the game is faster because of bow lol wtf u on about
Please Ban The Crossbow
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
JojoYeah I remember the days before the crossbow when med mains were non existant.
Oh wait, that wasn't the case at all. Sure some would quit but others would take their place.
adding something in isn't gonna go the same as taking it away my dude. its like heroin see, sure its no big before, but once youve got it if you just try to go cold turkey ur gonna get some real bad consequences
[quote=Jojo]
Yeah I remember the days before the crossbow when med mains were non existant.
Oh wait, that wasn't the case at all. Sure some would quit but others would take their place.[/quote]
adding something in isn't gonna go the same as taking it away my dude. its like heroin see, sure its no big before, but once youve got it if you just try to go cold turkey ur gonna get some real bad consequences
Yeah I remember the days before the crossbow when med mains were non existant.
Oh wait, that wasn't the case at all. Sure some would quit but others would take their place.[/quote]
adding something in isn't gonna go the same as taking it away my dude. its like heroin see, sure its no big before, but once youve got it if you just try to go cold turkey ur gonna get some real bad consequences
gemmit's basically a rescue ranger for medic (which is a BANNED weapon) so it should be banned
but your sentry is mobile and doesn't hit everything ;'(
[quote=gemm]it's basically a rescue ranger for medic (which is a BANNED weapon) so it should be banned[/quote]
but your sentry is mobile and doesn't hit everything ;'(
but your sentry is mobile and doesn't hit everything ;'(
Veccslicerougue you cannot tell me that the game isnt slow now compared to back before the bow
no please enlighten me on your great experience vecc
You great pre-crossbow medic with 1 season in s27 going 5-11 in open with your first log being on May 5, 2014 as scout in product hl.
Truly you can enlighten me on how the meta shifted in 2010 when crossbow came out and in 2013 when major changes happened to the crossbow way over my discussions with older medics such as lucrative and marxist.
You act like teams dont play of of health advantages currently. Many higher level teams play off of the other team being bad health. In fact ive literally heard people call to push in because "they are hurt and they are all probably standing still and getting arrowed, lets get through choke." There are also tiny uber advantages you get from people using arrows too much. In S25 nursey would literally tell me in all my demo reviews about how I was using crossbow too much and losing like 3-4% every time I missed a crossbow and how it would affect our pushes.
in my opinion crossbow should be slightly nerfed by valve but even if it stayed the same it shouldnt be banned
[quote=Vecc]slicerougue you cannot tell me that the game isnt slow now compared to back before the bow[/quote]
no please enlighten me on your great experience vecc
You great pre-crossbow medic with 1 season in s27 going 5-11 in open with your first log being on May 5, 2014 as scout in product hl.
Truly you can enlighten me on how the meta shifted in 2010 when crossbow came out and in 2013 when major changes happened to the crossbow way over my discussions with older medics such as lucrative and marxist.
You act like teams dont play of of health advantages currently. Many higher level teams play off of the other team being bad health. In fact ive literally heard people call to push in because "they are hurt and they are all probably standing still and getting arrowed, lets get through choke." There are also tiny uber advantages you get from people using arrows too much. In S25 nursey would literally tell me in all my demo reviews about how I was using crossbow too much and losing like 3-4% every time I missed a crossbow and how it would affect our pushes.
in my opinion crossbow should be slightly nerfed by valve but even if it stayed the same it shouldnt be banned
no please enlighten me on your great experience vecc
You great pre-crossbow medic with 1 season in s27 going 5-11 in open with your first log being on May 5, 2014 as scout in product hl.
Truly you can enlighten me on how the meta shifted in 2010 when crossbow came out and in 2013 when major changes happened to the crossbow way over my discussions with older medics such as lucrative and marxist.
You act like teams dont play of of health advantages currently. Many higher level teams play off of the other team being bad health. In fact ive literally heard people call to push in because "they are hurt and they are all probably standing still and getting arrowed, lets get through choke." There are also tiny uber advantages you get from people using arrows too much. In S25 nursey would literally tell me in all my demo reviews about how I was using crossbow too much and losing like 3-4% every time I missed a crossbow and how it would affect our pushes.
in my opinion crossbow should be slightly nerfed by valve but even if it stayed the same it shouldnt be banned
can we just get rid of the reverse fall off damage?
that's literally the most retarded attribute you could add to a projectile based weapon.
can we just get rid of the reverse fall off damage?
that's literally the most retarded attribute you could add to a projectile based weapon.
that's literally the most retarded attribute you could add to a projectile based weapon.
EasyEcan we just get rid of the reverse fall off damage?
that's literally the most retarded attribute you could add to a projectile based weapon.
