How would the game be different if it was going to be designed around the idea of it becoming an eSport? Assuming the basics of 6v6 can be preserved (5cp, ubers, health buffs, ect.) what would you personally change about the game as a whole?
EDIT: I would probably shorten the delay of the sniper rifle, make the fov limit 130 like every other game, toy with strafe jumping to make it work (something like you can only go 150% of your base speed), maybe work with armor and reduce health buff
I'd like to hear other people's opinions on the matter
How would the game be different if it was going to be designed around the idea of it becoming an eSport? Assuming the basics of 6v6 can be preserved (5cp, ubers, health buffs, ect.) what would you personally change about the game as a whole?
EDIT: I would probably shorten the delay of the sniper rifle, make the fov limit 130 like every other game, toy with strafe jumping to make it work (something like you can only go 150% of your base speed), maybe work with armor and reduce health buff
I'd like to hear other people's opinions on the matter
Games that are designed with a competitive scene in mind are usually bad. If a game was big enough to form a competitive scene, then it earned it. Plus, its way more fun to work around and with what the developers give us, rather than what we want them to give us.
(Ex: maps that have hiding spots or traps that the developers didn't think about, yet the community found.)
Games that are designed with a competitive scene in mind are usually bad. If a game was big enough to form a competitive scene, then it earned it. Plus, its way more fun to work around and with what the developers give us, rather than what we want them to give us.
(Ex: maps that have hiding spots or traps that the developers didn't think about, yet the community found.)
clutchworkmaybe work with armor and reduce health buff
There are armor pickups in quake because there are no medics, so no buffs without them
there are buffs in tf2 because there are medics
that shouldn't be the other way around
[quote=clutchwork]maybe work with armor and reduce health buff [/quote]
There are armor pickups in quake because there are no medics, so no buffs without them
there are buffs in tf2 because there are medics
that shouldn't be the other way around
if you wanted to play tf2 like quake, you should just go play quake
if you wanted to play tf2 like quake, you should just go play quake
IcyWindGames that are designed with a competitive scene in mind are usually bad.
I disagree with this, games like quake and starcraft are fantastic games
IcyWindPlus, its way more fun to work around and with what the developers give us.
I agree with this though I do love tf2 and am content with the way it is, I just wonder what it would be if valve catered less to hats and pubs and more to optimize and balance the game.
[quote=IcyWind]Games that are designed with a competitive scene in mind are usually bad.[/quote]
I disagree with this, games like quake and starcraft are fantastic games
[quote=IcyWind]Plus, its way more fun to work around and with what the developers give us.[/quote]
I agree with this though I do love tf2 and am content with the way it is, I just wonder what it would be if valve catered less to hats and pubs and more to optimize and balance the game.
Edyclutchworkmaybe work with armor and reduce health buff
There are armor pickups in quake because there are no medics, so no buffs without them
there are buffs in tf2 because there are medics
that shouldn't be the other way around
this is true if there was armor the medic wouldn't be as important and I like the unique mechanics of his healing the way they are
[quote=Edy][quote=clutchwork]maybe work with armor and reduce health buff [/quote]
There are armor pickups in quake because there are no medics, so no buffs without them
there are buffs in tf2 because there are medics
that shouldn't be the other way around[/quote]
this is true if there was armor the medic wouldn't be as important and I like the unique mechanics of his healing the way they are
It's all about the pub level of play. You need to be able to create an environment where communication isn't vital, teamwork isn't quite as heavily favored, and the class limits are much less restricted (than comp TF2 play). Pub play is exactly that but it takes all those to the extreme.
Looking at Strarcraft 2, Dota 2, and TF2, each game becomes more team work based as you move down the list. RTS games are usually 1v1 where you can look around the map at free will. You control everything. Team work based FPS games lock your point of view and put you in environments where team work as well as communication is vital. MOBA games strike this middle ground where team work helps a lot but communication isn't as important because you can look around the map just as you could with RTS games. It's much easier for players to understand they are part of a bigger picture in Dota.
