LAST

This is another really easy change, so I'll probably try it out just to see what happens.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3492731/revenant/cp_metalworks_rc3_last.jpg

Last seems like it gives defenders quite a bit of leeway in terms of super turtely behaviour regarding the area behind the last point. What I've done in the above picture is block up the gap so that players can't just drop onto the point for free (see older versions of cold/warmfront), but actually have to expose themselves to defend the point realistically. However, if I was going to do this, I would probably have to get rid of the boxes on top of the storage container, so that you could choose left or right to rotate from behind onto the point.

The only thing that worries me about this is that it seems to deny the last minute jump to the point from spawn sort of behavior which seems to be the sort of thing that could be really exciting, so I'll be sure to check on that to see if there are ways to make it possible, while still denying some of the more sentry gun/heavy approaches to defense.

THANK YOU SCORPIO THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

thanks for taking initiative in improving the map that you created.

Best new map I've seen in a while, thanks for your work.

I honestly hope this map stays in the rotation. With Scorpio taking the initiative to improve it I think it could be a pretty fun map. As far as last goes, another popular sentry spot I noticed while playing/watching metalworks was under the metal bridge. I don't think it's something that should be changed, but I thought it was interesting that I would see guns getting put up in that spot pretty often.

I think the middle change is good, the second change with the hut could just as easily be a metal sheet or fence, and would probably flow with the map better. As for the door placement on second, It'd seem to be a bit extreme to move the door entirely, and I think it would have a negative impact for rollouts for the entire team. The change at last could possibly work, but I'm unsure if it would introduce new sightlines for the sniper or not.

you could also try putting a window like badlands mid has, above the main lower mid entrance for demos so they can live longer than 5 seconds

Could you...make it prettier?

great map and a keeper

Hopefully this map makes it into s14, especially with the changes being made to it.

I think that the medium health pack should be a bottle / small health pack at the second point. I think the defending team doesn't have too much difficulty defending the second point while standing in that room, and a team defending last shouldn't face even more difficulty pushing out to retake second point when the other team has a medium health pack to fall back to.

I also think the respawn timers are pretty long across the entire map.

I hope the map stays, I didn't get to play it sadly but from a spectator point of view I feel it made for some great games. Yes a little stalematey at times but still great.

For your last idea I would suggest leaving the barrel and box on the left of the picture. Removing everything might make that side of last too flat and boring imo.

Also I don't know if this would work but a making a way to access the dropdown between mid and 2nd without having to go into the enemy's line of sight could open opportunities for some surprise under pushes.

ded

Yah, I'm not really sure if there is anything outside of nobuilding the area under the bridge which could resolve that, and you pretty much don't ever want to use nobuild. Engineers are used to being able to build anywhere, and a random spot where they can't build is very disconcerting. I'll keep that area in mind though.

Thanks. Yah, the second door change could be pretty huge, but its not super complicated to do, so I'm tempted to just try it and see what happens. It could affect rollouts, but you would be surprised how many people have told me the rollout is too flat and boring. Changing that door could help mix things up a bit, maybe make for some alternative paths instead of just walking through bridge-shutter-shutter-bridge.

It also helps with breaking up the two shutter doors. As it stands now, if you peak through shutter from last to between second, someone could open the other shutter door and wreck you with spam (or a sniper chilling at the window door to middle getting a shot through the two shutters to last). Splitting those up might make it a bit easier to peak out as you try to repush 2.

That seems interesting, I'll check what the geometry there is like and see if I can get it set up. Do you think an adjustment to the upper connector at mid needs anything as well? More room to move?

No, I refuse. This ain't no date you taking home to meet the parents, THIS IS TF2MAPS SON! GETCHA WARFACE ON!

can you make the skybox daytime? I saw a day skybox on a frag video on metalworks and it looked really nice.

for the fix at last you should just remove one of the sides that blocks off the point, instead of simply closing it off entirely. it could create a problem where it makes it possible to sit in spawn as sniper and snipe from there, idk, but i think the area behind the point is generally too enclosed.

I like the healthpack idea. I hadn't really thought about it before, and I'd always been really happy with how that room looks/feels that I didn't want to change it. But yah, that seems like it could really help with repushes to second.

