STOP WAR! Eat mample syprup dane stop madness, end war, 8 pages, 1 suruyp, nooooooooooooooooooooooooo

how about we limit scout to 1. It will be better honestly

Technically, he did start the Challenge Cup as a 6s tournament that had Scout limited to 1, a diverse map pool, and the save and ban system.

If I remember correctly, he changed it to 7s because of the fact that he was getting shit on for trying something different, and decided that he wanted to do something that he believed in with the tournament [Prolander] instead of trying to be experimental 6s.

look dude, i'm sympathetic to your thought process here, seriously. there are issues with 6's, there are issues with 5cp, it's not ideal that certain classes are run full time and it's an issue that the format hasn't been examined in any significant way in 6 years. however, the way you are attempting to tackle these issues is at best stubborn, and at worst an active detriment to competitive team fortress 2. you are intentionally working against the only section of the tf2 community that is actually attempting to discuss and solve the issues that 6's has. if you have spent more than a few weeks reading these forums, you will have seen the innumerable threads that we have detailing issues with the 5cp gamemode, issues with the whitelist, issues with a lack of diversity in class options, etc. (many of these being the same issues that you are attempting to solve with your format). you are throwing the last decade of attempts at progressing the format in the face of the community who has worked tirelessly to do so by introducing a completely new format that doesn't take any measured or thoughtful approaches to the issues that 6's has beyond "make it different". i probably ought to quote the post i made in the sigafoo cup thread, which is even more relevant at this point than it was then:

in making this format, you are taunting the 6's community and producing no meaningful results, whether that is your intention or not. also, its worth pointing out that the 6's community is the only community which has been shown to have a sustained interest in supporting the game and leagues monetarily (as well as effectively being the only serious competitive community since highlander has essentially collapsed), so you are setting yourself up for failure by showing absolutely no willingness to work with the existing community

I agree that 1 less scout would be interesting to see, but every time someone brings this up I can't imagine a class filling the scout role that wouldn't make things worse.

• Heavy/Engie/Pyro slow the game down quite a bit and make trying to force a nightmare.
  
• Sniper would be the most obvious class, but as we always see with teams running snipers there is the inevitable "wait for our sniper to get a pick". Granted, it might not be so bad if both teams are running sniper.
  
• Spy would just be kind of a joke, I could see it catching people off guard but you're still waiting around for picks.

Ofc this is just speculation, I kind of wish the original sigafoo cup didn't change last second, I would have liked to see how 6v6 scout limit 1 testing would have panned out tbh.

Dropping 4K on a game-mode/league that will never achieve what you think it has the potential to reach.

The real shame is that 7v7's greatest potential is to further divide a community that badly needs to come together to reach the next level. He doesn't care about that.

The time for TF2 making it as an eSport may have already passed so maybe everyone should just accept that he can use his money and time the way he chooses. He clearly doesn't want to support bringing the community together but he wants to try and plant a feather in his own cap for making a new game-mode.

Congrats, a bunch of 6's players will win your money again and the next day will not care at all about your format.

i mean engie could be somewhat viable with gunslinger but then he'd be a slower scout with big area denial
heavy would be viable as well with unlocks but that'd just be unfun to play as/against
maybe pyro will finally be able do something in the pyro update? hopefully?

sigafoo sigafoo sigafoo
can u give me ur reasons as to why having an optimal way to play the game is a bad thing
also you have to not use buzzwords like stale and give evidence to support your claim
pls and ty

ah yes everyone who doesn't play scout, soldier, demo, or medic (or sniper) is retarded

"we're not elitist guys i swear!"

shit like this is what makes new players not want to join the 6s community

stop posting you stupid fucking care bear

no one cares how much the 6v6 meta triggers you

why do you post here all day when you don't even play

projection much? No one is stopping players from playing heavy, spy, or pyro in hl. You're just asking to get 5-0'd and wasting everyone's time because you're playing 5v6.

people like you who don't understand why the 6's meta even exists make me sad
no its not because all the 6's players got together and arbitrarily picked 4 classes we liked the best
valve made scout soldier and demo the best classes at switching between offense and defense quickly
medic is required and better at healing than engineer so there's your 4 classes
we dont hate the other classes (except pyro fuck pyro), but we do think its retarded and annoying when they slow the game down

Im pretty sure hes calling them retarded because they BASH 6V6, only because they dont want to learn the game outside of their pub main. Those people wont join the 6s community either way

are we going to pretend that heavy pyro mains arent retarded

http://i.imgur.com/gz69CaZ.png

i dont understand but hey at leeast he tries to explain

Prophunt is a community created game mode that's easier to spectate for those who don't know the game and about as reminiscent of the tf2 pubs as 6s, yet more popular.

