I enjoy fast team fortress 2.

I spoke with some people at LAN yesterday, and it seems that a decent number of invite players do enjoy the timer plugin. There are, however, a fair few people that don't like it due to the quirks it introduces, including round reset abuse and potentially infinitely long golden cap rounds.

No clue about how bad round resets were, but it felt a lot more fun and engaging to watch, though it's brutal on players. Especially in brackets like these. Laz? Yesterday after that last round basically threw himself back and kinda slumped with a "thank God it's done" vibe.

edit: Also kinda crazy how smoothly it all ran. There were obv delays and stuff for the bigger games but there was always one or two going on til the end of the night (tho venue size did create some funny shit like everyone waiting for that fired up vs burnsiders game to finish so 2 other teams could swap out with them)

I think it's a step in the right direction but I think the current pool of 5CP maps we have don't accommodate for the new config. I saw a lot of resets because timers were running out last night. My first thought is that maybe it's the size of some maps. Something like Metalworks is so large that you only need to deny aggression on 2nd for a few minutes before a reset after losing a mid then you can reset and try to get the mid in your favor, and denying aggression while just bunkering down on Metalworks can be fairly easy.

Idk why b4nny is so obsessed with 3 minutes instead of experimenting with other times like 5 min which has been the most mentioned from what I’ve seen. Obviously he shouldn’t change it during lan but idk why he didn’t try other times in pugs before lan

bad faith + ur pissed + ratio

This can happen with the current ruleset. Gully week I played 2 full halves + 37 minute golden cap. Theoretically a golden cap could last until the end of time (or when one team decides they want to sleep).

One thing I was thinking about is adding 10 seconds to the round timer whenever someone dies in the server.

This would allow teams on last who actually win the fight with 5 seconds left on the timer to push out, because time would be added for the players they killed and they could go cap second. It might also allow for one or so more sac rotations during stalemates, depending on how many people the attacking team sacs/how many kills they get. Basically, the team that wins the fight is rewarded with more time to work with their advantages.

Because some sac plays take more time, trading 2 for 2 and adding 40 seconds to the timer would give the attacking team more wiggle-room and increase the variety of their plays. I think this would buff attacking teams slighty, making it harder for the defending team to reset the round, as well as rewarding the attacking team for getting kills.

The thing I'm most worried about is teams not capping on purpose when they'd be able to. Imagine you win a fight, but their med gets out and you're now on large disad. Your incentive is just to not cap and reset the round so you can be on even ubers again. Maybe this is rarer than I think it would be, but adding 10s per player death would solve this anyways.

If you just increased the timer to 5min, attacking teams would get more rotations, but it would also increase the time spent "waiting around"/stalemating which the whole point of the 3min timer is meant to reduce. +10s per player death would not only force the attacking team to do something within 3min, but reward good sacs with more sac rotations, as well as reward good defenses with more time to push out. I also agree with Poptobob. Post over!!

Main difference to remember, though, is this ruleset enacts that endless possibility more often since you only need the teams to not reach 5 rounds, rather than having the scores tied when the map timer runs out.

3 minute round timer seems lame. rewards defending teams way too much, why try to ever push out or do anything when you can turtle on last for 3 minutes for another mid fight and chance to win the round.

EU fixes this by adding a 15min limit to golden caps, and if this expires going to a golden mid (ie new round and whoever wins the midfight)

eu ruleset in general seems fine why dont we use it

Honestly I really liked playing with it, ik a lot of other people don't but it keeps the game moving.

make it 4

Perhaps 5 to start, a nice 50% cut from the default 10

Tbf as a viewer it didn't seem to make games go any faster than normal rulesets. Maybe I might change my mind if the stakes were much higher than a 3k prize pool. Though I didn't really notice a difference. I'm indifferent.

Edit: Pool is 6k, didn't know that! Wow! That's awesome. Though from watching previous tournaments (I series) or RGL officials I didn't really notice much more speed if at all. The only difference I did notice is more DM fests and dog fights because of the 3 minute panic. It also seems to favour defenders as well because you only have 3 minutes to deal with a heavy and engi.

how about if you turtle for 3 minutes the opponent scores 1 point, but if the opponent caps they score 2 points? Then you make it winlimit 10 or something.

Isn't it around $6k+ right now?

