http://strawpoll.me/5172628/
The Original vs Rocket Launcher thread back there kind of reminded me of a thread I wanted to make, and it was about placebo. Over the past couple of days, I've really been wondering how people take their feelings of placebo. I usually do take my feelings of placebo into account when I make decisions in TF2. For me, these feelings of placebo include:
1. The original makes me feel disoriented
2. I can't hit things with the original.
3. Raw Input makes my aim feel different vs Windows 10 + MarkC Mousefix (http://donewmouseaccel.blogspot.com/2010/03/markc-windows-7-mouse-acceleration-fix.html)
NOTE: I have heard that there is some evidence pointing to the fact that Valve's raw input has unavoidable smoothing, this one may actually not be placebo.
4. Toggling my viewmodels on and off changes my scout gameplay
5. m0re's config feels a lot smoother to me than chris/comanglia's.
6. Placing my forearm on the edge of the table and keeping my arm straight gives me better reaction time and higher APM than resting my palm on a palmrest/the table.
7. Claw grip gives me way faster reaction times
8. The Null-Void Movement Cancel script when used in a certain way is a game-changer for scout. The movement patterns I create with this allow me to play on-par with and sometimes even beat scouts in DM and MGE gamemodes with hundreds of hours more than me, despite only having 30 Hours on scout.
As you can see, I actually base a lot of things off of 'placebo'. About none of these are proven to make any difference at all, but I perceive a difference myself and think its worth doing it for the feeling.
I was just wondering what the personal relations actual good players have had with placebo, and what they think of it.
Most of anything that's unproven to make a difference counts as placebo in my book.
EDIT: Meant to post this in general discussion. fml.
http://strawpoll.me/5172628/
The Original vs Rocket Launcher thread back there kind of reminded me of a thread I wanted to make, and it was about placebo. Over the past couple of days, I've really been wondering how people take their feelings of placebo. I usually do take my feelings of placebo into account when I make decisions in TF2. For me, these feelings of placebo include:
[list]
1. The original makes me feel disoriented
2. I can't hit things with the original.
3. Raw Input makes my aim feel different vs Windows 10 + MarkC Mousefix (http://donewmouseaccel.blogspot.com/2010/03/markc-windows-7-mouse-acceleration-fix.html)
NOTE: I have heard that there is some evidence pointing to the fact that Valve's raw input has unavoidable smoothing, this one may actually not be placebo.
4. Toggling my viewmodels on and off changes my scout gameplay
5. m0re's config feels a lot smoother to me than chris/comanglia's.
6. Placing my forearm on the edge of the table and keeping my arm straight gives me better reaction time and higher APM than resting my palm on a palmrest/the table.
7. Claw grip gives me way faster reaction times
8. The Null-Void Movement Cancel script when used in a certain way is a game-changer for scout. The movement patterns I create with this allow me to play on-par with and sometimes even beat scouts in DM and MGE gamemodes with hundreds of hours more than me, despite only having 30 Hours on scout.
[/list]
As you can see, I actually base a lot of things off of 'placebo'. About none of these are proven to make any difference at all, but I perceive a difference myself and think its worth doing it for the feeling.
I was just wondering what the personal relations actual good players have had with placebo, and what they think of it.
Most of anything that's unproven to make a difference counts as placebo in my book.
EDIT: Meant to post this in general discussion. fml.
You linked the results of the strawpoll, not the strawpoll itself. Just saying.
You linked the results of the strawpoll, not the strawpoll itself. Just saying.
JarateKingYou linked the results of the strawpoll, not the strawpoll itself. Just saying.
rip my hubris.
[quote=JarateKing]You linked the results of the strawpoll, not the strawpoll itself. Just saying.[/quote]
rip my hubris.
http://strawpoll.me/5172628]
ninja'd
Really an interesting question. Can they really be called placebo if you know that they are not doing anything? I thought a placebo had to have the guise of being an actual effective product/method. That said, I don't think anything I do is placebo in tf2. If it's not something that's proven it's not worth my time.
Really an interesting question. Can they really be called placebo if you[i] know[/i] that they are not doing anything? I thought a placebo had to have the guise of being an actual effective product/method. That said, I don't think anything I do is placebo in tf2. If it's not something that's proven it's not worth my time.
i cant ctap as well with the original
i cant ctap as well with the original
"1. The original makes me feel disoriented"
Not really placebo now that I think about it, the rockets come from a different origin
"2. I can't hit things with the original."
Not really placebo now that I think about it, the rockets come from a different origin so aiming wouldn't be "exactly the same"
"3. Raw Input makes me aim feel different vs Windows 10 + MarkC Mousefix (http://donewmouseaccel.blogspot.com/2010/03/markc-windows-7-mouse-acceleration-fix.html)
NOTE: I have heard that there is some evidence pointing to the fact that Valve's raw input has unavoidable smoothing, this one may actually not be placebo."
Raw Input between 7 / 8 / 10 isn't different, so Placebo. Your Note is true though.