Just because you said reverse falloff is the worst projectile attribute possible, Valve is going to buff pyro with homing reflects dodgeball style
[quote=EasyE]can we just get rid of the reverse fall off damage?
that's literally the most retarded attribute you could add to a projectile based weapon.[/quote]
Just because you said reverse falloff is the worst projectile attribute possible, Valve is going to buff pyro with homing reflects dodgeball style
that's literally the most retarded attribute you could add to a projectile based weapon.[/quote]
Just because you said reverse falloff is the worst projectile attribute possible, Valve is going to buff pyro with homing reflects dodgeball style
TF2's original design only includes slow HoT's (mediguns, dispensers) that force you to position somewhat close to one another as a downside, with the only exception being health packs which force you to wait for them to recharge and position in very exact spots (which usually favor particular teams or holding particular areas depending on the pack). This was actively chosen because all of the damage classes (except Pyro coz Pyro lul) did extremely high burst damage at their respective ranges, the intention being that stalemates would rarely happen because the damage in the game would generally always outpace the healing to an absurd degree, if you land good damage you could push on good damage.
Burst healing on the level of the crossbow has skewed the game pretty hard, because the game's damage numbers weren't designed around players being able to receive burst heals on a tiny reload timer with an infinite LOS requirement.
Take something like Gully's flank to 2nd, if you ate a good rocket back in the day you were boned, you hopefully had enough health after all the pressure to jump to your Medic otherwise you either walked up slowly (ancient Gully) or equalized up and then you waited for your 24 HP/s while your Scout was alone on flank, making your flank vulnerable and very easy to overrun.
Nowadays if you eat a good rocket you back up a couple steps and get crossbowed and the entire flank momentum basically gets reset. You need to sync damage before the xbow hits to land a kill or else you're not making much headway with the Medic up.
Plus it's basically a Scout buff, Medics are able to heal Scouts so much more often after they buffed the Crossbow's reload time + passive reload attribute because they can crossbow everyone else and spend less time healing everyone else directly and invest that time into Scout. If you tried to heal Scout as much in a no Crossbow world, you'd be forfeiting heals directly on your Soldiers/Demo.
Mind I just think they need to make it work off the crit heals mechanic and dump the passive reload stat, Medic's healing power is basically tied directly into crit heals and the crossbow completely ignores them which is pretty dumb. Players aren't supposed to receive good healing in combat unless they grab a pack, and Crossbow is pretty much ghetto packs in its current state.
TF2's original design only includes slow HoT's (mediguns, dispensers) that force you to position somewhat close to one another as a downside, with the only exception being health packs which force you to wait for them to recharge and position in very exact spots (which usually favor particular teams or holding particular areas depending on the pack). This was actively chosen because all of the damage classes (except Pyro coz Pyro lul) did extremely high burst damage at their respective ranges, the intention being that stalemates would rarely happen because the damage in the game would generally always outpace the healing to an absurd degree, if you land good damage you could push on good damage.
Burst healing on the level of the crossbow has skewed the game pretty hard, because the game's damage numbers weren't designed around players being able to receive burst heals on a tiny reload timer with an infinite LOS requirement.
Take something like Gully's flank to 2nd, if you ate a good rocket back in the day you were boned, you hopefully had enough health after all the pressure to jump to your Medic otherwise you either walked up slowly (ancient Gully) or equalized up and then you waited for your 24 HP/s while your Scout was alone on flank, making your flank vulnerable and very easy to overrun.
Nowadays if you eat a good rocket you back up a couple steps and get crossbowed and the entire flank momentum basically gets reset. You need to sync damage before the xbow hits to land a kill or else you're not making much headway with the Medic up.
Plus it's basically a Scout buff, Medics are able to heal Scouts so much more often after they buffed the Crossbow's reload time + passive reload attribute because they can crossbow everyone else and spend less time healing everyone else directly and invest that time into Scout. If you tried to heal Scout as much in a no Crossbow world, you'd be forfeiting heals directly on your Soldiers/Demo.
Mind I just think they need to make it work off the crit heals mechanic and dump the passive reload stat, Medic's healing power is basically tied directly into crit heals and the crossbow completely ignores them which is pretty dumb. Players aren't supposed to receive good healing in combat unless they grab a pack, and Crossbow is pretty much ghetto packs in its current state.
Burst healing on the level of the crossbow has skewed the game pretty hard, because the game's damage numbers weren't designed around players being able to receive burst heals on a tiny reload timer with an infinite LOS requirement.
