gunboats change is good in concept but is too powerful so 40-50 would be my choice ahead of completely removing it

med speed plugin was a good thing to test but its clear it makes the game too slow and needs to go cause it punishes pushing even more

new process is nice, give some attention to new gullywash now and if its an improvement/can be improved lets give it the same treatment

solemn vow is fine imo and meds run both it and ubersaw since both have times with advantages this is cool
only problem i have with solemn vow is that if one med runs it the other med almost has to for it to be balanced

ruh ruh ruh

-Process
Personally, I didn't notice much of a difference but it probably is a major QOL improvement for soldiers considering all the splashbugs before.

-Winger
I still think it is way too easy to abuse winger. I'd consider a different approach such as a cooldown after two jumps for example. The only thing this plugin fixed is that people with a script had to grow 2 working fingers in order to press their quick switch key.

-Solemn Vow
I think it is completely fine. I remember the only arguments against it were that it is a straight upgrade and that it lowers the skill ceiling but we already have a weapon like that for another class so those points don't matter.

This is the same for the ubersaw.

-Scout speed
This noticeably nerfed the majority of pocket scouts. Personally I barely felt a difference except that medics were actually catchable after a won fight and that my team could rarely ever follow up on my flanks. I don't really care if it stays or not

- Gunboats always apply
I still think this is way too overtuned but there is no other logical solution I could think of. Ironically, soldiers now do what they always complained about when it happened to them. Despite how overpowered this plugin is I think it should stay, maybe try out some small adjustments to the damage reduction.

cp_process_f5 and projectiles through team mates are free so I won't even talk about them.

Winger is probably fine now. I wouldn't mind seeing it go completely, but if we're keeping it we should keep the plugin.

Solemn Vow I'm still undecided on and that might be because my team didn't really use it, nor is it the sort of thing you can easily feel/know when it's been used against you. I probably wouldn't mind leaving it unbanned, especially if we're getting rid of the Med-Scout speed plugin so we can try it out again in the meta that's here to stay.

Med-Scout speed: Please do not use this in a season/cup/whatever again. It ruins the flow of the game on the macro level by slowing your med down meaning heals get everywhere slower. On the micro level, it makes the process of getting through a choke hell for Scouts and Medics (Scouts can't run the Medic through and keep beam on them for when they're in the enemy's face making space, Medic spends more time in the choke eating spam), meaning free frags for Demomen and Soldiers.

It makes mid-fights more influential than they already were, which can be fine but the other part that people didn't see coming was how it turns a lot of mid fights into coin-tosses. In the past, if a team was bad at mid-fights they were on track to lose a game unless their last holds were sick, now you can just have 3 people go fast and unless the enemy team sends at least 1 other player to defend their Demo and they don't get the trade kill you've just won a mid before it begins. Really unfun to play as Demo but also a super effective strategy - why play out the mid-fight with heals if you are going to lose every time, just run at the enemy Demo and hope for the best lolololol. This was already possible before Med-speed but was way more ineffective because heals could get to mid pretty quick and save the Demo or make the trade-frag more likely as the one doing the trading would have heals.

The value of an uber also falls without Scout speed, you have to be way less ambitious with them and coupled with the fact that you're catching more spam due to what I said earlier you have to use earlier. Ubers into enclosed areas however are now almost completely the same, if not better and more dumbed-down because the enemy med has no escape mechanism and you're now just bombing Demo+Soldier into them rather than taking the Scout with you.

Most decisions are super dumbed down now - only push off of huge ads, do not push on small ads or off of spawns because u are now too slow to do too much off of them. From a maincalling perspective it's super annoying just being blue-balled on decision making by how slow your Med is and how bad ubers are now. The game is mostly less dynamic without it (sound super vague but if u know u know) but at least scout clarse is not op now guise!!!

Soldier plugin: Yea the old damage u would take was lame but this plugin in its current state is super lame for the other side of the equation. Being bombed by a guy, him hitting you for 150-250 dmg with 2-3 rockets and also jumping out for 20 dmg while the only major damage you can hit on him is while he is close to you (he's only taking chip dmg on the way in/out) is just insane. The dmg exchange is just ridiculously favourable for the Soldier. Genius brain idea: Plugin that makes it so Soldier always take self damage as if he were jumping (with space bar). https://www.teamfortress.tv/55758/how-to-take-40-less-self-damage-on-soldier for reference. This fixes the scenario where Scout can trade with Soldier in Process lobby while only hitting 1 shot but gets rid of the dumbass gameplay that has been happening this season with Soldiers lololol.

also ban iron bomber ty god bless

as a NA soldier I haven't been able to try out the gunboats plugin but I think having the damage reduction of full gunboats at all times is definitely too strong. Mak's idea of reducing the self damage taken to 40% like you usually would when midair is amazing and I think is the perfect middle ground.

My two cents as someone who has played top level during all forms of the scout speed.