That's why you see a lot of players rage at others in Dota. It's a teamwork based game even at the casual level. If a pyro right next to you in TF2 pubs doesn't help you out, you don't rage because you don't expect much from your teammates. Expectations of your teammates are much higher in Dota.
Part of the reason why MOBA's are so successful is that they attempt to find the perfect middle ground between competitive and casual play. If you want Team Fortess 2 to be comp centric, you need to find that middle ground. That can be done with specific maps and class limits, as well as possibly completely different game modes.
It's all about the pub level of play. You need to be able to create an environment where communication isn't vital, teamwork isn't quite as heavily favored, and the class limits are much less restricted (than comp TF2 play). Pub play is exactly that but it takes all those to the extreme.
Looking at Strarcraft 2, Dota 2, and TF2, each game becomes more team work based as you move down the list. RTS games are usually 1v1 where you can look around the map at free will. You control everything. Team work based FPS games lock your point of view and put you in environments where team work as well as communication is vital. MOBA games strike this middle ground where team work helps a lot but communication isn't as important because you can look around the map just as you could with RTS games. It's much easier for players to understand they are part of a bigger picture in Dota.
That's why you see a lot of players rage at others in Dota. It's a teamwork based game even at the casual level. If a pyro right next to you in TF2 pubs doesn't help you out, you don't rage because you don't expect much from your teammates. Expectations of your teammates are much higher in Dota.
Part of the reason why MOBA's are so successful is that they attempt to find the perfect middle ground between competitive and casual play. If you want Team Fortess 2 to be comp centric, you need to find that middle ground. That can be done with specific maps and class limits, as well as possibly completely different game modes.
Games like Starcraft 2 or Dota 2 don't have a big difference between public play and competitive play. The only thing that differs is individual/team skill. In TF2 there is a big difference between 6v6 and public play. I think that is one of the reason why most pub players don't want to make the jump into 6v6 right away. I know a lot of people that started with highlander because it's more similiar to pubs and then got into 6v6 because they got to know people that already played in it.
So if there is a way to make some public playlists that feature highlander/6v6 settings, I think that would improve the game quite a bit. But it also requires people that already know what they're doing helping out the newbies and teaching them how to play the mentioned gametypes.
€: I think the game mechanics are pretty good at this point. This is more of a way to make the game more accessible to pubbers.
Games like Starcraft 2 or Dota 2 don't have a big difference between public play and competitive play. The only thing that differs is individual/team skill. In TF2 there is a big difference between 6v6 and public play. I think that is one of the reason why most pub players don't want to make the jump into 6v6 right away. I know a lot of people that started with highlander because it's more similiar to pubs and then got into 6v6 because they got to know people that already played in it.
So if there is a way to make some public playlists that feature highlander/6v6 settings, I think that would improve the game quite a bit. But it also requires people that already know what they're doing helping out the newbies and teaching them how to play the mentioned gametypes.
€: I think the game mechanics are pretty good at this point. This is more of a way to make the game more accessible to pubbers.
I would really like to have some sort of incentive to move out so the HRG play where they wait two minutes and then bomb Tagg would become less viable. Compare it to Quake, if you are the player in control and you sit around doing nothing it's actually a bad idea because your armor and health will decay and the player out of control will catch up to you. It's really boring to watch teams sit around doing nothing and then the occasional roamer suicide will happen and they'll maybe get the force out and then push with uber advantage. You can try to push with that roamer advantage but it's pretty difficult with the fast forward respawns. An incentive to move out could be a power-up or an armor or something like that.
Instead of adding an incentive move out you could also make pushing into second/mid easier, most obvious solution being increasing forward respawn timers. However this could also make teams more scared of pushing uber vs uber because before if they screwed up they could maybe delay the enemy team enough for the forward respawns to kick in. Another option is to modify the maps obviously.
In my opinion that play just needs to be weakened to the point where it's not viable at all.