While I think 10+ minutes stalemates are a problem, this ruleset turns everything into a bunch of chaotic endless dm that isn't even that fun to watch tbh. Of course it's not random dm as fast decision making and team coordination are important more than ever, but I really felt like the extra fast pace was actually more boring than a slow or a traditional one.
Also, no timer and 3 minutes for each cap take away a part of the game that, like it or not, is just as interesting as going 100 miles per hour: slowing the game down and being able to face teams that are better than yours in terms of fast pace/raw dm/whatever. It completely removes a huge part of how you could potentially play a match.
Of course froyo are so good they would've still won with traditional ruleset, but this is the kind of gamestyle where they always excelled.
Golden Cap should work similar to EU imo, it's just the best option.
I think trying to find the perfect balance between boring infinite stalemates and just as equally boring lightspeed back and forth TF2 speedrun should be the way to go

Seems to make the godlike sentry guns on process sunshine and snake last even more oppressive with only 3 minutes to deal with it.

im not really sure what problem its trying to fix??
im genuinely unsure when the last time we actually had a long stalemate in eu was, and id imagine its even more rare in na (you guys are better at the game lol)
like at this point the meta has moved past the era of infinite bus parking and i just dont really see the point
its like someone watched 3 kaidus games from 2015 and decided that they had to do everything in their power to stop it
it removes so many of the nuances of doing good pushes and breaking stalemates, and IMO its the casters fault if they cant make that interesting

My immediate thoughts are that it takes away a lot of the rhythm - like everyone else is saying, it's constant DM, and while a lot of people watching the stream were enjoying that, and I would agree that pushing should be incentivised over holding, having breaks in that action is important. In the few games I watched I didn't see a single spy play, for instance, because there just isn't time to set it up. I agree with #22 that the stalemate problem it's purporting to fix isn't really happening in 2022 at the top level, and maybe it's still common in lower divs but teams there just aren't as good as breaking them.

Having said all that, one event isn't enough to draw conclusions, and if teams practised this more they'd get better at playing it to its limits and maximising that 3min timer. It's possible that a good middle ground would be at 4 or 5 mins, as some people suggested, but I don't think we can say already that it's objectively good or bad, and tbh the best thing we can do is experiment with an open mind.

It was just too much man. I felt sort of bad for the casters trying to keep up with everything, the game constantly being a slugfest either way. I think the idea behind it is inherently flawed as well, thinking that TF2 needs to be faster paced to make the viewing experience more enjoyable.
League is one of the, if not the biggest esport on the planet right now and has 'stalemates' aka 'lull states' for like 50% of the games where nothing notable happens. I think having slow and tactical gameplay in TF2 is fine. Giving both the players, casters and viewers time to catch a breath and think about what just happened.
I'd say maybe 5 minute round timers could be more interesting, but of course all of this has to be thoroughly tested.

Edit: I also think tactical pauses are dumb and can completely ruin the flow and momentum of the game. Just have set half times or no tac pauses at all. I think they can be abused heavily

that's how the game used to look like back in the day though.

https://youtu.be/rHL9sSOsNKk?t=830
You can take any vod from any league from 2012-2013.
Now you might prefer the way the game plays today, and that's fine.

But anyway one gripe I've heard is as a team, why bother learning how to push out of last/2nd if you can just learn the holds and the midfights and be rewarded?
https://youtu.be/pr5eoKii7eQ?t=6297

3 minutes feels like it's too short, it means you have only 2 well thought out, prepared, and executed attempts at breaking the other team's hold, 3 if you rush it a bit. The flip side of this is that on defense, you only have to hold 2-3 sac or push attempts from the other team to get a round reset to mid. At least at my level, if my team is holding last against an opponent that's about the same level as us, I'm pretty confident that we can hold against 2-3 attempts if we make no effort to countersac more than one player or push out. Extend that out to 3-5 attempts by extending the round timer to 4 or 5 minutes, and it becomes significantly more risky to just turtle.

If you cannot break a hold with 2-3 attempts I don't blame you, if you can't break it with 5 attempts you probably deserve to be reset to mid IMO, so my vote is for a 5 minute round timer.

Watching top Invite players take DM fights over and over *is* wildly entertaining, I must say, but as others have said, 3 minutes does remove some of the interesting depth of breaking a hold.

I do really like the "overtime until one team wins" aspect of the ruleset, and I think Fullerton demonstrated that running a proper tournament with it is possible even with potentially infinite overtime.

I also would prefer a number that is an exact fraction.

only played it for a one day cup but i (+ a majority of people i’ve talked to that have played it) think it’s good just 3 is too short, 5 would prob be better (?)

well. that is exactly what happened

really loved this new fast paced 6v6 style as a viewer. maybe an extra 30-60 seconds could be better but overall the right direction imo

also

idk where to post this but whos idea was it to not have a crosshair spectating a game that is always played with a crosshair? assumed it was unintentional until a few maps in. makes the viewing experience worse for no reason