The two soldier thread got me thinking about the potential of running both soldiers with the medic, and putting demo behind the scouts on flank instead. would two 300 hp soldiers both hugging the medic be effective? Has a team tried this in the past?
Sorry for the typo in the title
The two soldier thread got me thinking about the potential of running both soldiers with the medic, and putting demo behind the scouts on flank instead. would two 300 hp soldiers both hugging the medic be effective? Has a team tried this in the past?
Sorry for the typo in the title
im pretty sure everything has been tried but its just not been developed enough to be effective against a real team
im pretty sure everything has been tried but its just not been developed enough to be effective against a real team
Has a team ever tried to pocket soldiers?
no, never
I don't think two pockets has been tried, at least not seriously. Might be worth trying, but it would be a little weird.
[quote]Has a team ever tried to pocket soldiers?[/quote]
no, never
I don't think two pockets has been tried, at least not seriously. Might be worth trying, but it would be a little weird.
Demo flank used to be a thing way back when. Before gunboats. Before hats.
Demo flank used to be a thing way back when. Before gunboats. Before hats.
Maybe if the demo ran with paintrain, or a health buff, putting him on flank wouldn't be so bad, giving the combo 750 health seems like it would be pretty insane.
Maybe if the demo ran with paintrain, or a health buff, putting him on flank wouldn't be so bad, giving the combo 750 health seems like it would be pretty insane.
Pretty sure it'd be tough to get the same level of spam out with two pockets. Either both soldiers are eating damage by standing close to the choke, or one soldier has to stand farther back and do less damage with his rockets. With a demo/soldier combo you have the point blank damage as well as the lobbed damage.
The demo also can't get as aggressive on the flank as a soldier can, especially when it comes to leading for his scout.
It could probably do ok in open or something if you had a demo with really good pipes and two heal vacuum soldiers but the downsides outweigh the benefits in a theoretical sense.
Pretty sure it'd be tough to get the same level of spam out with two pockets. Either both soldiers are eating damage by standing close to the choke, or one soldier has to stand farther back and do less damage with his rockets. With a demo/soldier combo you have the point blank damage as well as the lobbed damage.
The demo also can't get as aggressive on the flank as a soldier can, especially when it comes to leading for his scout.
It could probably do ok in open or something if you had a demo with really good pipes and two heal vacuum soldiers but the downsides outweigh the benefits in a theoretical sense.
SnazMaybe if the demo ran with paintrain, or a health buff, putting him on flank wouldn't be so bad, giving the combo 750 health seems like it would be pretty insane.
You can give the demo 300 hp with booties if you really want him peeking the chokes for you. I'm not sure why you'd want that tho
[quote=Snaz]Maybe if the demo ran with paintrain, or a health buff, putting him on flank wouldn't be so bad, giving the combo 750 health seems like it would be pretty insane.[/quote]
You can give the demo 300 hp with booties if you really want him peeking the chokes for you. I'm not sure why you'd want that tho
it's barely any more health to the combo and ur sacrificing hella dmg for the combo
it's barely any more health to the combo and ur sacrificing hella dmg for the combo
[img]http://tf2wiki.net/ww/images/thumb/9/93/Sticky_proj_blu.png/125px-Sticky_proj_blu.png[/img] [b][size=16]>[/size][/b] [img]http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130710034700/teamfortress/images/a/a6/Rocket_Launcher_kill_icon_TF2.png[/img]
Mr_OwlPretty sure it'd be tough to get the same level of spam out with two pockets. Either both soldiers are eating damage by standing close to the choke, or one soldier has to stand farther back and do less damage with his rockets. With a demo/soldier combo you have the point blank damage as well as the lobbed damage.
Its not like you would march through chokes together, at least I wouldn't if I was healing them. Buff both, push through choke with 1, then leap frog your soldiers constantly getting a fresh soldier in their face. Theoretically it seems like it would be effective.
[quote=Mr_Owl]Pretty sure it'd be tough to get the same level of spam out with two pockets. Either both soldiers are eating damage by standing close to the choke, or one soldier has to stand farther back and do less damage with his rockets. With a demo/soldier combo you have the point blank damage as well as the lobbed damage.
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Its not like you would march through chokes together, at least I wouldn't if I was healing them. Buff both, push through choke with 1, then leap frog your soldiers constantly getting a fresh soldier in their face. Theoretically it seems like it would be effective.
I'm not sure. I could see this potentially having a really good turnout on a map like process or something. A map where you have a lot of room for chasing and mobility I could see it working really well. Two soldiers being flashed jumping through a choke could potentially be really scary but you could probably do the same thing with a demo. Not sure I'd like to see someone try it
I'm not sure. I could see this potentially having a really good turnout on a map like process or something. A map where you have a lot of room for chasing and mobility I could see it working really well. Two soldiers being flashed jumping through a choke could potentially be really scary but you could probably do the same thing with a demo. Not sure I'd like to see someone try it
i'm pretty sure any other possible combination of vanilla classes getting pocketed would be better than 2 soldiers.
i'm pretty sure any other possible combination of vanilla classes getting pocketed would be better than 2 soldiers.
demo is the biggest damage dealer. Why would you not give him the heals?
demo is the biggest damage dealer. Why would you not give him the heals?
