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Now, I've played pub games for years. I've won and lost thousand of games, and lot of these losses were still really fun to play. But that match wasn't fun at all. It wasn't an experience I would recommend to anyone I know.
We got rolled, I got rolled, I never felt like I was usefull at all, or part of something, more like the burden that's making the team fall apart.

And, as said ^ I've been playing pub for years. I'm a 'try-hard' in pub, generally considered a 'pubstar' ( that Lobby was a good reality check, now I know i'm terrible :) ). So I'm thinking.. what if it was a new player. Someone who played the game for like 2 months.

I (sadly) probably played the game for more hours than lot of competitive players. Yet I couldn't do any good.
I have no doubt that a new'ish player trying his hand at lobbies will get destroyed and lose any will to participate in that scene.
I've looked up the stats of some players I know ( Players I've been with in pub games, players who are also rolling everyone in pub too ) and they're all doing terrible in lobbies too.

I know something needs to be the 'first step', and that it'll always be an high step, due to the absence of absolutely mediocre players like you see in pubs. But the step seemed so high to me, that I just gave up and instantly went back to pub games.
Playing with complete idiots who you consider 'burdens' to your team isn't fun.
But being that burden yourself, on a team that actually cares about winning ( and not just pub deathmatchers ), it's even worse.

It's seems that you could play 1000's hour of pub TF2 and still be terrible in a lobby, unless you were gifted to begin with, or something.
However long you play in pub servers, you're gonna be terrible in lobbies.
And there's no middle ground. You can't really practice, because pub servers aren't really challenging anymore at this point, but you're still not good enough for lobbies.

Those players I looked up on the lobby stats... Most of them just played a few games, just like me. And I still see them all the time in pubs. It seems like they did exactly like me. They thought they were good enough, they tried, they failed and did terrible, they gave up. I feel like the competitive scene must lose tons of players like this.
Obviously, some players don't give up, either because they're naturally better at the game so they don't feel like shit after their first lobbies... Or they're just highly motivated to keep on going after getting destroyed. I don't know.

I still watch competitive games, still love it. But I don't think I'll ever take part in a lobby again. If anything, I COULD deal with the fact that I'm doing bad. But I don't want to screw over my team everytime I play, it's just pointless.

I've heard about lobbies sometime being labelled 'newb lobbies', which I assume are lobbies for 'pubstars' like me who sucks against average lobby players. But I haven't seen one in the few days I tried that stuff.

my two cents, I guess.

I kinda of agree with the team stacking side of things. A trueskill system would be fucking fantastic for lobbies and pugs, but the amount of work to develop something like that is pretty ridiculous.

To 'question', I think we can mitigate that problem by bringing in more new players. Just imagine, if we can bring in a huge influx of players, the skill gap will widen, there will be many more players your level and lower. This is an initiative that EVERYONE can benefit from. From top tier players with visibility, viewer numbers, and a bigger fan base, to lower players with teammates that are of the same skill level, and teams to play against at the levels. If we can bring in a new generation of TF2 players, you can grow at there pace and eventually you will find a great community to involve yourself in the competitive scene! No worries, we want to help not only grow the game but the experience for everyone alike!

I'm just going to post what I've been doing, which has been starting up newbie mixes. If anyone wants to help, just message me on steam or here or wtvr. I'll make a post sometime about them if people want, maybe an official article?

I think one thing that could be amazing for the community would be a website idea that I had a little while ago where people could gamble items/metal on competitive tf2 matches. This will push traders, pubbers, etc. into the competitive scene, and I think people will want to play a lot more if they could participate in other ways. At the moment, most people in 6v6 are just tf2 "purists" IMO.

I see those options as sort of a long term project. I think that would be a bit resource intensive and/or something we can't implement immediately and effectively. I like the idea and won't knock you for it, and if you can make it work that would be simply amazing, but I think right now telling a friend about comp tf2 goes a long way. Having a great centralized tf2 site with great articles and videos and forums is our greatest weapon at this point.

Also a huge thanks to newbie mix, you guys are doing wonders for the community. Keep up the good work!

I would like 2 help with this ill msg you sunday when i come back from the forest

Thanks! We have these running right now. :)

I love the irony of criticizing someone for racial slurs while using sexist language to make the point that you are too scared to cast. Please, if we want to gain the respect of a larger community, all the racism, homophobia, and sexism must stop. I get what you are saying- I don't want sponsors seeing players using extremely offensive racist language. But that doesn't mean sexist or homophobic language is acceptable. It's a responsibility for the entire TF2 community to embrace.

And sorry for the personal attack, John, but this has been something that's been bothering me for a while and double-sidedness of your post just was too perfect to pass up. Also, I just wanted the opportunity to acknowledge that just because you have a vagina, doesn't mean you can't cast.