I would really like to have some sort of incentive to move out so the HRG play where they wait two minutes and then bomb Tagg would become less viable. Compare it to Quake, if you are the player in control and you sit around doing nothing it's actually a bad idea because your armor and health will decay and the player out of control will catch up to you. It's really boring to watch teams sit around doing nothing and then the occasional roamer suicide will happen and they'll maybe get the force out and then push with uber advantage. You can try to push with that roamer advantage but it's pretty difficult with the fast forward respawns. An incentive to move out could be a power-up or an armor or something like that.
Instead of adding an incentive move out you could also make pushing into second/mid easier, most obvious solution being increasing forward respawn timers. However this could also make teams more scared of pushing uber vs uber because before if they screwed up they could maybe delay the enemy team enough for the forward respawns to kick in. Another option is to modify the maps obviously.
In my opinion that play just needs to be weakened to the point where it's not viable at all.
tf2's main impediment to competitive growth is
A. The lack of a casual competitive community outside of highlander
There's no real good way to just feel the urge to play sixes at any time of the day, join a queue, and play, without being on a team of some sort. Because lobbies and Pugs tend to be pretty yucky if you're attempting to take it seriously.
B. Lack of awareness amongst tf2 players of the comp. community or how to enter it.
C. Barriers to entry - FPS, internet problems not present in sc2 and Moba games etc, complex entry (finding out about tf2.mix pug.na, etc) closed nature of the community.
Changing basic game mechanics, in the form of a pro-mod would only make most of these things worse. Not to mention that overheal basically *is* armor. If anything you could also just as easily argue that the sniper charge time should be LONGER since simply full charge body shotting kills all but 3 classes in the game (if they're unbuffed).
Plus most peoples' gripes with things in tf2, like stalemates, are tremendously over blown, since basically LoL seems to be pretty popular - but literally nothing happens in some LoL games for 10+ minutes, not to mention physical sports with time outs, pauses between periods/quarters, etc.
tf2's main impediment to competitive growth is
A. The lack of a casual competitive community outside of highlander
There's no real good way to just feel the urge to play sixes at any time of the day, join a queue, and play, without being on a team of some sort. Because lobbies and Pugs tend to be pretty yucky if you're attempting to take it seriously.
B. Lack of awareness amongst tf2 players of the comp. community or how to enter it.
C. Barriers to entry - FPS, internet problems not present in sc2 and Moba games etc, complex entry (finding out about tf2.mix pug.na, etc) closed nature of the community.
Changing basic game mechanics, in the form of a pro-mod would only make most of these things worse. Not to mention that overheal basically *is* armor. If anything you could also just as easily argue that the sniper charge time should be LONGER since simply full charge body shotting kills all but 3 classes in the game (if they're unbuffed).
Plus most peoples' gripes with things in tf2, like stalemates, are tremendously over blown, since basically LoL seems to be pretty popular - but literally nothing happens in some LoL games for 10+ minutes, not to mention physical sports with time outs, pauses between periods/quarters, etc.
Marxist...sniper charge time should be LONGER ...
the sniper charge time is fine I was talking about the .2 second delay before you can fire after scoping in
[quote=Marxist]...sniper charge time should be LONGER ...[/quote]
the sniper charge time is fine I was talking about the .2 second delay before you can fire after scoping in
I'm pretty sure that the mechanics of tf2 are find and don't impede its growth at all, and in my opinion changing them would just destroy what is already an almost perfect team based fps (disregarding hats and growing fps problems). It's completely just an issue of exposure and audience. Tf2 has little exposure and way to many casual gamers who don't care that much about actually being good at the game, or they just don't know the competitive side exists.
I'm pretty sure that the mechanics of tf2 are find and don't impede its growth at all, and in my opinion changing them would just destroy what is already an almost perfect team based fps (disregarding hats and growing fps problems). It's completely just an issue of exposure and audience. Tf2 has little exposure and way to many casual gamers who don't care that much about actually being good at the game, or they just don't know the competitive side exists.
Honestly if you wanted to grow TF2 as an esport, all you would really have to do is just make a spectate client that actually works with the features that the community currently had to hack into it. Damage stats, outlines, easy way to toggle between players and a lobby system that other Valve games like L4D have. And then it's a simple matter of just spreading the word.
