If you want to remove stalemates then enforce a 6 class limit on scout and nothing else. No stalemates possible.

The thing is, we have a well-developed meta that evolves by changing slightly each season (just like a real sport with stable rules, amazing isn't it?) and can produce amazing games.

Stalemates are a product of two equal teams battling over a symmetrical map (just like a real sport, amazing isn't it?).

Stalemates are not a huge problem and I've NEVER seen a 0-0 30 minute half with normal ubers and kritz (it may have happened but I don't recall it).

I'd say that we might have gotten a lot of crap weapons, but at least we can ban them. Valve have given us many many things over the years. Tournament mode comes to mind (which helps us out a lot) as well as tournament whitelists (which is kind of valves blessing to do what we want).

If you look at the weapons that valve has provides us, the game would be vastly different and probably much more boring if we didn't have the ones that we have now. Kritzkreig and gunboats are probably the two big ones that come to mind for me, which the two of them, especially the gunboats made a huge shift to the meta in a wholly positive direction. The other ones, well we can just set them to "0" on the whitelist and valve doesn't give a shit.

There's another thing you have to remember is that Valve has actually given us a lot just by making a successful game. I highly doubt that there would be anywhere near the size of comp that we have today if Valve hadn't made TF2 Free to play. In Ozfortress, we grew from 4 divisions to 6 divisions basically overnight when valve made the switch.

Can anyone imagine the horror of a granary stalemate when QFs collide with 2 equal teams?

I've yet to see how a QF vs QF on a granary mid stalemate might pan out but I'm equal parts horrified and curious.

HRG versus Mix^ .. woah awesome TF2 to watch! Loved the last ESEA. I thought.

>switched stream off mid way thru second half of first map.

~signed Pub TF2 noob / comp spectator

I watched a bit of ESEA LAN and it was so much fun to watch. Unlocks are simply part of TF2. I wish we had them in EU.

http://i.imgur.com/hOLm2.gif

Shouldn't running a heavy with the combo instead of a scout leave your flank really weak? I stopped watching after a bit but I didn't see anyone trying to abuse that really. With being able to jump your med around it seems like you could get away with using qf on the flank for picks, kiting their push since they have a heavy (either by backing up or maybe even jumping behind them so they can't push up?), and pushing back in before their respawns get back. And if they wait for respawns you'll basically have charge again.

idk, it doesn't always work out the way you theorycraft it, but it seems like it'd be worth a try.

So far what I think of the LAN after the last 6 seasons heavily watching it with other people.....

had to think what I wanted to say really

anyways, it def opens another dimension of how valuable pushes are which all these LAN teams have shown us so far, there def is more creativity and def some adjustments to be made

I do miss the uber vs uber battles because there is an excitement on what can happen but it def provides different ways how teams want to run mid pushes with qf and more kritz pushes as well and as TF2 fan it def is an excitement to see so much action is going on then the typical stalemates that have usually happened in the past. I am actually excited to see how a map as gravel pit can be played with a QF.

* Just my personal opinion I also worry what the game pace now, to someone that is just looking at this game for the first time in the competitive approach look at all the wackiness seeing medics jumping around and think well this is just weird. There will be mixed results as well but the heart of the community seems to enjoy the excitement that these teams have created so far.

Tri Hards ended up doing that in their match against mixup on gully when it started to look like it was going to turn into HRG vs Mixup again

im seeing people going spy so they can switch to sapper and see enemy medigun several times during lan

QF changing the meta so hard we're incorporating highlander strats

Next we'll have renaming mediguns.

Also from the grand finals matches being pretty fast I think we can narrow down the problem to gullywash.

you have a point, but a smart team would run a heavy instead of a solly most likely

gullywash is a lot faster without qf (and without hrg)

I should point out that people have been switching spy to check medigun for a VERY long time - much longer than HL has been kicking around. Mackey did it *all* the time on GPIT back when you saw GPIT more often.

yeah but mackey also went offensive engie

Unlocks are the one part of Comp TF2 that I never could understand. Maybe I am too old school of a player but I started the first day of quake and then QWTF, where your individual skill and the skill of your team determined who won and who lost.

Personally, I believe comp TF2 should have no unlocks at all. I can't understand why certain "items" can give a team an advantage over other teams who are less skilled.