If you don't learn to play prophunt, you're just an ignorant player that can't be bothered learning to play it.

If anyone tries to make a format that is more reminiscent of the game that is actually popular to attract new players, they are destroying the community.

Maybe a bit of an unpopular opinion here, but as a player the worst part about sigafoo's earlier 7v7 tournament wasn't actually the gamemode, but rather the tournament organization. I remember at the time of the event, the biggest complaint most people had was that in order to play the tournament they basically had to be on call for like 7 hours straight b/c of the map/weapon pick-banning as well as the matches themselves. Once the games actually started they weren't that bad to be completely honest, and the most "gay" thing about them was learning to play with and against the specific skillsets of the players you had in the server (thanks spamfest n_n).

6v6 to me is the more competitive gamemode- but I don't see why people have to pretend like it is the only thing that can ever exist. I personally love playing non-6s tournaments when I have the chance, be it ultiduo, 4s, HL, or this stuff. Variety can be fun, and sigafoo can use his money however he wants. Also, fwiw if you have a stock 6s tournament you are literally feeding froyotech the money. New maps or alternative gamemodes give other teams better chances to upset them (dk gave froyo close matches in the last 7v7 tournament, and evl beat froyo in the new maps cup) so if anything I would think this kind of stuff would be welcomed in at least that aspect.

A recent newbie 6's tournament had more signups than an recent actual HL season :)

I notice its often the new players who really desire to try the essential bareboned version of 6v6 with everyone on the cookiecutter classes and a minimum of unlocks, becuase it leads to them having a fun experience, and being outaimed by the same classes or outplayed is way more acceptable since, it is fighting "on equal terms". Tbh I haven't watched any 7v7 game yet but i do remember 8v8 with two medics and two demos and then later revised to two medics and one demo, and then finally one medic and one demo and it died out, why? harder to organise than 6s6, the mappool was shit, and it felt very stale compared to 6s6. i wouldn't see how it would be different to arrive at the same conclusion the community did years ago after watching the matches. I don't see how this mode would be a big venue for new people to get into comp tf2 as playing 5cp with bigger numbers makes the amount of experience that comes along with each player weigh in very hard in holding and pushing, making invidual aim or "fools luck" when you try to make plays way less likely. tbh i think something along 4v4 is an more interesting format, if you look to create easier venues for new players to get a first taste of competitive along 6v6.

also highlander is crumbling at a harder rate than sixes becuase when a playerbase declines, the pool of potential people actually willing to organise everything including 8 others is also smaller, and new people will more likely just want to join a team than to make one, i don't blame them. Anyone who has ever been a team captain/organiser/ "begging potential two mercs to join and be approved 10 mins over official start time guy while sending the info for mumble and the connect and the STV forth and back and in the meantime two people bitch in mumble you won't stand a chance in the scrim you're organising guy", knows it takes a lot of endurance and a bit of confidence and a VERY big friendslist.

For something a little more relevant to the league, what’s up with the map pool? Right now, it consists of 4 PL, 3 KotH, and 1 A/D. Obviously missing from that is any 5CP maps at all… and why? The original Challenge Cup had several 5CP maps, so what happened that deemed them not worthy of playing? I seem to recall nobody having any serious problems from the spectator’s PoV, so did the people who played in the cup actually give feedback of it being worse than the other 3 gamemodes? It seems like a bad idea to throw away viable game modes when the objective of the league is to push a less “stale” meta.

