and the other on their last (a MUCH larger % of the time than happens on other maps) which is a shame because I really like the 2nd and mid.

This never seemed to be the case before the cap time change, but at the same time people have changed how they play so I don't know if that's the only issue with the last.

Unless you're against this man

Just remove them entirely, aside from trollers and "grieffers" nobody uses them and it would open up more space for cool solly/ demo bombs

+ people don t hit their heads on these vents when they rollout

I can go ahead and make some minor changes if someone compiles me a full list of what should be done.

No crazy ass retard changes to the map direction please thx

This also helps clear trash when you're pushing out, so I actually really like that.

@Hyce can you make a version of the map with a 6 second increase on the spawn timer and an ammo change and maybe this change too if people are liking it.

I've worked on a "fixed version" for a few hours now. I haven't compiled it and shit yet cuz I have some stuff to do but here is a changelog:

AMMO CHANGES:
-Changed haunter ammokits to from small to medium
-Added small ammokit on balcony
-Removed small ammokit in top lobby.
-Changed the other small ammokit in top lobby to medium. (Small ammo is 20%, 20+20=40, medium ammo is 50%, -so this is technically an increase in ammo)

SMOOTHING/FIXING SPLASH:
-Added proper blockbullets in choke (you can now do the ramp slide) & stonebridge.
-Removed the hole between planks on spire, blockbulleted the fence and made it nonsolid. Plank is slightly resized.
-Changed a barrel model next to stonebridge - Also mirrored this
-Clipped away a spot on the spire you could stand on thin air
-Lamps in lobby, shithouse and house are now nonsolid, except for the lamp above last point.
-Mirrored clipping on a fence you could stand on in a chokepoint
-Mirrored clipping in house, as well as clipped the roof. As a consequence you can no longer stand on top of the bullskull.
-Smoothed out clipping and moving around in choke.
-Smoothed wooden bridge on mid slightly
-Fences in lobby are now nonsolid but clipped.
-Removed the huge shit attached to the resup house & above haunter. Should make rocket jumping off the wall easier.
-Making the leaves of rooves nonsolid, in order to allow rocket jumps.
-Properly blockbulleted boxes on balcony
-Patched up roof on last to make it more smooth gameplay wise. If anyone wants the vents and shit completely removed instead, I can easily arrange this as well.
-Blockbulleted the bottom parts of house walls, so they eat fewer rockets.
-Removing the attached piece of house above diagonal.

GAMEPLAY CHANGES:
-Removed hiding spot behind the fence on balcony, due to it only being clearable from dropdown.
-Buffed a hiding spot outside of balcony, which is considerably more difficult to use than the one removed.
-Added a tire to balcony, behind the fence. You can now jump to spire as scout without using the winger or the boston basher. Not a huge change but it may improve accessibility to the spire ever so slightly.
-Didn’t make skybox bigger, but removed wierd clipping in the ceiling that restricted vertical player movement.
-

I made this change, in a slightly different way.
-Removed tiny metal railings at floor level on balcony, next to the crates.
-The hiding spot in house, is now changed, but visual clues make it consistent with how the rest of the interior looks.

GAME LOGIC:
-Decreased spire cap time from 8 to 7 seconds

As mentioned above, I don't know how to change spawn wave times. If a mapmaker could help me, or I can send my file to them so they can do it that would be awesome.

Sounds good. Thanks for putting this together.

Thanks, but make sure we don't end up removing all the hiding spots in this map as they are part of it's specificity and they allow for cool/ potentially spectacular plays and backcaps.

Hyped to see those changes ig soon

Only removed that 1 spot, and I intend to not change gameplay much at first (when I do get around to larger changes, I'll make sure they're not controversial), but rather fixing bugs.
Some hiding spots that originally were bugs, will be changed but will be visible to the eye.

Alright thanks for claryfing that

.

Indeed

would it be too difficult to fix all this shit at last
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-57nIkvyfNE

While I agree that the last cap time should be reverted, I disagree totally with the ammo thing.

More ammo = more spam = less room to maneuver in chokes. Less ammo on the map is a FEATURE that advantages players with careful ammo management (until the shit mangler was allowed).

About the last, I also disagree. First of all it's very easy to retake lobby from last. there is 3 spam angles from main, top left, top right that can hit anything in lobby and drop down.

Then once you have lobby it's possible to break a spire hold by pushing players to ressuply then house in order to kill the medic/sniper before committing outside of lobby.
You could also use a sentry on last and push with your engie.
or you could use long range kritz from balcony to break a stalemate.
or you could push your own sniper balcony or trash to get a pick.
or you could get spies.
or even dumber ideas

OK none of the above will work 100% of the time but it's the same for every push, for every point, for every map.
Point is, you're stuck tactically and insead of coming up with solutions you ask for your problem to be magically removed. Teams like lowpander last season showed that it's still possible to innovate in this game, so step up.

