If this was dota2 with a really wide selection of heroes and shit that you could actual ban, I'd understand it. But dota2 has enough selection and variety to actually support drastic changes because the meta isn't just limited to 2-3 strats on a given map but a huge selection and combination of heroes + banning. There was no fallback for the meta and it's a pretty awful state. Most unlocks are shit compared to stock weapons and implementing a weapon banning system would be painful since valve has none built in.

But hey dude, I've pubbed in ~3 "normal" servers and half the server is doing conga lines instead of playing the game, so we got that going now.

After seeing some more, I think there is a happy medium that should be reached between this update (which is increasingly seeming to be too much of a nerf) and what the demo was before (which obviously doesn't work for Valve, and has it's problems).

Some neat ideas have been suggested in this thread, including but not limited to, tightening the blast radius of stickies, reducing the ramp up time from 2 to 1 seconds, reverting to the old damage and reducing the sticky clip (either to 4 or 6), keeping the current nerf and increasing the pipe launcher clip to 6.

These all seem like better ways of handling a demoman nerf, with the last one being more of a consolation after the fact.

Also, keep it up guys, 6 more posts. We can do it.

We need to hit the 1000 so Bloodsire, what would you do with The Classic?

i like this one the most because not only does it lessen spam, it would also increase the amount of aim people put into stickies knowing that you have 4 less in your clip.

6 pipes on the ground is way stupider than sticky spamming ever was
dmg nerf accross the bored fujcjks th clas
belcurv dmg were u do lik ~old dmg at mid rng but less (more tan now mayb) at point blank woulld be better bcuz thn demo wouldnt be a frag god and u wouldnt litrly kill th game :)

While we're at it can the self-damage to demo also be scaled the same way that stickies are? I'd feel a little better about things if I could do 20 damage jumps to complement the 20 damage stickies.

wtf is wrong with ur keyboard

i am the hero

edit: i'm sorry i couldn't contain myself. i am actually ashamed

Well, possimple, I am so glad that you asked. Since I am a giant tiny nerd, I refuse to use anything but the Classic, which in turn makes me feel gimped, useless and—as aformentioned—exceedingly nerdy. This leads me to ponder things like reinstalling TFC, the possible future of the Classic in comp TF2, and what it would take to get it there. Because—if you havent gotten it yet, I am a huge nerd—this has further lead me to concieivng and posting possible Classic changes here: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3245759

Somewhere, there must be someone from Valve reading something. On the off chance that something is a TF2 forum and threads about their latest work, I figured maybe it might help.

What do ya think? Feel free to post and bump that thread.

its missng the key

is it bad that i think that instead of this stupid rampup thing, the damage should be based on how long you charge the sticky

classic is the most fun i've ever had with sniper. a minor buff or two and it will be perfect (c u in 3 years). i wonder if they are gonna like try to nerf things down to demo's level. heavy doesn't seem significantly weaker so i doubt it. imagine a (fair) nerf to soldier and scout. what a world that'd be

A lot of people posting here have been suggesting that having any sort of promod would "kill the game," presumably because they believe it would produce too great a divide between pub play and competitive play. I know my opinion isn't particularly important, but I disagree with this: using a mod (such as tftrue) to remove the sticky ramp-up would not be significantly different from what we as a community have already done to the game. For instance:

1) Class limits - we're so used to this that it's easy to forget how shocking this is to a pub player unfamiliar with 6v6. 6v6 immediately strikes a pub player as strangely empty, as they're used to 12v12. Add on top of that telling them that they can no longer main their favorite class (if it's spy, pyro, sniper, etc.) and you've already setup a huge divide.

2) Whitelists - now you've not only told someone they can't play their favorite class, but they can't use their favorite items. A large number of people would be very upset that they can no longer use gunslinger or loch-n-load. Whitelists aren't mods, but they are modifications required on the part of server owners that are rarely seen on pub servers.

3) Custom maps - now snakewater, process, etc. have been accepted as official maps, but for a long time they were seen almost exclusively in competitive tf2. And now we have even newer maps, like metaworks and sunshine. New players will be confused at the very least, and a good deal of them will be upset - they'll wonder why we can't we play dustbowl or 2fort like they usually spend most of their game time on. Further, this is also a 3rd party file that both server owners and players are responsible for downloading and installing, like a mod would be.

4) Server variables - remember, to even get on the valve quickplay list your server has to have random crits turned on. We turn off random crits, damage spread, weapon spread, and a bunch of other modifications. I fail to see how just because valve happened to provide a built-in way to modify the rules of the game, this is essentially any different from changing a server variable using a mod like tftrue.

Let's be honest with ourselves - what will be more off-putting to a pub player trying out 6v6 for the first time: being told they have to play on a strange map with a class they don't usually play and weapons they don't like, or simply reverting the sticky damage back to what the vast majority of players, both pub and competitive, are used to already?