Honestly if you wanted to grow TF2 as an esport, all you would really have to do is just make a spectate client that actually works with the features that the community currently had to hack into it. Damage stats, outlines, easy way to toggle between players and a lobby system that other Valve games like L4D have. And then it's a simple matter of just spreading the word.
I feel that all Valve would need to do to make TF2 a larger comp game is add a gametype/lobby system for it. Realistically it would likely only be for HL, as Valve has shown a lot of HL support and virtually none for 6s (that I've seen)...but still, it would open the door.
I feel that all Valve would need to do to make TF2 a larger comp game is add a gametype/lobby system for it. Realistically it would likely only be for HL, as Valve has shown a lot of HL support and virtually none for 6s (that I've seen)...but still, it would open the door.
I would like to say that what a lot of players want valve to do to help sixes is:
Don't add weapons that slow down the game from the current, incredibly fast-paced game that 6v6 is and aren't extremely annoying
Remove bugs
Add a lobby system
For the first, basically anything they add will be slow for 6v6. For the second, I think everyone wants that, but that's sadly a lower priority than hats because hats=money. For the third, the serious players already have TF2Lobby and pug.nahl and such. Combined with the fact that in order for this to be worth valve's time, they have to make money, and those services are available for free, it's unlikely that they'll implement it.
I will say, however, that valve has given players the tools they need (whitelist, cvars, etc.) to help to reduce the influence of their changes.
I would like to say that what a lot of players want valve to do to help sixes is:
Don't add weapons that slow down the game from the current, incredibly fast-paced game that 6v6 is and aren't extremely annoying
Remove bugs
Add a lobby system
For the first, basically anything they add will be slow for 6v6. For the second, I think everyone wants that, but that's sadly a lower priority than hats because hats=money. For the third, the serious players already have TF2Lobby and pug.nahl and such. Combined with the fact that in order for this to be worth valve's time, they have to make money, and those services are available for free, it's unlikely that they'll implement it.
I will say, however, that valve has given players the tools they need (whitelist, cvars, etc.) to help to reduce the influence of their changes.
This may sound blasphemous but removing hats and miscs in general so that even people who have bad computers can get more fps.
This may sound blasphemous but removing hats and miscs in general so that even people who have bad computers can get more fps.
oh man i wonder why tf2 stands for team fortress 2
oh man i wonder why tf2 stands for [i]team[/i] fortress 2
GeknaiirThis may sound blasphemous but removing hats and miscs in general so that even people who have bad computers can get more fps.
there are mods to do that, check the fps improvement thread
[quote=Geknaiir]This may sound blasphemous but removing hats and miscs in general so that even people who have bad computers can get more fps.[/quote]
there are mods to do that, check the fps improvement thread
Two ways to go about it:
1) Someone mentioned better/easier ways to spectate. Spot on.
2) Someone gives us a lot of money to make a big thing out of it.
IMO, a lot of comp TF2 is fine the way it is; there are maybe two or three major elements missing from making it a huge eSport. A lot of that has already been covered in this thread.
Two ways to go about it:
1) Someone mentioned better/easier ways to spectate. Spot on.
2) Someone gives us a lot of money to make a big thing out of it.
IMO, a lot of comp TF2 is fine the way it is; there are maybe two or three major elements missing from making it a huge eSport. A lot of that has already been covered in this thread.
Incoming wall of fucking text be ready.
1) Better spectator tool.
2) Support from developer.
a. Put big matches on the main menu and people-random pubbers who have just launched tf2 and never heard of comp-can 1 click to spectate.
b. Highlander and 6v6 ques. Basically do exactly what CS:GO does. Each player has an individual rank and that is changed by wins and losses. You don't get matched up with/against players much better or much worse than yourself. Bring in TF2s unique mentorship mechanic (the coach a new player thing) and high level players (like high open and up) could be placed 1 on each team of a low level matchmaking game.
c. Make basically every "pro" map the stock. Change valve server rotations away from payload and towards 5cp and koth. This is not to say there should be no payload valve servers, just the rotation should favor somewhat heavily 5cp and koth maps.
d. Just delete arena mode please.