Everything should be even across the board. In those situations, the better team will win every time. In the end, isn't that what Competitive play is about? The better team wins and individual items should not be a factor in determining that.

Several items give more specialized roles which have only been beneficial to the game. Kritzkrieg, Gunboats, Equalizer, and Boston Basher to name a few. Banning all unlocks is detrimental to the game for both players and spectators.

Through the mangled quote I see your tear, and I too shed one.

I like gully :'(

If there are 10 invite captains, how many votes will be needed to force a ban? I'm wondering how the votes will go now so that I can prepare for life with/without quickfix.

If this S12-13 list (with 8 teams) is of any indication, a weapon receiving 4 or more votes was banned. So I'm presuming it will take 5 this go around to ban a weapon.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiqicP2pfCqCdFo2V3FfTUVwbHB1YWZYYUdjVFBtVVE#gid=0

Has anyone ran buff banner against this yet? Seems like it could be well suited vs qf and could possibly counter some of the heavy strats.

it's a mini kritz, not enough to out-dps a heavy
it can be cool to activate it and jump their med with the qf uber, but it takes forever and a half to charge

One of the things that makes tf2 such a great competitive fps is that it isn't the team with the better dm that always wins, it's usually the team with the better strategies. Unlocks that give a worse team a clear advantage over a better team are op and banned, but the unlocks that allow for interesting strategies and are sidegrades should be allowed. If a team ran kritz 24/7 they would get destroyed, but a team that knows when to use kritz in the right situation will be good. The only question is whether the quick-fix is op or not.

I think it might be interesting to ban quick-fix on 5 cp maps, but allow it on koth and ad maps. Also I think there should be more koth and AD maps. Edifice is GREAT!

If it doesn't get nerfed im hope the invite captains will vote to ban.

I would agree with this assessment. The advantage in running unlocks lies in the ability to pair two or more of them together to create a unique play, like the Conch play for example. While yes technically the Heavy/QF combo is also such a play, it can be countered quickly after you run into it. It just took the top two teams in NA 45 minutes to figure something out.

Dang, just didn't realized just how much Quickfix could change the way 6's are being played. I'm still a strong supporter of the QF, but it needs to be banned. Just until it can be nerf'd or tweak'd out a bit more.

*sigh* I was slightly disappointed at this year's LAN display.

I'm late to the party/no one cares but some things people have hinted at but haven't come right out and said:

1. We all know how much Valve cares about competitive TF2. Thus, we can argue all we want about what nerf the Quick-Fix should get but Valve probably won't do anything. It's not unbalanced in pubs where sentries and heavies are a dime-a-dozen.

I'm newish to comp TF2 so I don't know if there's a precedent for Valve nerfing a weapon just to keep competitive happy. In fact--there's the opposite with the Equalizer/Escape Plan nerfing.

2. The fact that Quick-Fix always builds at the same rate is probably a bug/oversight. I'm not sure they realized that the build rate is based on max health at 150% rather than 125%. It should be scaled based on that gun's max health. Or at least, that's what I hope. This would help nerf it a bit and make regular Uber a better counter to it, since QF won't build as fast. That and a few other smaller nerfs could bring the Quick-Fix back in line with the other guns, but testing would help with this.

It also heals much faster tha the medigun and kritz. I could be wrong, but I believe kritz and medigun heal at 24 hp/s when not under crit-heals, whereas the quick fix heals at ~30 hp/s before crit-heals. It's a significant advantage in fights where keeping people alive is a priority.

I'm not sure about this either, but I think that the hp/s crit heal cap is higher on quick fix, as in > 72hp/s. I tried to verify this by looking at the wiki but it won't load.

Here ya go, just in case:

Uber/Kritz:

http://puu.sh/45YYT/865c730156.png

Quick Fix:

http://puu.sh/45YZo/0df427929f.png

Vaccinator (for "lulz"):

http://puu.sh/45YZO/d57ed8eb70.png

That's kind of the point to the Quick Fix and I'm okay with it--although it could be lowered slightly as another nerf. Uber and Kritz are still effective in some situations due to that higher max health. But you don't want to pile on too many nerfs if you were to attempt to balance things.