Take something like Gully's flank to 2nd, if you ate a good rocket back in the day you were boned, you hopefully had enough health after all the pressure to jump to your Medic otherwise you either walked up slowly (ancient Gully) or equalized up and then you waited for your 24 HP/s while your Scout was alone on flank, making your flank vulnerable and very easy to overrun.
Nowadays if you eat a good rocket you back up a couple steps and get crossbowed and the entire flank momentum basically gets reset. You need to sync damage before the xbow hits to land a kill or else you're not making much headway with the Medic up.
Plus it's basically a Scout buff, Medics are able to heal Scouts so much more often after they buffed the Crossbow's reload time + passive reload attribute because they can crossbow everyone else and spend less time healing everyone else directly and invest that time into Scout. If you tried to heal Scout as much in a no Crossbow world, you'd be forfeiting heals directly on your Soldiers/Demo.
Mind I just think they need to make it work off the crit heals mechanic and dump the passive reload stat, Medic's healing power is basically tied directly into crit heals and the crossbow completely ignores them which is pretty dumb. Players aren't supposed to receive good healing in combat unless they grab a pack, and Crossbow is pretty much ghetto packs in its current state.
id play medic if xbow was banned so i dont have fucking retards say "how u miss that arro!!!" god fuck off bitch
id play medic if xbow was banned so i dont have fucking retards say "how u miss that arro!!!" god fuck off bitch
it's overpowered, shouldn't be banned, should get a nerf. don't like the unlock
it makes the medic skill ceiling higher (by not much), because it requires aim and movement prediction
it lowers the medic skill ceiling by big amount by reducing the skill of managing your team's health since you don't have to really think who you heal with your medigun you just shoot 3 arrows with the same effect and in fraction of the time
i healed the heavy for 500 hp with crossbow with the same level of aim medigun would require
it's overpowered, shouldn't be banned, should get a nerf. don't like the unlock
it makes the medic skill ceiling higher (by not much), because it requires aim and movement prediction
it lowers the medic skill ceiling by big amount by reducing the skill of managing your team's health since you don't have to really think who you heal with your medigun you just shoot 3 arrows with the same effect and in fraction of the time
[youtube]https://youtu.be/6dmraGw1G_Q[/youtube]
i healed the heavy for 500 hp with crossbow with the same level of aim medigun would require
it makes the medic skill ceiling higher (by not much), because it requires aim and movement prediction
it lowers the medic skill ceiling by big amount by reducing the skill of managing your team's health since you don't have to really think who you heal with your medigun you just shoot 3 arrows with the same effect and in fraction of the time
[youtube]https://youtu.be/6dmraGw1G_Q[/youtube]
i healed the heavy for 500 hp with crossbow with the same level of aim medigun would require
Veccthe game slowed down BECAUSE of the crossbow
[quote=Vecc]the game slowed down BECAUSE of the crossbow[/quote]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/5cvdoAC.png[/img]
[img]https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/vp/c3e2460cc4684b9a9cc2f2fcb74800a3/5B664BDB/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/p640x640/24174946_171264533611977_4720800534460628992_n.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/5cvdoAC.png[/img]
[img]https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/vp/c3e2460cc4684b9a9cc2f2fcb74800a3/5B664BDB/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/p640x640/24174946_171264533611977_4720800534460628992_n.jpg[/img]
Not a huge fan of the crossbow to be honest. Think it could use a slight rework, at the very least remove passive reload.
Not a huge fan of the crossbow to be honest. Think it could use a slight rework, at the very least remove passive reload.
I played scrims without item servers and it wasn't fun, partially because of no gunboats but mostly because of no arrows.
I played scrims without item servers and it wasn't fun, partially because of no gunboats but mostly because of no arrows.
DarkNecridPlus it's basically a Scout buff, Medics are able to heal Scouts so much more often after they buffed the Crossbow's reload time + passive reload attribute because they can crossbow everyone else and spend less time healing everyone else directly and invest that time into Scout. If you tried to heal Scout as much in a no Crossbow world, you'd be forfeiting heals directly on your Soldiers/Demo.
I mostly agreed with your analysis but I disagree with this. I think the main reasons scout more dominant than ever before are:
1. the demo nerf
2. the medic movement speed buff
3. scout dm simply improving across the board
4. soldiers becoming more proficient at overall more advanced rjs and therefore needing to be tanked less often (in conjunction with the rise of double gunboats)
therefore, if xbow were banned, medics would have 2 options
1) play much slower and tank a pocket + demo a lot more
2) make their soldiers/demo even more expendable and keep the beam on scouts to more easily cleanup players on mid
I posit that, if team A is doing strat 1 and team B is doing strat 2, and they're about even skill, team B will win more of the time in a post-crossbow world. with the aforementioned reasons for pocket scout becoming more extreme in its usage, I just think a really good pocket scout with the beam on him will run around and pick off players while the other med slowly heals heavy classes back up.