I think the impact of having scout speed vs no scout speed is vastly being over exaggerated in this thread. The plugin doesn't introduce newer problems, it highlights existing issues while reducing the importance of other aspects that were more relevant with scout speed. Whether or not the game is played with the plugin is honestly a matter of preference from a gameplay stand point and what you personally find annoying or how you want to play the game and I think that is why as a topic its quite polarising. However I don't think the plugins should be used as it isolates our scene from the rest of the community and that I would be very cautious in continuing to cherry pick which plugins are preferable while they continue to have a big gameplay impact. (gunboats changes)

keep winger changes, imo doesn't need to get banned

process poggers and needs to stay

med speed nerf just made the game boring

half the solly jump damage instead of fully applying it

solemn vow didn't notice that much honestly

Dude let it go its been like 5 years, Valve aren't giving tf2 a major.

Wait, they won't?

intercontinental lans will still be a thing

the answers have now been spoiled https://clips.twitch.tv/MoistFlaccidDadFutureMan

get med speed back plz

I agree with sil. I think we should try to keep the game as similar to default tf2 as possible. The only changes I'd be willing to keep are the map changes and the winger change.

• I played about the same amount of soldier and medic with and without plugins. Scout speed was used for both offensive and defensive purposes, so I don't think removing it drastically changes the flow of the game or leads to more/less stalemates. It has the most effect when soldier is trying to force medic during a stalemate, because with scout speed medic could "just heal scout lol" and easily survive 2 rockets, but without it medic actually has to surf a rocket if soldier did a good jump.
  
• Another problem is that medic is not an attractive class to main for newer players, nerfing the class directly will only make this situation worse. I wouldn't mind settling for a compromise if, for example, scout speed didn't work only when medic has 100% uber.
  
• Gunboats plugin on its own is a reasonable buff to soldier, but with no scout speed plugin it allows soldier to get away with bad jumps and survive for no reason quite often, so I don't think that both plugins should stay together.
  
• Winger deploy plugin is great, it was smart to use the same design principle as atomizer.
  
• Solemn vow is a good sidegrade, gives medic more presence in calls during fights, and looking at the other medic to check uber is not free when you also have to arrow people and look around for bombers.

Overall, gameplay plugins are a great idea, I see it as the only prominent direction for this game and I hope it will eventually replace whitelists by fixing the issues of banned weapons (iron bomber hitbox and whatnot). Quality of life changes are a must-have and I believe that this game has potential to be something more than "default tf2" and the community can decide what gameplay changes and rulesets are better on the international level (like it was done before with global whitelist).

other plugins are good
get med speed back plz

I appreciate the comments but I'm sort of disappointed by the lack of depth in the feedback given, bar Mak and Sil, we learn nothing from "disable medic attach speed" or "it makes the game boring" (???).
I have a hard time believing the feedback on gunboats isn't mostly theory-crafting, I haven't paid an enormous amount of attention but if it is "way too powerful" like suggested, I would expect to see some clips demonstrating it.
I would like to try implementing some features before next season, granted I have the free time to do so:
- Making Soldier's base self-damage reduction always apply (as opposed to only in the air), this may not be possible as it may affect rocket jumping
- Normalize pipe sizes (hoping to ask Shounic about what he learned when making his video on the subject)
- Making engineer buildings collide with all teammates (to stomp the "medic hides in a dispenser" defense, which is incredibly stupid in my opinion)

No more dispenser armour sounds epic.

Wasn't the plugin made and then implemented because some people thought that the game without a plugin was boring? With all due respect, I don't think anything more than theory-crafting was put into the concept and implementing of the plugins either, so I don't see why it's not valid to counter in kind :P

That said, avoiding all theory crafting and going off what I experienced this season, I will say I played against Soldiers doing stupid shit ,and if not fully getting away with it, being rewarded more so for a stupid play than they otherwise would be. It still benefits better Soldiers more than the bad ones, as does any 'busted' mechanic but like I said in my original post the damage exchange is quite frankly fucking stupid lol. It already was borderline valid to get a good timing on a bomb and attempt to kill enemy Scouts, especially if your Demo tags them, now it is insanely easy to do even to the best of Scouts and without Demo support. It all comes down to a value judgment - because of 10 years of playing this game and expecting the Soldier class to take high self damage when he is near me, I would think a player who willingly plays into this situation is "not very good", and without plugins I would be right cause he'd die for a bunch of dmg and that's about it. With this plugin, he can get a kill/bunch of dmg and jump out at the same time. Add onto this sil's point about isolating the competitive part of the game from the rest and I really do not see the value that these specific plugins have.

Considering there is a whole season of gameplay and that a lot of people did not like the plugins, I would say it is safe to say there is no point in putting them in again in their current state. Perhaps I'm out of touch though and everyone thinks both plugins were poggers.

The plugin was originally made to allow playing without medic attach speed, this was explicitly made to have something more substantial than theory-crafting. I then saw the opportunity for me to include various fixes to things that annoyed me directly throughout the 7k hours I played, those weren't made because I had thought of balance changes.
The issue I have is that theory-crafting is (historically very) noisy, and I'm particularly interested in hearing about feedback rooted in experience, which I would like not to be drowned out.
I don't mean to be dismissive, I hope you understand.

