I was actually specifically thinking of that series when I said that. I never understood what made people enjoy that game.

MNC was a fun DM game, but it was boring to kill neutral bots. And in SMNC, you had to kill neutral bots if you wanted any success in winning, which is probably why it failed even more than its predecessor.

I think Bloodsire had a lot of good points in his post.

Though when I watch this game, for me personally, it just doesn't seem like something I could get behind as much as I have with TF2. I cant pinpoint exactly what it is about it. Now who knows, that could COMPLETELY change once I actually play the game. This is just based off of what I have seen of it. I think I still just have this bias where I think TF2 is the best competitive FPS game to ever exist ever

Although I'd agree the community as a whole considers TF2 a great competitive game (obviously on TFTV), I think most people would say TF2 is hardly the best competitive FPS. Definitely one of the most fun to most of us, but a lot of other FPS's I feel have proper developer competitive support, communities, gameplay etc. What other competitive FPS games have you seen/played?

Also, after looking at the shoutcast I don't think it'll be as fun as TF2 for a long while. It reminds me of a ton of Asian F2P fps games that really don't have as much staying power. The good thing is that it's from Blizzard so it's guaranteed millions of people trying it/playing it for a while, but I really doubt the balance is anywhere near where people will want to be. Also, doesn't seem like much opportunity for airshotting (I think there's the orb skill which has a huge radius anyways) and the tank classes can take a ton of damage anyways so there's no big "wow" factor like you can do in TF2. Of course we'll still have to wait until it actually hits release because the game and balance will probably change drastically.

Well thats the thing. Its the best to us that play it. To those on the outside, they don't see it for what we do, and the incredible gameplay that can come from it in competition. And yes, other games get much more competitive support, but for pure gameplay in its competitive format, I'd pick TF2 anyday. As far as other games, I've played many of them that had a competitive following, and I played them at some level of competition. Anything from Day of Defeat 1.3 and Source, to CS:S, Crossfire, a couple of the Call of Duty games, Soldier Front 2, etc. Out of all of the games that I have played, I think this gives the most entertaining and exciting gameplay. Of course this is just a personal opinion.

But that's what I saw in the gameplay, no 'wow' factor. No airshotting really, as well as (at least as far as I saw) not even like rocket jumping and things like that. Those are just some of the things that I really love about TF2. Though none of us will really know its potential until we play it ourselves. I wont count it out until I play it.

Though for the record, Day of Defeat 1.3 was a close second for me as far as the most fun competitive FPS games I've ever played.

Quote from a PC Gamer article:

Gotta say this killed some of my hype. Doesn't sound like it'll be much like TF2 at all, and after watching some of that shoutcast it sure looked it too.

I'm really worried that people are coming to see MOBA-style mechanics as something to be aspired to instead of the lowest common denominator of competitive gaming. Accessibility and volume seem to be a lot more important to everyone than learning curves and depth. MOBA-style designs build out not up, and I don't think it bodes well for future competitive games.

Also, for the record I think TF2 is the best or one of the best competitive shooters too. It's our teams who were winning the Shootmania (lol) and Titanfall tournaments, if I remember correctly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qvFxGoQ3ME

There's no need. Both games will have their strengths and weaknesses and benefit from each other. At the end of the day, it comes down to individual preference.

http://i.imgur.com/oomyzMS.gif

*activate vizor for increased accuracy*
*enlarge ass for better stability*

It bothers me that it "doesn't have quake in its DNA", but tf2s hard counter system is fucking retarded. I'm glad blizzard did away with it.

doesnt look like something id enjoy, it looks like its going to be a clusterfuck of a thousand different lazers and projectiles and 10 clases coming at you from above bc at least half of those classes can fly

Yeah, I really hate this trend in competitive games these days. Like how developers or marketing teams try to make people think that knowing how to use a bunch of gimmicky spells/skills and their synergy/timing requires more time, dedication and effort than practicing(and perfectly executing at the right time) a learned mechanic such as strafe/circle jumping in a Quake-like game.

Typical intern-level character skinning/rigging, haha.

I saw this as a response to that once:

Blizzard's interns are just professional sharpshooters and have a deeper understanding of the tools of the trade. Like inflatable asses.

I'm not seeing how they will "benefit from eachother" from any perspective really. From Valve/Blizzard's perspective they will be thinking of it like a business.

I love that Zen dude's attack animations. He gets to float around cross-legged and shoot orbs at people. Lol

Now I'm imagining a Nihilanth skin for him, if the game is moddable.

Shoots fired.

We'll definitely see about that with this game since it's gonna be a big attempt to try to get people to play a competitive fps with MOBA-style mechanics.

I think these mechanics help to get the attention and interest of the casual players allowing the use of ultis and whatnot to beat the more skilled players with a bit of luck, which also helps to mantain a casual gamer base. In my eyes, tf2 was one of the first fps to have this, with things like medic uber, spy's watches and backstab, sniper rifle charge, countless of unlocks and pyro. Overwatch seems like the next step in that way.

