all of those things apply to every sport to some degree though. out of x participants in a league, only y% are going to continue playing after a season, in CS, TF2, football, or chess. People play, realize they don't like the game enough to put time into it, and quit.
It being harder to get 6 people together isn't inherent to TF2, CS might be easier, but only because of a larger player base allowing people that no one likes to group together. There's only one BAD PERSON in tf2 but if there's like 10 in CS you can just make 2 teams (awful). People obviously get burned out on other games too, otherwise CS would be dominated by people from the 90s, but clearly people quit CS, and not everyone makes it past Open/IM in it either, otherwise invite would need to be substantially larger.
Get more people at the bottom, and the burnout rate wont matter because you'll still have more people filtering through to Open and invite. Short of changing how 6s works, you aren't going to make people who disliked 6s in steel like it in open. You could worry that 50% of tf2 players quit, while only 45% of CS players quit per season, but it wouldn't matter anyway.
all of those things apply to every sport to some degree though. out of x participants in a league, only y% are going to continue playing after a season, in CS, TF2, football, or chess. People play, realize they don't like the game enough to put time into it, and quit.
It being harder to get 6 people together isn't inherent to TF2, CS might be easier, but only because of a larger player base allowing people that no one likes to group together. There's only one BAD PERSON in tf2 but if there's like 10 in CS you can just make 2 teams (awful). People obviously get burned out on other games too, otherwise CS would be dominated by people from the 90s, but clearly people quit CS, and not everyone makes it past Open/IM in it either, otherwise invite would need to be substantially larger.
Get more people at the bottom, and the burnout rate wont matter because you'll still have more people filtering through to Open and invite. Short of changing how 6s works, you aren't going to make people who disliked 6s in steel like it in open. You could worry that 50% of tf2 players quit, while only 45% of CS players quit per season, but it wouldn't matter anyway.
what if your teacher challenged you to MGE for a passing grade.
what if your teacher challenged you to MGE for a passing grade.
eeeGet more people at the bottom, and the burnout rate wont matter because you'll still have more people filtering through to Open and invite. Short of changing how 6s works, you aren't going to make people who disliked 6s in steel like it in open. You could worry that 50% of tf2 players quit, while only 45% of CS players quit per season, but it wouldn't matter anyway.
Saying that the experience for newer players doesn't matter as long as there are lots joining is a very short-sighted view to take. Players will leave after one low-level 6s season because they didn't enjoy their comp matches, even though they obviously enjoy tf2 itself if they were interested in comp to begin with. Those people will tell their friends that they shouldn't bother with comp tf2 either, and that removes a lot of uncounted people that might otherwise try and do well in 6s if their friends had a more positive review of it.
The reality is that right now, entry level NA 6s is very poorly run. That thread gives tons of reasons for this--IM/invite players on their mains in steel and silver, gold and plat teams that have no business being placed that high, the fucking quick fix being whitelisted, and much more.
About a month ago I was asked by a friend to ring for his iron 6s team. It was a bizarre experience because most of the people on the team had several seasons of experience in Open and they were all playing on alts. They were trying to play seriously because it was a match between them, the 2nd place team in Iron at the time, and the first place team, which they said was also made of sandbagger alts and that they wanted to play seriously in that specific game. I seriously doubt any actual new players on any of the teams they played against that season still want to play comp tf2.
Many people will reply to this with "ugc is shit lol just play open instead", but that really isn't a solution for these people. Despite the title, ESEA Open is not an entry-level division, simply because nobody will want to fork over $50 and lots of time to go 0-16.
I don't have exact statistics for this, but the turnover rate for ETF2L probably generates much fewer "dream graveyards" since the divisions are organized d1-d6 in a way that actually makes sense.
UGC probably won't be the solution to this, because the people who think it's a bad league simply aren't wrong. I think CEVO should introduce their Free division, which was very successful for them in CS:GO, added to TF2 as a tier below Open. Having a free-to-play league somewhere that isn't mismanaged (isn't this one of the reasons why so many of us want Valve ranked matchmaking too?) would be incredibly useful for growing the comp scene because players starting out will be more likely to actually have fun with the game.