[I personally enjoyed watching the 5CP more than I did the PL maps, anyway…]

what if instead of pick/ban items 7v7 had pick/ban offclasses?

he said in his post that when he reviewed the games afterwards the 5cp maps were "sluggish and didn't really play well"

Well I like to think that not everybody would run sniper during the whole map but instead we would see 1 team running pyro, other heavy, sniper or spy. It could be played just like muuki does, changing class depending on the situation.

If you think about it, scouts are the one that slow the game the most because he's more powerful than any other class, nobody mentally healthy would force a 1v1 vs scout unless it's close quarters. We would see more bombs from roamer trying to force ubers for example since that scout who will just meatshot you there doesn't exist anymore. Some teams may as well just stick with pocket scout and my point would be not valid anymore, but that would mean that the flank is wide open and your scout or roamer can sneak behind.

idk it would seem pretty good to me.

Stop beeing toxic, trying out new stuff is what we need. The 6s meta we have isnt perfect, it has always had a stale meta and experimenting with new formats never hurts. Just try and be more constructive with your critisism rather than just say "this shit is stupid"

we've said this shit is stupid before

we also gave explicit reasons why this shit is stupid

i also want a perma widowmaker on my team to speed things up

Some people aren't exactly meaning to be toxic, but trying to reinvent the wheel (figuratively) at this point isn't going to get you anywhere really. Had this been tried when competitive tf2 was in its infancy stages, you'd likely have a better response. But at this point, it's very likely in the best of all parties to support 6v6 instead of a new mode.

#238 i'm mostly a highlander player and if you think 6s has "always had a stale meta" then you either

a) pay attention to 6s even less than me which is a feat and a half

b) don't actually know what meta means (hint: it's more than just class selection, but even class selection has changed over the ages)

or c) are blind

i've been paying attention to the 6s meta since 2009 and the amount of meta changes over the years has been plentiful. in no particular order (and not nearly exhaustive): when everyone rolled out on badlands through house, people played normal viaduct because viaduct pro didn't exist quite yet (which was a different meta compared to pro because no connector etc), the Battalions Backup-Sydney Sleeper meta on normal Viaduct, watched engineer-heavy-pyro cycle between which class was a more common last defense class, the shotgun-gunboats emergence and switches between pocket-roamer, the rise of scout dominance (can you believe that back in the day people used to think scout wasn't the carry class?), demo pocket, heavy pocket, the season where everyone ran 2 natascha heavies because it was broken and allowed, x6's blob strat, everyone emulating that, people stopping the blob strat because it got countered, the season where people ran double gunslinger on gravel pit, the roamer role and how it is played has changed drastically since 2009, crossbow and every meta shift it caused by existing, etc.

sure for the most part 2 scout, 2 soldier, 1 demo, 1 medic with offclassing has mostly been the same (aside from some really terrible seasons, seriously 4 natascha heavies in every match was boring af) but if you count that as only the meta then you don't get the word. the actual offclassing itself (both in amount and what classes and where), the weapons people use (and how those affect how the game/maps are played, e.g. the rise of boston basher scouts to build medics instead of pockets), and what maps are played and how maps are played are just as important if not more so than what the cookie cutter setup is to the meta of 6s.

e:

also if anyone thinks the meta is stale in 6s due to class selection then the easiest counter argument is logically that means the meta in highlander has never changed since the class selection has been the same for its entire life. that also isn't true (the meta not changing), but it forces them to either change their viewpoint or take on a hypocritical belief.

http://i.imgur.com/avS6ppV.png

I just want to go on record saying that while I did enjoy the tournament (and partially because I had a chance to cast it, which is always fun), I find many types of TF2 enjoyable. I enjoy 6v6, Highlander, 7v7, Ultiduo, Bball, and even Pyro Dodgeball.

6v6 is superior to 7v7 prolander for tournament play. Here's a few reasons why:

• Faster matchmaking makes 6v6 a more scalable format. 7v7 prolander has the same problems that 9v9 HL has.
  
• Smaller team sizes are cheaper for sending teams to in-person events / LANs
  
• Pick/bans slow down a tournament, creating more downtime
  
• The downtime you create with pick/bans does not add additional fun to the game. People tend to ban the same stuff every time, and most of the bans were used against the OP weapons that 6v6 already bans anyways.