MR_SLINdemo can create space
If you count creating as destroying and space as the enemy team then yes
[quote=MR_SLIN]demo can create space[/quote]
If you count creating as destroying and space as the enemy team then yes
I think it worked in a process pug I played, but that was probably cause of the quick fix.
I think it worked in a process pug I played, but that was probably cause of the quick fix.
some teams used to do this before gunboats, like not really having a set pocket but rotating. if the soldier with 300hp wanted to go aggressive the other soldier took over pocketing. I remember both soldiers playing around the medic a lot as well. I dont think its worth it now since gunboats exist.
some teams used to do this before gunboats, like not really having a set pocket but rotating. if the soldier with 300hp wanted to go aggressive the other soldier took over pocketing. I remember both soldiers playing around the medic a lot as well. I dont think its worth it now since gunboats exist.
wonderlandsome teams used to do this before gunboats, like not really having a set pocket but rotating. if the soldier with 300hp wanted to go aggressive the other soldier took over pocketing. I remember both soldiers playing around the medic a lot as well. I dont think its worth it now since gunboats exist.
i think i remember a similar thing where pure did a demo review of HRG vs his team fully torqued on gully, where they let him watch the flank with seanbud I think(?) and they let the heals focus on the soldiers instead if i remember correctly. helped them win 3 rounds but when they shifted positions they got steamrolled
i dunno, i'll find the review
edit: found it
(part 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUhj_Tk0stE)
(part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EBFtSqrGjY)
[quote=wonderland]some teams used to do this before gunboats, like not really having a set pocket but rotating. if the soldier with 300hp wanted to go aggressive the other soldier took over pocketing. I remember both soldiers playing around the medic a lot as well. I dont think its worth it now since gunboats exist.[/quote]
i think i remember a similar thing where pure did a demo review of HRG vs his team fully torqued on gully, where they let him watch the flank with seanbud I think(?) and they let the heals focus on the soldiers instead if i remember correctly. helped them win 3 rounds but when they shifted positions they got steamrolled
i dunno, i'll find the review
edit: found it
(part 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUhj_Tk0stE)
(part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EBFtSqrGjY)
healing a soldier to 300 is like pearl harbor healing a demo to 260 is like nagasaki
healing a soldier to 300 is like pearl harbor healing a demo to 260 is like nagasaki
If demo had got the gunboats this would be a different story altogether... imagine kaidus
If demo had got the gunboats this would be a different story altogether... imagine kaidus
Considering gunboats are a thing and assuming we're talking about having two shotgun soldiers pocket, it'd be pretty pointless now. You're not gonna have the demo do what the roamer otherwise would with bombing and expect the same odds of dropping/popping. And if you sent in one of the pocket soldiers, your medic is stuck with one other player that has a decent chance of getting overrun if the bomb fails and the demo isn't providing crowd control for the combo.
Considering gunboats are a thing and assuming we're talking about having two shotgun soldiers pocket, it'd be pretty pointless now. You're not gonna have the demo do what the roamer otherwise would with bombing and expect the same odds of dropping/popping. And if you sent in one of the pocket soldiers, your medic is stuck with one other player that has a decent chance of getting overrun if the bomb fails and the demo isn't providing crowd control for the combo.
wouldn't the main issue be with demo getting ripped apart by scouts on flank?
Other than that, nevermind the pocket performing at his best at 300, with two soldiers constantly begging for buffs you'd barely ever get your flank healed up. Having to rely slightly more heavy on crit heals than we already do would be trickier and be fucked up.
wouldn't the main issue be with demo getting ripped apart by scouts on flank?
Other than that, nevermind the pocket performing at his best at 300, with two soldiers constantly begging for buffs you'd barely ever get your flank healed up. Having to rely slightly more heavy on crit heals than we already do would be trickier and be fucked up.
Around season 8 or so there was an idea of being able to freely rotate between pocket/roamer. One example was a MGE video of TLR explaining how he and the roamer (Dave_AC or ww, I forget) would switch off jumping spire, with one guy sitting with the medic getting healed and the other going.
Around season 8 or so there was an idea of being able to freely rotate between pocket/roamer. One example was a MGE video of TLR explaining how he and the roamer (Dave_AC or ww, I forget) would switch off jumping spire, with one guy sitting with the medic getting healed and the other going.