[quote=DarkNecrid]
Plus it's basically a Scout buff, Medics are able to heal Scouts so much more often after they buffed the Crossbow's reload time + passive reload attribute because they can crossbow everyone else and spend less time healing everyone else directly and invest that time into Scout. If you tried to heal Scout as much in a no Crossbow world, you'd be forfeiting heals directly on your Soldiers/Demo.
[/quote]
I mostly agreed with your analysis but I disagree with this. I think the main reasons scout more dominant than ever before are:
1. the demo nerf
2. the medic movement speed buff
3. scout dm simply improving across the board
4. soldiers becoming more proficient at overall more advanced rjs and therefore needing to be tanked less often (in conjunction with the rise of double gunboats)
therefore, if xbow were banned, medics would have 2 options
1) play much slower and tank a pocket + demo a lot more
2) make their soldiers/demo even more expendable and keep the beam on scouts to more easily cleanup players on mid
I posit that, if team A is doing strat 1 and team B is doing strat 2, and they're about even skill, team B will win more of the time in a post-crossbow world. with the aforementioned reasons for pocket scout becoming more extreme in its usage, I just think a really good pocket scout with the beam on him will run around and pick off players while the other med slowly heals heavy classes back up.
Plus it's basically a Scout buff, Medics are able to heal Scouts so much more often after they buffed the Crossbow's reload time + passive reload attribute because they can crossbow everyone else and spend less time healing everyone else directly and invest that time into Scout. If you tried to heal Scout as much in a no Crossbow world, you'd be forfeiting heals directly on your Soldiers/Demo.
[/quote]
I mostly agreed with your analysis but I disagree with this. I think the main reasons scout more dominant than ever before are:
1. the demo nerf
2. the medic movement speed buff
3. scout dm simply improving across the board
4. soldiers becoming more proficient at overall more advanced rjs and therefore needing to be tanked less often (in conjunction with the rise of double gunboats)
therefore, if xbow were banned, medics would have 2 options
1) play much slower and tank a pocket + demo a lot more
2) make their soldiers/demo even more expendable and keep the beam on scouts to more easily cleanup players on mid
I posit that, if team A is doing strat 1 and team B is doing strat 2, and they're about even skill, team B will win more of the time in a post-crossbow world. with the aforementioned reasons for pocket scout becoming more extreme in its usage, I just think a really good pocket scout with the beam on him will run around and pick off players while the other med slowly heals heavy classes back up.
GrapeJuiceIIIHeal range should be 50-100 not 75-150.
should be 100-50 imo
[quote=GrapeJuiceIII]Heal range should be 50-100 not 75-150.[/quote]
should be 100-50 imo
should be 100-50 imo
degushould be 100-50 imo
No thank you. you’re just boosting the close range healing ability of the bow and further decentivising using the medigun for straight healing
[quote=degu]
should be 100-50 imo[/quote]
No thank you. you’re just boosting the close range healing ability of the bow and further decentivising using the medigun for straight healing
should be 100-50 imo[/quote]
No thank you. you’re just boosting the close range healing ability of the bow and further decentivising using the medigun for straight healing
ah yes this thread again, where the oldschool med mains come out of the woodwork and get all nostalgic about 'the good ol' days' where medic class required zero aim and consisted of jerking off and brainlessly beaming people for 30 minutes
open players and angery euros: xbow overpowered plz ban reeeeee
non apes: it's kinda dumb and overpowered but shouldn't be banned
*obligatory pointless debate on whether it 'slows down the game' or not, ensuing nerd essays and endless hypothetical scenarios*
they already removed arrow building maybe make it do less healing point blank or smt but it's basically fine tbh
ah yes this thread again, where the oldschool med mains come out of the woodwork and get all nostalgic about 'the good ol' days' where medic class required zero aim and consisted of jerking off and brainlessly beaming people for 30 minutes
open players and angery euros: xbow overpowered plz ban reeeeee
non apes: it's kinda dumb and overpowered but shouldn't be banned
*obligatory pointless debate on whether it 'slows down the game' or not, ensuing nerd essays and endless hypothetical scenarios*
they already removed arrow building maybe make it do less healing point blank or smt but it's basically fine tbh
open players and angery euros: xbow overpowered plz ban reeeeee
non apes: it's kinda dumb and overpowered but shouldn't be banned
*obligatory pointless debate on whether it 'slows down the game' or not, ensuing nerd essays and endless hypothetical scenarios*
they already removed arrow building maybe make it do less healing point blank or smt but it's basically fine tbh
GrapeJuiceIIIdegushould be 100-50 imoNo thank you. you’re just boosting the close range healing ability of the bow and further decentivising using the medigun for straight healing
now, most of the times you will do around 85 (from minumum 75), so with 100-50 it would still be around 85 but it would reduce the most annoying part and origin of most complaints
also same as today you'd end up with uber disad if overusing it
[quote=GrapeJuiceIII][quote=degu]
should be 100-50 imo[/quote]
No thank you. you’re just boosting the close range healing ability of the bow and further decentivising using the medigun for straight healing[/quote]
now, most of the times you will do around 85 (from minumum 75), so with 100-50 it would still be around 85 but it would reduce the most annoying part and origin of most complaints
also same as today you'd end up with uber disad if overusing it
should be 100-50 imo[/quote]
No thank you. you’re just boosting the close range healing ability of the bow and further decentivising using the medigun for straight healing[/quote]
now, most of the times you will do around 85 (from minumum 75), so with 100-50 it would still be around 85 but it would reduce the most annoying part and origin of most complaints
also same as today you'd end up with uber disad if overusing it
nursey is the only med that arrows consistently enough on close range targets in fights to make the gun feel overpowered
all the nerd essays are annoying cause medics just miss a lot of the time it would actually matter.