"4. Toggling my viewmodels on and off changes my scout gameplay"
Somewhat placebo, turning them off allows you to see more, having them on brings your eyes toward a point to focus (usually). So personal preference, but not placebo.
"5. m0re's config feels a lot smoother to me than chris/comanglia's."
Might be placebo (their's so many things going on here that it's really hard to say)
"6. Placing my forearm on the edge of the table and keeping my arm straight gives me better reaction time and higher APM than resting my palm on a palmrest/the table."
This has a lot more to do with sensitivity settings. People with low sens really shouldn't have a constant palm rest, also it's bad on your wrist if you have a palm rest.
"7. Claw grip gives me way faster reaction times"
Depends on "Way faster" 5-10ms sure (it easier to reach the actuation force necessary from a claw grip than from a palm grip), but much more than that is definitely placebo.
"8. The Null-Void Movement Cancel script when used in a certain way is a game-changer for scout. The movement patterns I create with this allow me to play on-par with and sometimes even beat scouts in DM and MGE gamemodes with hundreds of hours more than me, despite only having 30 Hours on scout."
Placebo, honestly I think the null-void movement scrips actually makes scout slightly more linear. You completely loose the ability to stop instantly, which can be a bad thing.
"1. The original makes me feel disoriented"
Not really placebo now that I think about it, the rockets come from a different origin
"2. I can't hit things with the original."
Not really placebo now that I think about it, the rockets come from a different origin so aiming wouldn't be "exactly the same"
"3. Raw Input makes me aim feel different vs Windows 10 + MarkC Mousefix (http://donewmouseaccel.blogspot.com/2010/03/markc-windows-7-mouse-acceleration-fix.html)
NOTE: I have heard that there is some evidence pointing to the fact that Valve's raw input has unavoidable smoothing, this one may actually not be placebo."
Raw Input between 7 / 8 / 10 isn't different, so Placebo. Your Note is true though.
"4. Toggling my viewmodels on and off changes my scout gameplay"
Somewhat placebo, turning them off allows you to see more, having them on brings your eyes toward a point to focus (usually). So personal preference, but not placebo.
"5. m0re's config feels a lot smoother to me than chris/comanglia's."
Might be placebo (their's so many things going on here that it's really hard to say)
"6. Placing my forearm on the edge of the table and keeping my arm straight gives me better reaction time and higher APM than resting my palm on a palmrest/the table."
This has a lot more to do with sensitivity settings. People with low sens really shouldn't have a constant palm rest, also it's bad on your wrist if you have a palm rest.
"7. Claw grip gives me way faster reaction times"
Depends on "Way faster" 5-10ms sure (it easier to reach the actuation force necessary from a claw grip than from a palm grip), but much more than that is definitely placebo.
"8. The Null-Void Movement Cancel script when used in a certain way is a game-changer for scout. The movement patterns I create with this allow me to play on-par with and sometimes even beat scouts in DM and MGE gamemodes with hundreds of hours more than me, despite only having 30 Hours on scout."
Placebo, honestly I think the null-void movement scrips actually makes scout slightly more linear. You completely loose the ability to stop instantly, which can be a bad thing.
if a placebo is bad then it's a nocebo
if a placebo is bad then it's a nocebo
janedoei cant ctap as well with the original
If you're talking about horizontal ctap, then that actually isn't placebo. Since the rocket launcher is to the right, you can move your aim 90 Degrees and be aiming behind you using the rocket launcher, which makes horizontal ctap easier vs the original, where you have to move 180 to properly shoot behind you.
[quote=janedoe]i cant ctap as well with the original[/quote]
If you're talking about horizontal ctap, then that actually isn't placebo. Since the rocket launcher is to the right, you can move your aim 90 Degrees and be aiming behind you using the rocket launcher, which makes horizontal ctap easier vs the original, where you have to move 180 to properly shoot behind you.
the markC fix does does absolutely nothing if you have EPP disabled in windows.
some (very old) games force EPP on, even if you have unchecked the box in mouse options. what markC fix does is change EPP to be linear, so when it gets forced on by the game, you won't have any acceleration (as if EPP is still off).
games like CSGO or TF2 don't force EPP on, so markC fix is totally useless for these games.
placebo.
most of your other points are totally valid and have little to do with placebo or not.
points like 6 and 7 are physical, they're not placebo. they're personal. if you'd look around at some, LAN you'll see a huge difference in how players sit on their chair. close or far away from monitor, what mice they use, how they grip.. their whole bodies are in totally different positions.
and if you say that the original makes you feel disorientated, how would that be placebo? it makes me wonder if you even know what the word means..
anyway, if you've used stock for a long time, it's not strange for the original to feel off. it's not even strange to perform worse with it.
cowmanglia already made a good point for point 4. i noticed i perform worse with viewmodels enabled because they distract me and obscure my screen. i'm sure it has a lot to do with being used to one or the other.
my grenade launcher aim goes to total shit when i enable viewmodels. for some, it's the other way around.
the markC fix does does absolutely nothing if you have EPP disabled in windows.