[quote=eee]Get more people at the bottom, and the burnout rate wont matter because you'll still have more people filtering through to Open and invite. Short of changing how 6s works, you aren't going to make people who disliked 6s in steel like it in open. You could worry that 50% of tf2 players quit, while only 45% of CS players quit per season, but it wouldn't matter anyway.[/quote]
Saying that the experience for newer players doesn't matter as long as there are lots joining is a very short-sighted view to take. Players will leave after one low-level 6s season because they didn't enjoy their comp matches, even though they obviously enjoy tf2 itself if they were interested in comp to begin with. Those people will tell their friends that they shouldn't bother with comp tf2 either, and that removes a lot of uncounted people that might otherwise try and do well in 6s if their friends had a more positive review of it.
The reality is that right now, entry level NA 6s [url=http://www.ugcleague.com/forum/showthread.php?28687-Quality-control-for-UGC-6s]is very poorly run[/url]. That thread gives tons of reasons for this--IM/invite players on their mains in steel and silver, gold and plat teams that have no business being placed that high, the fucking quick fix being whitelisted, and much more.
About a month ago I was asked by a friend to ring for his iron 6s team. It was a bizarre experience because most of the people on the team had several seasons of experience in Open and they were all playing on alts. They were trying to play seriously because it was a match between them, the 2nd place team in Iron at the time, and the first place team, which they said was also made of sandbagger alts and that they wanted to play seriously in that specific game. I seriously doubt any actual new players on any of the teams they played against that season still want to play comp tf2.
Many people will reply to this with "ugc is shit lol just play open instead", but that really isn't a solution for these people. Despite the title, ESEA Open is [i]not[/i] an entry-level division, simply because nobody will want to fork over $50 and lots of time to go 0-16.
I don't have exact statistics for this, but the turnover rate for ETF2L probably generates much fewer "dream graveyards" since the divisions are organized d1-d6 in a way that actually makes sense.
UGC probably won't be the solution to this, because the people who think it's a bad league simply aren't wrong. I think CEVO should introduce their Free division, which was very successful for them in CS:GO, added to TF2 as a tier below Open. Having a free-to-play league somewhere that isn't mismanaged (isn't this one of the reasons why so many of us want Valve ranked matchmaking too?) would be incredibly useful for growing the comp scene because players starting out will be more likely to actually have fun with the game.
I did agree with the points made in that UGC thread you linked about needing a better free 6s league for people to play in. If CEVO wanted to take that up, it could be a good excuse for them to get players into their league, since that is something that they are needing.
In terms of UGC specifically, I think there are a lot of problems with the league that are hardly, if ever, going to be addressed. As much as UGC has done to support TF2, the problems that they have as a league often serve as a roadblock for the community to grow bigger, especially a problem for NA Highlander, because UGC is its hub.
I think one big step, particularly for NA TF2, is going to be moving away from UGC. We need a place that is going to welcome people rather than scare them away with varying poor decisions and management. For a new league, I'd want to see a structured mentorship program, and a plan for easing players into the competitive scene.
I did agree with the points made in that UGC thread you linked about needing a better free 6s league for people to play in. If CEVO wanted to take that up, it could be a good excuse for them to get players into their league, since that is something that they are needing.
In terms of UGC specifically, I think there are a lot of problems with the league that are hardly, if ever, going to be addressed. As much as UGC has done to support TF2, the problems that they have as a league often serve as a roadblock for the community to grow bigger, especially a problem for NA Highlander, because UGC is its hub.
I think one big step, particularly for NA TF2, is going to be moving away from UGC. We need a place that is going to welcome people rather than scare them away with varying poor decisions and management. For a new league, I'd want to see a structured mentorship program, and a plan for easing players into the competitive scene.
HidiI think one big step, particularly for NA TF2, is going to be moving away from UGC. We need a place that is going to welcome people rather than scare them away with varying poor decisions and management. For a new league, I'd want to see a structured mentorship program, and a plan for easing players into the competitive scene.
Something is needed, to be sure. I don't see how CEVO or ESEA would cater to this if they wanted to, though. It's hard enough to fill in the paid teams now, imagine if there was a non-shit free option for teams.
[quote=Hidi]I think one big step, particularly for NA TF2, is going to be moving away from UGC. We need a place that is going to welcome people rather than scare them away with varying poor decisions and management. For a new league, I'd want to see a structured mentorship program, and a plan for easing players into the competitive scene.[/quote]
Something is needed, to be sure. I don't see how CEVO or ESEA would cater to this if they wanted to, though. It's hard enough to fill in the paid teams now, imagine if there was a non-shit free option for teams.