I don't have time to read this whole thread right now but I'd like to propose something to enigma.
A lot of streamers like to go in game with their twitch.tv channel url as their user name to promote it, what if we made the same thing but using the profiles on this site?
I'd like to go pubbing with teamfortress.tv/user/alfunkso as my user name, but the current url format is too long to use it (teamfortress.tv/profile/user/alfunkso). I think that if enough people did this, it would get the attention of the curious casual players and lead them to this site.

This is not something that potentional sponsors will see. There are certain times when things are acceptable. PG13 stuff is generally fine. People are free to shit, ass, cock, piss, dick, vagina, meat drapes, bearded clam all they want. Slurs regarding sexual orientation and race are generally the only think that are completely off limits, within reason. With the gaming demographic, there will always be strong language. Strong language and hate speech are 2 completely different things.

I'm also not innocent of saying things I shouldn't say. I've made asian jokes directed at Tyrone. The hardest thing to deal with is that when you're comfortable saying something to a friend, you lose connection with what that may sound like to the masses. I'm guilty of it just as much as anybody else.

He said, "I'm a huge vagina," not "I have a vagina." In this case, he's using vagina in place of pussy, which is often used as a slang term for both vagina and coward.

Anyway, I posted this on natf2:

You can play lobbies even if you're bad. Yes, you will do badly at first and probably drag down your team. But you don't have to be "skilled" or "highly motivated" to get over it - just accept that it's impossible to be good at something when you're just starting out, accept defeat and learn from it. It is not a character flaw to be a newbie, it's a natural state which everyone goes through, and anyone who gives you a hard time over it is just refusing to acknowledge that they were that newbie at some point themselves.

I was just suggesting that if we wanted to attract more sponsors and a larger audience (maybe even more females), our public TF2 figures should stand above the all offensive language that is often associated with the gaming demographic. It adds absolutely nothing to the game and will turn away demographics we are seeking to include. The purpose of expanding competitive TF2 is to become more inclusive, right?

Everybody needs to share their personality or it becomes boring. Look at the high profile guys in SC2. Go watch Live on Three. That's the type of thing TF2 needs. Be yourself. Strong language is not going to keep people away. Racism, hate and being a bunch of douche canoes will.

noted

Enigma, what would be a comfortable eta for getting that newbie content on this site? Just curious because that would be a large part of the plan for this initiative.

I don't think teamfortress.tv/user/alfunkso would fit. teamfortress.tv/alfunkso would be better, although it still might not fit.

i suggest having our "official" tf2 holiday during the off season where there is little tf2 activity around the globe. i am sure there are pockets of times when esea/etf2l and all the other major leagues around the world are not running at the same time. i think that leaves us with more time to commit to promoting tf2. syncronize it with all our pockets of local communities around the world and make it a weekend event.

teamfortress.tv is a great base to work off from and i suggest this to be our global meeting place for all communities to interact, synchronize and get things done together.

besides reddit, we need more social media, tap on the current generation of people who love having information pushed to them. that means a twitter and facebook account for teamfortress.tv (i know there are facebook/twitter haters but still, they are untapped mediums and will help give comp tf2 more attention).

I have no idea what's involved, cost or otherwise, with setting up servers, but it would be an incredible first step if someone could set up a handful of 12- and 18-person public servers using competitive rulesets/unlocks, nospread, nocrits, ALLTALK OFF (!!!!), etc.

I am not a competitive tf2er. I watch streams, watch casts, try and follow the scene a bit but I'm nowhere good enough to play with just about everyone on this site. I know about lobbies, but the process of getting one going is burdensome and it's shitty when you're terrible compared to the rest of your team. I couldn't imagine a pub medic trying out a 6v6 lobby and how terrible of an experience that would be. A pub medic playing a pub frequented by good players, though, would be less daunting. He or she wouldn't be waiting ~30 minutes for the match to start and everyone to get in the server, at least.

'Competitive pubs' would also allow for players like me to be exposed to competitive maps that I see on streams. I think I could count on one hand how often I've played Snakewater and Gullywash. I've never even played Process. It was a bit disheartening to hear everyone at i46 shit on gravelpit because it's practically the only comp. map that I actually know and have played.

Again, no idea on the cost of these types of servers, but I would sure try and frequent them.

Good work gang. I hereby endorse this motion.

If no one is using the tf.tv domain someone could buy it and redirect it to teamfortress.tv and that could allow you to shorten the name needed in game.

tf.tv doesnt seem to be used right now
quick someone buy it

teamfortress.tv/shlaner

I feel really awkward replying here, because I don't really like to be noticed. Despite that I thought "maybe I notice some things other people don't." So why not?