Well to be fair, it's not necessarily the demo tanking heals now, but the scouts (you can dispense with healing the demo most of the time assuming there are enough players in front of said demo meat shielding). A scout without 185 isn't even playing the game in most circumstances. Most heal stats still show demos being healed more than scouts, but I think that's mainly a question of how heal statistics are recorded (healing actual HP damage vs. buffs) since scouts have less base HP -) less heals on stats per second of healing.
Well to be fair, it's not necessarily the demo tanking heals now, but the scouts (you can dispense with healing the demo most of the time assuming there are enough players in front of said demo meat shielding). A scout without 185 isn't even playing the game in most circumstances. Most heal stats still show demos being healed more than scouts, but I think that's mainly a question of how heal statistics are recorded (healing actual HP damage vs. buffs) since scouts have less base HP -) less heals on stats per second of healing.
You're basically discussing moving the meta back to 2008 mode, but this time we have gunboats as well to make this idea even worse :D
You're basically discussing moving the meta back to 2008 mode, but this time we have gunboats as well to make this idea even worse :D
Back in the dark days when my PC sucked to much to play TF2 and I had to play competitive xbox TF2, this would always be a viable option because neither soldier could use gunboats, and it was played similar to how scouts play, where one goes and does work while the other gets heals and then they swap.
Back in the dark days when my PC sucked to much to play TF2 and I had to play competitive xbox TF2, this would always be a viable option because neither soldier could use gunboats, and it was played similar to how scouts play, where one goes and does work while the other gets heals and then they swap.
On the topic of different metas, would including classes that are hard counters to the current meta work? Say have a pyro (Counters projectile classes) in the combo and permanently run a pick class (either sniper or spy) in or around the flank? Idk, maybe if you sub out the right classes it would be okay. What do you guys think?
On the topic of different metas, would including classes that are hard counters to the current meta work? Say have a pyro (Counters projectile classes) in the combo and permanently run a pick class (either sniper or spy) in or around the flank? Idk, maybe if you sub out the right classes it would be okay. What do you guys think?
GoobledegakOn the topic of different metas, would including classes that are hard counters to the current meta work? Say have a pyro (Counters projectile classes) in the combo and permanently run a pick class (either sniper or spy) in or around the flank? Idk, maybe if you sub out the right classes it would be okay. What do you guys think?
A pyro doesn't have the mobility to keep up with the pace of the game. A pyro can't jump and contest spire if it's being captured, and it can't jump and do damage on a midfight. You are essentially giving up a roamer or a scout's mobility in exchange for having another class in the combo soaking up unnecessary heals.
Running pyro AND a sniper is just asking to get pushed. A pyro doesn't have the DM of a soldier or a scout, and unless the sniper is constantly bagging headshots or the spy is constantly not getting found, you would get floored.
[quote=Goobledegak]On the topic of different metas, would including classes that are hard counters to the current meta work? Say have a pyro (Counters projectile classes) in the combo and permanently run a pick class (either sniper or spy) in or around the flank? Idk, maybe if you sub out the right classes it would be okay. What do you guys think?[/quote]
A pyro doesn't have the mobility to keep up with the pace of the game. A pyro can't jump and contest spire if it's being captured, and it can't jump and do damage on a midfight. You are essentially giving up a roamer or a scout's mobility in exchange for having another class in the combo soaking up unnecessary heals.
Running pyro AND a sniper is just asking to get pushed. A pyro doesn't have the DM of a soldier or a scout, and unless the sniper is constantly bagging headshots or the spy is constantly not getting found, you would get floored.
The cookie cutter setup you see today isn't some coincidence. It is the best setup for winning a game due to each class's natural effectiveness. If there was a better solution, people would be doing that. It won't change unless dramatic changes are made to a class/weapons. The demo nerf nearly did it.
The cookie cutter setup you see today isn't some coincidence. It is the best setup for winning a game due to each class's natural effectiveness. If there was a better solution, people would be doing that. It won't change unless dramatic changes are made to a class/weapons. The demo nerf nearly did it.
It is not good. Soldiers want to be close when fighting due to rocket fall off damage. Both soldiers are going to want to be in a similar position in fights. Couple that with the fact that soldier is insanely slow and you will be eating all the spam 2x. No one is pocket when you can never get your players above 200. Demo wants to follow just behind the soldier in a mid range area. This avoids two players eating the same spam.
This is besides the fact that having a bombing/flanking soldier is useful, demos can do huge burst damage, and having your demo up makes pushes much harder for the other team.
It is not good. Soldiers want to be close when fighting due to rocket fall off damage. Both soldiers are going to want to be in a similar position in fights. Couple that with the fact that soldier is insanely slow and you will be eating all the spam 2x. No one is pocket when you can never get your players above 200. Demo wants to follow just behind the soldier in a mid range area. This avoids two players eating the same spam.
This is besides the fact that having a bombing/flanking soldier is useful, demos can do huge burst damage, and having your demo up makes pushes much harder for the other team.