No, I simply hadn't done it yet. Now I have.

Engie will always die in 1v1 due to disadvantages in dm fights.

Not if you're getting spammed.

Not if you're getting spammed.

Tactics like these lower your winrate. Something that works 99% of the time and something that works 1% of the time cannot both be put in the same category because "they don't work 100% of the time"

These tactics only really work if your opponents don't know how to do anything properly. And if they don't, how did you get pushed back to your own last?

Collaide the point of engie is to not be bothered checking all the potential hiding spots for backcaps in order to push faster, and then make use of ressupply to quickly change class. Of course engie doesnt take 1v1s.........

Another moronic thought. Keep on sacking 1 player over and over or relying on sniper picks to break stalemates or one one player doing clockwork-esque plays then. That's the kind of idiotic mentality that leads to 0/0 badlands games.

When you play PCWs i guess you play all of them to win at all costs right? Well I got news for you : PCWs are to practice tactics. You'll never get good at those alternative tactics if you never do them. Then you get stuck on your last of badlands and are one round down, and you have no clue what to do.

Just because something cannot be said to work 100% of the time does not mean it won't work at all, at any level. If you only put thought into your game beyond 'I must win at all times' you would be able to create innovative plays.
In ancient war battles good generals often made moves to expose false weaknesses in order to make their opponent react (oh his left flank is opened, what a fool!), but because they were aware of said weaknesses they could prepare accordingly (oh shit he has cavalry hidden there!) and keep the initiative.

But yeah it's probably easier for you to fix the map.

Twiggy if you think that the only reason teams struggle to push out of badlands last against good teams is "lack of tactics" you're delusional. The spire respawn times ruin the map.

@collaide
When you say you changed the hiding spot in house, do you mean you removed it? If so, I don't think you should remove hiding spots, especially ones like those because that one is extremely easy to check AND prefire, so I don't think it's broken in any way.

Collaide these changes are great, thank you.

Is it possible (or is it a good idea) to smooth out some of the really fucky terrain on second like the stuff under gray bridge and around flank's resup?

Collaide thanks for being a badass.

While the changes would've taken 5 seconds to make I've not had the 5 seconds this weekend. Graduation or some such.

Glad to see badlands getting much needed fixes.

This and also I think it was said earlier, but the reason that a lot of the other 'fixing badlands' projects have failed is because the mapper has taken too much creative license and added/removed useless shit and done more than the bare minimum that people wanted. I'm all for fixing the stupid clipping and properly mirroring stuff but looking through some of your changes a lot of the stuff seems kind of unnecessary (i.e., the tire to jump to spire: afaik nobody has ever complained about how it's impossible to push out of last because you need to properly basher jump onto spire, don't see any reason to add it)
Also, it appears that you took the liberty of removing some of the hiding spots in house and above resupply by diagonal, as well as the vent on red second that you can hide on. I feel like these sort of spots add another dimension to the game and are nowhere near game breaking (for example, the TLR spot on red second is difficult to get to but if you are good at rocket jumping it can be useful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVkgelgTax0). On spire as well, people are so used to stuff like the crack in the wooden planks and the little clipped area that allows you to basically float in thin air that I don't see any point in removing them, besides it's not like they have a huge impact on the game either. I don't want to have another case of granary_abortion where a mapmaker decides to make a few much needed changes but then goes all out and removes all the hiding spots that make the map interesting...

fantastic changes

would it be possible to get a change of color and skybox too, so it would look more like the screenshot paulsen posted?

I'd rather keep it how it is. The current look is different from other maps and still doesn't have a performance impact

good point, i've just always been a fan of the process/product aesthetic

No, the hiding spot is just not a bug anymore. (valve forgot to clip wall there)

That's not a problem, if people don't like it, they can comment on it, and I can revert it. That thing took 15 seconds to make and will take 2 seconds to remove.

"Also, it appears that you took the liberty of removing some of the hiding spots in house and above resupply by diagonal, as well as the vent on red second that you can hide on."
I didn't remove hiding spot in house. Don't comment if I haven't published the map yet lol.
And there was a hiding spot above diagonal? I wasn't even aware of that.
I just went into the game and checked, there is no hiding spot above diagonal?

Firstly, this spot can be seen from mid, secondly it's too much work for too little gain. Thirdly, the reason I removed it was so you could stand on the metal thing above haunter allowing you to do a proper rocket jump off the wall. The intention was not to remove it.

So your argument is we should keep bugs like the pixelwalk on spire just because we're used to them? You even say yourself, it's not like they have a huge impact on the game. But if they don't have a huge impact on the game, why not improve them?