So the respawn timers are actually pretty similar to the other comp maps in tf2. Default spawn waves for 5cp are (usually) 10, meaning that you have a spawn time of anywhere from 10 seconds to 20 seconds. At start, before anyone captures middle, that is the default behavior for any map. You have to actually go in and put a command in a certain entity so that when the map starts it changes the respawn time.

When you capture middle, I don't have that change. I feel like the first forward is pretty close to middle, so if decrease the time on the waves, it seems like it would be pretty hard to take mid after killing some players on their team (or even wiping them). This is the exact same on both granary and badlands; neither changes the spawn waves for capturing middle.

When you capture the enemy's second point, you get a -3 to your respawn wave (7 instead of 10), which seems alright, and with the healthpack change, might make recapturing second more feasible. I'm not sure I really want to adjust that any lower, as it seems like that would make a defense of last / repush of 2 almost impossible.

So thats my reasoning on the respawns. I mean, I could try adjusting the spawn at the start (9 instead of 10), but I don't think there is much precedence for that, and most other comp maps don't go in for it. It seems like it could make pushing their last point harder than it is currently.

Edit: Additional respawn info to check http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Respawn_times , especially granary and badlands.

Yah, I'll probably keep some part of the barrels/crates.

As for dropdown, I don't really think I can do that at this point, not without really screwing up how that hallway works. Its most useful when people are transitioning to alley, and a scout or something who is watching hall drops out of it really quickly.

Wouldn't take long, but TBH I really appreciate the darker look. I feel like I've got the lighting down so it isn't pitch black or "where did that roamer come from". I know a TON of people really dig the process/gorge color palate, but metalworks was always built to be dark.

I think I'll try closing off the gap to point first, to see how that affects things, and then maybe I'll experiment with opening up the metal windows. I'm not just worried about sniper, I think you could sit a heavy behind there too, and be a huge nuisance. He may not be able to see over the fence, but no one else can really see him and he can just smack people out of the air while spun up. Or, he could sit on the handrail-box thing behind it as well and shoot over the metal fence.

I'll keep it in mind, but it would be limited I think.

I know some people were complaining about only 1 spawn door at last, other than that I have no major problems with the map. Except how many places to hide there are, but that's not a deal-breaker by any means. Being able to move from mid to second as scout without ever touching the ground was fun lol.

Yeah it'd be great if there was more than one door if a team wipes at mid it's not difficult for a demo to get to last and sticky the door

I'm with milehighmilitia that last should be more open rather than being closed off even further. While defending last and sitting behind all that cover, I feel more of a sense of being trapped than a sense of safety.

Maybe something like this:

http://i.imgur.com/ONZTj8V.jpg

Remove the wall in green and place a crate in the pink. It could allow for more movement around the point, and encourage the defenders to hold a bit further outside of spawn because they could use the crate as a defensive position.

Also to aid movement a bit:

http://i.imgur.com/6fFYKZg.jpg

Remove these objects, they don't serve much purpose and just get in the way. Also prevents a heavy from climbing up into an annoying spot.

My (following) comments on the map should probably be taken with a grain of salt, given that I didn't play/scrim it for any longer than the week it was in rotation.

Regarding mid, I think one reason it is so soldier-centric is the easy splash spots, in particular near the enemies' right-side door. The area from which soldiers can potentially bomb is a huge width to watch, compared to most other midfights, which is also probably significant.

Another thing I notice is the ridiculously long spam lanes, especially between last and 2nd but also between mid and 2nd. Too easy to hit damage at chokepoints without exposing yourself to harm.

At the last point, if you decide to use your proposed change of closing off that opening, rather than removing the boxes beside the point I'd suggest moving them a couple playerwidths away from the spawn, so that there is still a gap on that side and still a barrier, but neither is as, shallwesay, "prominent." I would also favour opening up the area behind the point, some of those little walls seem unnecessary and obstrusive.

Anyway, overall a nice looking and unique map. I had fun playing it for the one week my team was willing to. Please don't change the tileset/visual style, I like it how it is.

listen to the b4nny