I understand and agree that the change makes directly bombing a lot more powerful, that's not what the change was implemented for (dealing 70 self-damage because a scout brainlessly ran into you is what). I'm not sure I see where it has a large negative impact on the game, it helps breaking holds and doesn't seem impossible to counter..? Am I mistaken?

If that's the case, agreed, although that's not my decision

Where is this a whole lot of people did not like the plugins? I really didn't notice any difference with this gunboat change as top level soldier comes down to actually using effective positioning with your bombs. It didn't give me/nubbi/kaptain a valid reason to land on your face unless you were out of position.

It is not "insanely easy" to just bomb into a scout and secure an easy kill on him without dying for it/not getting the kill, what even is this logic?

You're saying you played against soldiers who did a lot of stupid shit and got away with it, care to give examples? You're only playing against 14 different soldiers in prem and with the experience/team you have, surely you've tried to analyse and adapt too it?

You also mention in your previous post that soldiers are bombing and doing 150-230 damage and jumping away but this is what was practiced before, if you can't kill a soldier in that time frame then your focus fire isn't there or your team is not positioned to stop a sac/bomb in this way, or even you aren't positioned well enough to deal with it.

I'm not saying your points aren't valid but from a personal experience with what I played with against you and other teams, these don't seem like accurate criticisms off the plugin itself.

Correct me if I am wrong as well but that was never the intention off the plugin anyway, it was to mitigate stupid situations where a scout can w+m1 into you in a tight choke and still win because you've taken too much self damage.

I know that this thread is for discussing the balance of the plugins but a discussion about whether or not the use of plugins that impact gameplay (med speed, gunboats, winger) should be used at all is required. I see lots of comments where people will suggest altering certain plugins or cherry picking which ones they like so I feel the need to emphasise that choosing to go this route will only have negative consequences.

The quality of life plugins are great.

i like not being one shot to 1 scatter and one self damage rocket when a scout runs round a corner into my face

that honestly felt like the only significant thing that changed with the gunboats damage, youre actual teamfighting is exactly the same, maybe on rare occasions you get to live for one more rocket with the extra 30 health.

scout speed changed 2 things for me, the first was that beam scouts were way less oppresive in teamfights as meds positioned further back with their lower escape, second was when meds did step up it was much easier to punish as their dodging/surfing is a bunch worse. i dunno if these were positive changes for the whole state of the game but my mid soldier brain appreciated this very much

winger good, process good, projectiles good, solemn vow probably op

Make full charge bodyshots do 149.

That's stupid, but about that, it would be cool to have opaque spawn doors on every maps, it's really frustrating to be seen by the sniper while you can't see him, then he just has to tap w once, and kill a medic in sight without even trying to shoot the head, which is lame to play against as medic. I'd rather tell myself that if i die to a sniper in spawn, he had to quickly adjust his aiming just after opening the door.

I mean, I think it's kinda lame that you can hide in spawn or anywhere and one shot a medic without a headshot.

edit: misunderstood what you meant

I acknowledge it is just my personal experience but majority of people I have had direct talks with about it don't like the plugins. I'm not gonna collect a survey to make a forum post on team fortress dot tv :p

Ok I may have exaggerated here, the bottom line is that I do not think the Scout/Soldier matchup before the plugin was imbalanced. Like I said, if you catch a timing or have a good bomb it is entirely possible to be the one killing the Scout rather than the other way around, and this plugin only improves the chance of that happening. If anything I think it is imbalanced now and that is because a poor Soldier can do the laziest "me hulk me smash" bomb and get far more value than they otherwise would without the plugin. That is all I am arguing.

Your point about this not being the intention of the plugin is 100% true but I don't see what that means if it has unintended consequences that are damaging the game. I do not like fighting vs Soldiers who just fly into my face like a moron and have a higher chance of getting some value when before they would die for 150 dmg.

100% this. I know this may seem like me running because I've been pwned but I was always mostly in this camp. The only validity I saw was that it would be interesting to playtest the plugins for an extended period of time. We've now done that and not everyone is sold 100%, to say the least. I would say the best thing to do is keep coming up with and implementing quality of life plugins and stop when the plugins become too different from the core game.

Oh it was.From a flank perspective, pushing a soldier was ridiculously one-sided in favor of the scout. If you pushed a door and hit only one meatshot you pretty much guaranteed a trade, sometimes even a pick because the soldier killed himself and you survived. And these are stalemate scenarios. Open fights were usually won by the scout unless the soldier pulled 2 magic rockets out of the hat but you can not expect them to do this every time.

There is no need. If a medic dies to one it is his fault for walking into the sightline. Instead, snipers should not be able to cancel momentum with bodyshots. There is really no reason why a 100 damage bodyshot should completely deny a soldier.

Maybe, but there are a few spots on maps that are a bit OP with it, like Granary yard or maybe process 2nd, Reckoner 2nd and mid perhaps.

Seems a bit cheap. Not gamebreaking though or anything.

Regarding knockbock, I suppose 100 damage scattergun would deny a soldier.