Anyway, I think lots of people have great and valid ideas to bring to the table. It's just like any sort of bureaucratic system, when someone wants to help and inject new ideas, they are at a loss for words. I know it happened to me. I actually wrote a 16 page document to eXtine that Mesr forwarded to him. (oh youth! How silly you appear upon reflection.) I never got word back about it, and I think that must happen a lot, because there just aren’t enough people to handle all the input, and there isn’t enough organization. Everyone on eXtv and VanillaTV are doing their best, and I recognize that along with the rest of the community. I’m just suggesting that there might need to be a more accessible place for people to go when they want to put their ideas into action.

Someone previously mentioned paying attention to Highlander because of how much it's growing, and I wholeheartedly agree. I think the animosity between HL and 6's players kind of depends on this next UGC season. Now that there are going to be heavily *ahem* stacked invite players on UGC HL rosters, it provides a good litmus to how the whole community might react. Honestly, I think it'll be entertaining and I really hope to watch some of the matches. I hope we can get some good casters to really stick to a schedule and give people something to look forward to.

I will mention something I don't think is going to sit well. I see how a lot of streamers talk down about StabbyStabby's stream. "Why the hell does he get so many viewers when all he does is stream playing spy in pub." I can sort of empathize with their air of disdain at that fact, but it is a fact. Other than Lange's stream, and the occasional eXtv or VanillaTV match, during the daytime hours StabbyStabby usually (not always) gets the most viewers. I think it's multi layered really. He's very relateable, he interacts with his viewers, and he doesn't really put them outside their comfort zone. There's no glossary of terms that people watching have to learn. There's no need for questions about "why do you only have these players?" or "why can't you use the weapons." Anyone that's played pub tf2 can watch his stream and know what's going on. Someone who has barely gotten into competitive tf2 won't find any comfort in watching Pyyyour or Platinum or Lange's stream. It's too inaccessible to them.(No fault on their part, because I know they interact and try to answer questions when they can. Sometimes even other viewers in the chats will answer questions)

The MGE videos are some of them outdated, too long, and "foggy" in their intent. (ahem, looking at you Mesr) The kind of documents that were mentioned by Klanana really don't answer everything an emerging player has, and the list of mentors is far and few between. There's not much out there for HL and I think that's partly because it hasn't been "explored" enough, but also the only ones out there are about maps, not classes or team strategies. There isn't a streamer who is like Day9 and sits down with you and tells you what it is you want to know. I realize that after a point, there wouldn't be much to do because this game isn't necessarily built the same as Starcraft, so teaching and streaming it would be different.
I mean, obviously sitting on the low level competitive play, I’ve had my fair share of time to wax philosophic about all of this. A lot of the ideas in this thread are great, but I think that the real issue is that there’s not enough content to encourage new players, and there’s not really a… Hub if you will. There’s nowhere someone can go, and know for sure that is where they can get their questions answered. It’s all too spread out—the information, the various pub groups, the forums, the different leagues, where to go with suggestions. The only

The only way to really grow the community would be to solve this disjointedness first.

I can offer help with TFTV Twitter mentions or retweets/forum posts for whenever you guys schedule mixes.

Despite what some may feel on here, myself and the entire UGC admin staff want nothing more than to see competitive TF2 grow. We are all volunteers and choose to dedicate our time to help TF2 expand with no profit in mind. We all love the game just as much as anyone on here. The real issue we have, and ill be completely honest here, is the constant bias towards 6v6 play and failure to recognize highlander as a viable competitive option. I sincerely do want to work with those interested on here to bridge the gap between 6v6 and highlander so long as its a two-way street where both formats can benefit.

I will state here that I am completely open towards working with the competitive 6v6 community to help grow competitive TF2 in any way possible. As I have said before, I personally do not agree with the way 6v6 has evolved but at this junction my personal feelings are besides the point. I am willing to put that aside and help in any way I can; so long as it is mutually beneficial to both 6v6 and HL.

What are some ideas people have where this can happen? How can 6v6 and HL work together in a way that is mutually beneficial to both formats?

WE all have the same goal. Let's work together to see how far comp TF2 can go.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts (that's a saying, right?) that both kip and Sal would love to have you guest cast w/ them. And once you get the hang of it, there's clearly TONS of matches that can be casted, both highlander and 6v6. I know that I'll be following any and every cast that I can.

That Highlander tournament (more specifically the frag video made from clips of it) is what got me into comp highlander. I moved from there to 6s, and I'm loving all aspects of comp tf2 right now.

It'd be awesome if there was a youtube channel where some high level player watched a round or two of a mix and talk about the good and bad things that players did, just things they noticed about pushes and midfights and stuff.