But a promod would not only further the stereotype that 6s players are shitlords that can't adapt and are completely attached to our own little world, but later down the road when this nerf (and any other changes that may come up) fade from people's memories then any new player coming into 6s will have to relearn classes because what they have experienced is so much different than what they've already played. Further increasing the gap between 6s and pubs would end up causing more problems than it solves, and as painful as adapting to this and any future changes may be it's better than the alternative.

we should make a kickstarter so that we can raise enough money to pay a few dudes to sit in an apartment for 2 years and make a game thats just like 6v6 tf2. They would playtest the game with high level players (except doowatnuh) in order to produce a game thats just like the one we love so much but faster, more exciting, and with better hit-reg. we could call it FAST FORTRESS: ARENA or something to make it seem super e-sports and shit.

wait a minute thats completely unrealistic nevermind :<

Imagine a world where someone starts playing TF2, stickies do barely any damage in pubs and he's gotten accustomed to it. He then hears about a competitive side of the game he's grown so fond of only to realize that in this sick twisted world stickies reign supreme and dishing out almost double the damage he's been playing against since he first started TF2.

Idk, I think that's a little more startling than "you can't use soda popper sry"

Difference is all those are implemented by Valve. On top of that, currently all weapons fundamentally work the same across all game modes, a soda popper will let you jump loads in a pub, in 6v6 and in highlander. This would be an external mod that makes the sticky launcher work fundamentally different in pubs to 6v6 and highlander.

That's funny, this was in a tightrope update and people on this forum said that it was a terrible Nerf.

i think some people have changed their opinions after seeing just how big of a difference stickies make when they get changed.

One of the best ideas I've seen floating around is add the sticky charge time to the ramp up timer. That way, long range sticky snipes still do full damage, and by the time they get to the target mid range stickies will probably reach full damage as well. Close quarters combat as demo will still be horrible, but that is something that can be compensated for by changing strategy more so than the current state of demo.

Be careful! Any buff to the pipe launcher is a buff to the targe :D

i think that jump power relies on sticky damage so less self damage means you jumps wouldn't go as far i believe, not sure though. I don't seem to juggle anything with stickies at the current rate of damage so that's what i base it on.

I go to Germany for 3 fucking weeks and Valve ruins the sticky launcher.

Nerdy theory crafting incoming-

I remember way way back to starting this game, my instinctual thought with sticky bombs was that the longer I charged the shot, the more damage it would do. However, I quickly learned that it actually just made them go further. But now, the hot question is why doesn't it work that way? Why wouldn't ramp up start at your mouse click? I understand the sticky charge would ideally just be a single mechanic (distance) but would ramp-up on mouse click be too imba?

Ramp-up on click would continue to lessen overall spam since you would still have to wait for a charge time, and sticky traps would be unaffected since you would still just leave them out to dry. (Assuming ramp-up continues after launching the sticky.) But overall would give the individual more feel for how much damage their newly fired sticky will do. This would mean that Demoman running away from you backwards looking at the ground is charging his shot, and you have time to attack him before he gets his full damage OR he continues to m1 m2 and does the lessened damage but will potentially juggle you.

This would also readily apply to Heavy's spin-up time. As it is now (from my understanding, please correct if I am wrong) if you are currently spun-up you wouldn't begin either of your ramp-ups, accuracy/damage, until you begin to fire. However, if you think of the Heavy's spin-up in the same sense as the Demoman's sticky charge, the Heavy should ideally begin his ramp-up even if during his idle spin-up time. A heavy walking around spun-up is slow, immobile, and usually loud; there is little reason for him NOT to get his ramp-up during this time. If you jump a spun-up Heavy you will die. If you get to him before that time and he has to start fire when he sees you that is a fair trade and you, as someone attacking the Heavy, have 1 second to either kill him, run, or be shredded after his full ramp-up time.

tldr; there are so many ideas in this thread alone that would have made for better, more balanced nerfs than what we were delivered. Thanks, Valve.

If you'd also get less force from it, it would break demo jumping (unless it would work like the liberty launcher ofcourse), also point blank stickies don't do 20 damage even now it is nerfed.

Mids as scout are weird. im used to getting spammed by a demo and having to retreat. the 19 damage stickies dont really scare me anymore i can just do whatever i please :D

And that right there is the point of this thread

idk about you guys but the stickybomb carpet strat is amazin

|* * * | <- wall
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more territory control than hydro

Why would you even question installing TFC?!?! Just do it - it's still fun as hell even in 4v4 format. Or just go to drippy's 2fort server (or whatever it's called) and pop some heads.

I wonder how many more days I need to wait before flame apologizes to me for being a fucking retard in this thread