Even in comp tf2 we plan and play everything off the medic's uber charge, I don't see why we couldn't do the same but play off several player's ultis instead of just one.

I'm excited to see what the game could bring competitively. What worries me is the supposed plans for "a lot more heroes", which pushes the game more towards MOBA hero selection rather than say class selection in TF2, where it's a relatively limited and constant pool. Simply my opinion but I don't think having a 50+ character pool with so many options will translate as well in an FPS where the "feel" of a character is much more apparent.

I'm also pretty worried it's likely to take the little/no customization route of MOBAs. I mean even saying "Alright, if we can't change the hud around it's okay", will you be able to change your crosshair (I don't know, all I could think of seeing the trailer was TF2+Brink+MOBA, and since the crosshair(s) look very similar to those used in Brink and you weren't allowed to even change it to a simple + to my knowledge)? Perhaps I'm worrying about nothing but who knows what to expect.

That's not quite what I meant. Mechanics in MOBAs are entirely autonomous and bound to a button instead of dependent on the player's technical and mental abilities. Uber is probably the most MOBA-like quality tf2 has, but because it exists within a non MOBA-like environment it has an extra dimension of complexity.

Mechanical skills (such as aiming or rocket jumping) create room for error, and room for error results in the wide variety of playstyles that exist within the same class or loadout. As a player, you need to learn your strengths and weaknesses with the mechanics and construct a playstyle that best compliments it. Look at how radically different scouts like Clockwork and Enigma are. But in a MOBA-style game, everyone has the exact same strengths and weaknesses with a mechanic because the mechanic is executed automatically, independent of the player (minus pushing the button). This completely eliminates any differing playstyles, except how that character operates in a team.

In TF2, we have that team (MOBA) side of the game and we have that solo mechanical (Quake) side of the game. These two together produces that third hybrid aspect of creating your playstyle to exist within each of the two previous ones. All three of these together make TF2 an immensely more complex game than anything based on MOBAs could ever hope to be. That's what I call building up, adding a hundred heros to make up for the simplicity of the game is what I call building out.

I don't really want to write up a massive post to respond to this but I actually completely disagree with your claim that MOBAs are simple because the skills are always the same. They're always the same in the exact same way that in TF2 rockets are always the same, pipes are always the same, double jumps are always the same and so on. If you think there's no margin for error in a MOBA compared to something like TF2 and you think somehow that TF2 is immensely more complicated than it actually is, I have a feeling you haven't played or watched very much of any of the popular MOBAs really.

As someone who played Dota from 2006-2009 with a reasonable amount of in-house experience, I've always got two very distinct, opposite impressions from arena shooters and MOBAs.

I do agree that MOBA skills/spells aren't as simple as pushing a button and everything happening perfectly, especially when talking of skills such as Pudge's hook, Mirana's arrow, Puck's combos, etc. Yes, there is also skill involved in timing/planning spell combos, juking, animation cancelling, etc; but to say, for example, that TF2 pipes are all the same is like saying every pipe requires the same skill to hit, at any range, against any class as Pudge's meat-hook.

This, of course is nonsensical, and ties into the point Alleal was making quite well. Many MOBA active abilities put little or no emphasis on mastery of aim, prediction, spatial awareness, aural awareness, hand-eye co-ordination(let's face it, how many skills like arrow/hook exist? 20% at best?) and focus on having more spells/combos for the illusion of gameplay depth.

That's always been my take on it, though.

you could still have a different playstyle with the same MOBA ability, even if it's not a skillshot. for example, you could use an ability to open up a fight, or use it as a finisher to secure a kill. you could use a champion with no skillshots to take 1v1 fights, or group up and gank people.

i think there's plenty of room for style even in a MOBA game.

That's about as true as firing a rocket, pressing jump, switching weapons and detting stickies are entirely autonomous and bound to a button instead of dependent on the player's technical and mental abilities.

Timing, placement and aiming matters just as much in the usage of any 'skill' abilities in a Moba, only in traditional moba you aren't dealing with 3 dimensions of aiming. You aim them or they affect a given area around your player. They have cooldowns so if the enemy does not use them to maximum effect they are vulnerable....you can bait them into wasting them (hmm kind of sounds like an uber?). You can dodge the abilities through your movement. I'm not sure why the assumption is that movement and aiming which is already used heavily in moba's in a 2d space won't play an even bigger part when you introduce the third dimension.

http://www.dailydot.com/esports/overwatch-blizzard-blizzcon-handson/

If they are able to balance it, it'll probably be amazing.

The defense classes seem dumb, and I'm glad the article touched on that. There are interesting, dynamic movement options for most classes. And then there is bastion and torbjorn, which don't do much except sit in an area and make sure people can't come through a choke. Because engie and heavy are so much fun in tf2.