3. Buff medic. Give him an LG or something that has a really high skill ceiling (like the xbow) but that actually gives him a hope in hell of winning a 1v1 fair fight (not like the xbow).
4. Raise the skill ceiling and lower the skill floor for "pub" classes:
a. Lower the DPS of heavy. Make bullets have a tighter spread. Balance these such that if you track really well you can get the same DPS as the heavy has now (because less bullets are missing).
b. Pyro airblast needs to not lock you in a motion. Currently the airblast completely resets your velocity and makes you actually unable to move or jump (for scouts) for a short amount of time after the airblast. It should act like explosive knockback: surf-able, strafe-able, and slightly beveled so the pyro doesn't just get to look at a spot to make you go there, he has to understand his position vs yours and how the airblast will push you.
c. Engineer: the wrangler has potential. Remove the shielding and the fire rate increase given by the wrangler. The only benefit you now get is range. Also add a negative effect to the wrangler: dramatically (+100%?) longer time to switch weapons OFF the wrangler. If you get spammed you are pretty much fucked as you cant get your wrench out in time. You have to be smart about positioning and team support to make the wrangler work now.
5. Patch as many popular pub weapons as possible in a similar manner to the wrangler. Then these can actually be unbanned in 6v6 and HL to make comp more accessible.
Incoming wall of fucking text be ready.
1) Better spectator tool.
2) Support from developer.
a. Put big matches on the main menu and people-random pubbers who have just launched tf2 and never heard of comp-can 1 click to spectate.
b. Highlander and 6v6 ques. Basically do exactly what CS:GO does. Each player has an individual rank and that is changed by wins and losses. You don't get matched up with/against players much better or much worse than yourself. Bring in TF2s unique mentorship mechanic (the coach a new player thing) and high level players (like high open and up) could be placed 1 on each team of a low level matchmaking game.
c. Make basically every "pro" map the stock. Change valve server rotations away from payload and towards 5cp and koth. This is not to say there should be no payload valve servers, just the rotation should favor somewhat heavily 5cp and koth maps.
d. Just delete arena mode please.
3. Buff medic. Give him an LG or something that has a really high skill ceiling (like the xbow) but that actually gives him a hope in hell of winning a 1v1 fair fight (not like the xbow).
4. Raise the skill ceiling and lower the skill floor for "pub" classes:
a. Lower the DPS of heavy. Make bullets have a tighter spread. Balance these such that if you track really well you can get the same DPS as the heavy has now (because less bullets are missing).
b. Pyro airblast needs to not lock you in a motion. Currently the airblast completely resets your velocity and makes you actually unable to move or jump (for scouts) for a short amount of time after the airblast. It should act like explosive knockback: surf-able, strafe-able, and slightly beveled so the pyro doesn't just get to look at a spot to make you go there, he has to understand his position vs yours and how the airblast will push you.
c. Engineer: the wrangler has potential. Remove the shielding and the fire rate increase given by the wrangler. The only benefit you now get is range. Also add a negative effect to the wrangler: dramatically (+100%?) longer time to switch weapons OFF the wrangler. If you get spammed you are pretty much fucked as you cant get your wrench out in time. You have to be smart about positioning and team support to make the wrangler work now.
5. Patch as many popular pub weapons as possible in a similar manner to the wrangler. Then these can actually be unbanned in 6v6 and HL to make comp more accessible.
SneakyPolarBear3. Buff medic. Give him an LG or something that has a really high skill ceiling (like the xbow) but that actually gives him a hope in hell of winning a 1v1 fair fight (not like the xbow).
I don't necessarily agree with this; the only reason a medic dies in 6s is because something didn't get spotted, someone made a bad call, or you just get outplayed.