UGC isn't shit, the admins are understaffed to deal with how overwhelmingly shit the community is. I'm not saying most people suck, but enough people suck that 1/17 or 1/11 people in any center (and plenty of scrims/matches) leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I'm sure 90% of an admins job in low level leagues is selling disputes about silly things like pausing for a second too long, or a team trying to deny a ringer after they already lost.
UGC isn't shit, the admins are understaffed to deal with how overwhelmingly shit the community is. I'm not saying most people suck, but enough people suck that 1/17 or 1/11 people in any center (and plenty of scrims/matches) leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I'm sure 90% of an admins job in low level leagues is selling disputes about silly things like pausing for a second too long, or a team trying to deny a ringer after they already lost.
MarxistYou'll also find a similar graveyard in IM. Just leaf through some IM rosters, or low invite, and then look at how many of those players are still playing 1-2 seasons later - you'll find that the answer is very few. It's a structural problem rather than a monetary one. Folks start losing, can't figure out why, become frustrated, and quit.
nono, low invite players leave because they realize holllllllllllllllllly shit this game is super fucking terrible and stacked at the top levels.
[quote=Marxist]You'll also find a similar graveyard in IM. Just leaf through some IM rosters, or low invite, and then look at how many of those players are still playing 1-2 seasons later - you'll find that the answer is very few. It's a structural problem rather than a monetary one. Folks start losing, can't figure out why, become frustrated, and quit.[/quote]
nono, low invite players leave because they realize holllllllllllllllllly shit this game is super fucking terrible and stacked at the top levels.
MarxistFolks start losing, can't figure out why, become frustrated, and quit.
Or they realize what it takes to improve to the next level (namely a whole lot of DM practice) then just find its not worth it.
Not to say what makes a top player is great aim, but its definitely a pre-requisite.
[quote=Marxist]Folks start losing, can't figure out why, become frustrated, and quit.[/quote]
Or they realize what it takes to improve to the next level (namely a whole lot of DM practice) then just find its not worth it.
Not to say what makes a top player is great aim, but its definitely a pre-requisite.
@ marma, in other words, you lose, can't figure out why, come up with a bad excuse like "oh it's stacked" and leave lol. Maybe I'm just too egotistical.
@radman, people really ought to be more interested in being leaders and building teams. I mean this is live footage of a multiple time ESEA LAN champion pocket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsYMUpW07s0 (it also takes up a lot less time)).
Good aim helps, but having a crew that you like playing with, and will consistently improve with, is way more important. In the annals of Tf2 there have been many a bad-aimer who has found success by teamwork, using their thinky-bits, et al.
As far as UGC goes - the primary work load when I was an admin was scheduling. Scheduling TONS of TF2, and also de-listing dead teams, took *forever*. That's part of the reason I left because I just didn't have the time to spend a few hours every week messing around making a schedule and deactivating teams. I think I only dealt with 1-2 cheating accusations which were all completely bogus. My all time favorite, was somebody submitted a hackusation against a guy that played sniper for an entire GPIT, who also went 4/16 lol. So that was really actually pretty easy to deal with over all.
@ marma, in other words, you lose, can't figure out why, come up with a bad excuse like "oh it's stacked" and leave lol. Maybe I'm just too egotistical.
@radman, people really ought to be more interested in being leaders and building teams. I mean this is live footage of a multiple time ESEA LAN champion pocket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsYMUpW07s0 (it also takes up a lot less time)).
Good aim helps, but having a crew that you like playing with, and will consistently improve with, is way more important. In the annals of Tf2 there have been many a bad-aimer who has found success by teamwork, using their thinky-bits, et al.
As far as UGC goes - the primary work load when I was an admin was scheduling. Scheduling TONS of TF2, and also de-listing dead teams, took *forever*. That's part of the reason I left because I just didn't have the time to spend a few hours every week messing around making a schedule and deactivating teams. I think I only dealt with 1-2 cheating accusations which were all completely bogus. My all time favorite, was somebody submitted a hackusation against a guy that played sniper for an entire GPIT, who also went 4/16 lol. So that was really actually pretty easy to deal with over all.
Marxist@ marma, in other words, you lose, can't figure out why, come up with a bad excuse like "oh it's stacked" and leave lol. Maybe I'm just too egotistical.