There literally aren't enough medics as is don't make the class less appealing jesus
nursey is the only med that arrows consistently enough on close range targets in fights to make the gun feel overpowered
all the nerd essays are annoying cause medics just miss a lot of the time it would actually matter.
There literally aren't enough medics as is don't make the class less appealing jesus
all the nerd essays are annoying cause medics just miss a lot of the time it would actually matter.
There literally aren't enough medics as is don't make the class less appealing jesus
yeah the idea of any balance changes in the current game (post-the recent pyro nerf) revolving around classes that aren't scout is pretty precious
yeah the idea of any balance changes in the current game (post-the recent pyro nerf) revolving around classes that aren't scout is pretty precious
did the full day of item servers being down teach you nothing
did the full day of item servers being down teach you nothing
i would literally fall asleep playing medic without the crossbow
i actually don't understand how anyone can bear 99.9% uptime on a gun that takes no aim
please don't take away literally the only thing about medic that is mildly difficult
i would literally fall asleep playing medic without the crossbow
i actually don't understand how anyone can bear 99.9% uptime on a gun that takes no aim
please don't take away literally the only thing about medic that is mildly difficult
i actually don't understand how anyone can bear 99.9% uptime on a gun that takes no aim
please don't take away literally the only thing about medic that is mildly difficult
IMO, having a low-stakes tournament once in a while where crossbow was blacklisted would be a great time because of the way it forces a change in playstyle (and also b/c needles are fun as fuck), but I can't see it getting banned for comp play anytime soon.
IMO, having a low-stakes tournament once in a while where crossbow was blacklisted would be a great time because of the way it forces a change in playstyle (and also b/c needles are fun as fuck), but I can't see it getting banned for comp play anytime soon.
bro just call focus targets 4Head LOOOOOOOOL
seriously though crossbow is super fun and it should not be nerfed or banned :) we already got rid of arrow building ;)
bro just call focus targets 4Head LOOOOOOOOL
seriously though crossbow is super fun and it should not be nerfed or banned :) we already got rid of arrow building ;)
seriously though crossbow is super fun and it should not be nerfed or banned :) we already got rid of arrow building ;)
catid play medic if xbow was banned so i dont have fucking retards say "how u miss that arro!!!" god fuck off bitch
is everyone who wants the crossbow banned someone who can't hit arrows on people standing still or walking in straight lines
[quote=cat]id play medic if xbow was banned so i dont have fucking retards say "how u miss that arro!!!" god fuck off bitch[/quote]
is everyone who wants the crossbow banned someone who can't hit arrows on people standing still or walking in straight lines
is everyone who wants the crossbow banned someone who can't hit arrows on people standing still or walking in straight lines
ban arrows cause it made people forget health packs exist
ban arrows cause it made people forget health packs exist
if we got rid of either the crossbow or the movement speed buff things would be more fun
now you have an entire generation of absolutely moronic medics with no idea of how positioning works because they can just get bailed out by sticking their medigun up the ass of the nearest scout
if we got rid of either the crossbow or the movement speed buff things would be more fun
now you have an entire generation of absolutely moronic medics with no idea of how positioning works because they can just get bailed out by sticking their medigun up the ass of the nearest scout
now you have an entire generation of absolutely moronic medics with no idea of how positioning works because they can just get bailed out by sticking their medigun up the ass of the nearest scout
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