SneakyPolarBear4. Raise the skill ceiling and lower the skill floor for "pub" classes:
a. Lower the DPS of heavy. Make bullets have a tighter spread. Balance these such that if you track really well you can get the same DPS as the heavy has now (because less bullets are missing).
I can't agree with upping the Heavy's potential damage. I don't find them all that annoying to fight against (but obviously they NEED to get focused) but powering them up any more (IMO) would seriously slow down the game way too much in favor of a team that just runs a Heavy.
[quote=SneakyPolarBear]3. Buff medic. Give him an LG or something that has a really high skill ceiling (like the xbow) but that actually gives him a hope in hell of winning a 1v1 fair fight (not like the xbow).[/quote]
I don't necessarily agree with this; the only reason a medic dies in 6s is because something didn't get spotted, someone made a bad call, or you just get outplayed.
[quote=SneakyPolarBear]4. Raise the skill ceiling and lower the skill floor for "pub" classes:
a. Lower the DPS of heavy. Make bullets have a tighter spread. Balance these such that if you track really well you can get the same DPS as the heavy has now (because less bullets are missing).[/quote]
I can't agree with upping the Heavy's potential damage. I don't find them all that annoying to fight against (but obviously they NEED to get focused) but powering them up any more (IMO) would seriously slow down the game way too much in favor of a team that just runs a Heavy.
why is your name clutchwork
why is your name clutchwork
[quote=alfa]why is your name clutchwork[/quote]
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/7891/3#post-115636
I'd remove the 66.6... server tick cap and remove all of the random elements like random damage, projectile arcs and projectile rotation so that pipes always do 100 damage and when you shoot pipes and stickies they always travel the same exact arc and land in the same exact spot. Anything that's random is bad for a competitive game.
I'd remove the 66.6... server tick cap and remove all of the random elements like random damage, projectile arcs and projectile rotation so that pipes always do 100 damage and when you shoot pipes and stickies they always travel the same exact arc and land in the same exact spot. Anything that's random is bad for a competitive game.
hooliso that pipes always do 100 damage
http://i.imgur.com/8x3sR68.jpg
[quote=hooli]so that pipes always do 100 damage[/quote]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/8x3sR68.jpg[/img]
One barrier that I don't believe has been mentioned is payload and the fact that no payload maps are used in competitive play (not including highlander). This is a problem because loads of pubbers love this game mode.
Removing payload maps would make the game more "comp-centric", but it would also suck because 1. pubbers love payload and would probably quit the game if it were removed and 2. pubbing on Badwater owns.
There's really no good solution to this.
One barrier that I don't believe has been mentioned is payload and the fact that no payload maps are used in competitive play (not including highlander). This is a problem because loads of pubbers love this game mode.
Removing payload maps would make the game more "comp-centric", but it would also suck because 1. pubbers love payload and would probably quit the game if it were removed and 2. pubbing on Badwater owns.
There's really no good solution to this.
AbramelinOne barrier that I don't believe has been mentioned is payload and the fact that no payload maps are used in competitive play (not including highlander). This is a problem because loads of pubbers love this game mode.
Removing payload maps would make the game more "comp-centric", but it would also suck because 1. pubbers love payload and would probably quit the game if it were removed and 2. pubbing on Badwater owns.
There's really no good solution to this.
Hey man this is America! What kind of backwards, 3rd world, communist, freedom-hating person are you?
http://i.imgur.com/Kor5P11.gif
[quote=Abramelin]One barrier that I don't believe has been mentioned is payload and the fact that no payload maps are used in competitive play (not including highlander). This is a problem because loads of pubbers love this game mode.
Removing payload maps would make the game more "comp-centric", but it would also suck because 1. pubbers love payload and would probably quit the game if it were removed and 2. pubbing on Badwater owns.
There's really no good solution to this.[/quote]
Hey man this is America! What kind of backwards, 3rd world, communist, freedom-hating person are you?
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Kor5P11.gif[/img]
Pubbers love payload because it works in pubs. There's nothing worse than playing 5cp in a pub.
Pubbers love payload because it works in pubs. There's nothing worse than playing 5cp in a pub.