It's more 'damn the top invite teams are good, but there's actually no value in putting in the amount of time and practice it would take to beat them'
[quote=Marxist]@ marma, in other words, you lose, can't figure out why, come up with a bad excuse like "oh it's stacked" and leave lol. Maybe I'm just too egotistical.[/quote]
It's more 'damn the top invite teams are good, but there's actually no value in putting in the amount of time and practice it would take to beat them'
really agree with flame and marma here
really agree with flame and marma here
its great seeing new blood in this game but to echo what marm and flame is saying i don't think these new players have any idea how good the top of invite actually is and how much of a grind it takes to play with them. streams don't do any justice to the skill level at all.
you have the twitch crowd that criticize players and just stroke stats all day when they barely play the game and have zero league experience but some new players aren't even that far off from that mindset. until you hop into the same server with players like banny you don't have a clue of how good they actually are
its great seeing new blood in this game but to echo what marm and flame is saying i don't think these new players have any idea how good the top of invite actually is and how much of a grind it takes to play with them. streams don't do any justice to the skill level at all.
you have the twitch crowd that criticize players and just stroke stats all day when they barely play the game and have zero league experience but some new players aren't even that far off from that mindset. until you hop into the same server with players like banny you don't have a clue of how good they actually are
flameIt's more 'damn the top invite teams are good, but there's actually no value in putting in the amount of time and practice it would take to beat them'
This is an important point.
Typically, elite sports leagues have salary/roster churn built in that forces teams to keep developing and taking risks.
No one's going to pay up big money to create a dream team to beat Froyo, or for some folks to defect from Froyo and play for other teams with LAN drams.
Age/injury in physical team sports mean the very best players decline and make opportunities for new talent to rise to the top. It's going to be many years before age takes a toll on anyone's skill in TF2. So, it's basically up to them losing interest in playing as much or in playing together for them to decline, making it really hard to exceed them for any teams that aren't there yet.
With no payoff besides the acclaim of this community and pleasing yourselves, why not just cycle out through teams in high open/IM with your friends and have a good time?
[quote=flame]
It's more 'damn the top invite teams are good, but there's actually no value in putting in the amount of time and practice it would take to beat them'[/quote]
This is an important point.
Typically, elite sports leagues have salary/roster churn built in that forces teams to keep developing and taking risks.
No one's going to pay up big money to create a dream team to beat Froyo, or for some folks to defect from Froyo and play for other teams with LAN drams.
Age/injury in physical team sports mean the very best players decline and make opportunities for new talent to rise to the top. It's going to be many years before age takes a toll on anyone's skill in TF2. So, it's basically up to them losing interest in playing as much or in playing together for them to decline, making it really hard to exceed them for any teams that aren't there yet.
With no payoff besides the acclaim of this community and pleasing yourselves, why not just cycle out through teams in high open/IM with your friends and have a good time?
In my experience, there are players in open who are technically better than some IM/Invite players that I've seen.
By technical I mean things like raw aim, rocket jumping, etc. It's because some new folks grind MGE/Jump maps super hard. The thing lacking is a basic understanding of the game and how to function on a team. It's as simple as that. Your older players have a wealth of experience to call on in any situation, and even if they don't grind super-hard everyday, and thus may be a bit rustier than the aforementioned ultra-trier, they'll still win out easily because they know how to handle situations in the game. I haven't played a combat class in *ages* despite my multiple thousands of hours, and it would be entirely possible for me to find somebody who is *far* superior to me who would still lose out due to inexperience in the right scenarios.
The very *point* of being competitive is to try no matter what. I'm just not built to admit that something is impossible lol. The primary thing stopping me from playing is my age - I just don't connect very easily with most (young) players, and I end up feeling like I'm wasting my time. I've tried playing "just for fun" and that lasts for about 4-5 minutes lol.
In my experience, there are players in open who are technically better than some IM/Invite players that I've seen.
By technical I mean things like raw aim, rocket jumping, etc. It's because some new folks grind MGE/Jump maps super hard. The thing lacking is a basic understanding of the game and how to function on a team. It's as simple as that. Your older players have a wealth of experience to call on in any situation, and even if they don't grind super-hard everyday, and thus may be a bit rustier than the aforementioned ultra-trier, they'll still win out easily because they know how to handle situations in the game. I haven't played a combat class in *ages* despite my multiple thousands of hours, and it would be entirely possible for me to find somebody who is *far* superior to me who would still lose out due to inexperience in the right scenarios.
The very *point* of being competitive is to try no matter what. I'm just not built to admit that something is impossible lol. The primary thing stopping me from playing is my age - I just don't connect very easily with most (young) players, and I end up feeling like I'm wasting my time. I've tried playing "just for fun" and that lasts for about 4-5 minutes lol.