some (very old) games force EPP on, even if you have unchecked the box in mouse options. what markC fix does is change EPP to be linear, so when it gets forced on by the game, you won't have any acceleration (as if EPP is still off).
games like CSGO or TF2 don't force EPP on, so markC fix is totally useless for these games.
placebo.
most of your other points are totally valid and have little to do with placebo or not.
points like 6 and 7 are physical, they're not placebo. they're personal. if you'd look around at some, LAN you'll see a huge difference in how players sit on their chair. close or far away from monitor, what mice they use, how they grip.. their whole bodies are in totally different positions.
and if you say that the original makes you feel disorientated, how would that be placebo? it makes me wonder if you even know what the word means..
anyway, if you've used stock for a long time, it's not strange for the original to feel off. it's not even strange to perform worse with it.
cowmanglia already made a good point for point 4. i noticed i perform worse with viewmodels enabled because they distract me and obscure my screen. i'm sure it has a lot to do with being used to one or the other.
my grenade launcher aim goes to total shit when i enable viewmodels. for some, it's the other way around.
Some real placebos
1. I aim better with the AWPerhand than I do with the sniper rifle (or vice versa) can be used with any weapons that are identical (Original and Rocket Launcher do not count)
2. Hats make me better. (or worse) Note: some hats make you stand out, or make you head look weird to a sniper though
3. I do better with Custom HUD 1 than Custom HUD 2 (true for the majority of HUDs assuming they don't do much to block sight)
4. I do better as X color on Viaduct / any other mirror map.
Some real placebos
1. I aim better with the AWPerhand than I do with the sniper rifle (or vice versa) can be used with any weapons that are identical (Original and Rocket Launcher do not count)
2. Hats make me better. (or worse) Note: some hats make you stand out, or make you head look weird to a sniper though
3. I do better with Custom HUD 1 than Custom HUD 2 (true for the majority of HUDs assuming they don't do much to block sight)
4. I do better as X color on Viaduct / any other mirror map.
in general you could probably make a case that blue team has a decent advantage on most maps due to the fact most skyboxes and background textures are white/blue and blue casts the darker shadow in low lighting areas making red easier to aim at.
in general you could probably make a case that blue team has a decent advantage on most maps due to the fact most skyboxes and background textures are white/blue and blue casts the darker shadow in low lighting areas making red easier to aim at.
flamein general you could probably make a case that blue team has a decent advantage on most maps due to the fact most skyboxes and background textures are white/blue and blue casts the darker shadow in low lighting areas making red easier to aim at.
You could also make the case that playing on Red makes blue players more likely to play overly aggressive, or that red players might play to passively against Blue players.
[quote=flame]in general you could probably make a case that blue team has a decent advantage on most maps due to the fact most skyboxes and background textures are white/blue and blue casts the darker shadow in low lighting areas making red easier to aim at.[/quote]
You could also make the case that playing on Red makes blue players more likely to play overly aggressive, or that red players might play to passively against Blue players.
that's true as well, but the mental consequences and physical consequences aren't really comparable.
it's time to get a cl_enemy_teamcolor "xx xx xx" command
that's true as well, but the mental consequences and physical consequences aren't really comparable.
it's time to get a cl_enemy_teamcolor "xx xx xx" command
Bucakethe markC fix does does absolutely nothing if you have EPP disabled in windows.
some (very old) games force EPP on, even if you have unchecked the box in mouse options. what markC fix does is change EPP to be linear, so when it gets forced on by the game, you won't have any acceleration (as if EPP is still off).
another placebo, it made it feel more smooth.
Also, I never said I perform BETTER with viewmodels off, because I don't. I actually think I perform DIFFERENT, which is why I toggle viewmodels when I'm dying alot/losing on scout.
To me, this thread still has a valid point, even if lots of the things are not placebo. The point was to see if people go solely on numbers, or also judge based on their feels. There really shouldn't be a debate on whether x is placebo, because its just a simple poll to see how the people on this forum think.
Judging by your posts, you along with Comanglia seem to be people who only rely on numbers. Am I wrong?
[quote=Bucake]the markC fix does does absolutely nothing if you have EPP disabled in windows.
some (very old) games force EPP on, even if you have unchecked the box in mouse options. what markC fix does is change EPP to be linear, so when it gets forced on by the game, you won't have any acceleration (as if EPP is still off).[/quote]
another placebo, it made it feel more smooth.
Also, I never said I perform BETTER with viewmodels off, because I don't. I actually think I perform DIFFERENT, which is why I toggle viewmodels when I'm dying alot/losing on scout.
To me, this thread still has a valid point, even if lots of the things are not placebo. The point was to see if people go solely on numbers, or also judge based on their feels. There really shouldn't be a debate on whether x is placebo, because its just a simple poll to see how the people on this forum think.
Judging by your posts, you along with Comanglia seem to be people who only rely on numbers. Am I wrong?
ComangliaSome "real" placebos
4. I do better as X color on Viaduct / any other mirror map.
not a placebo at all
[quote=Comanglia]Some "real" placebos
4. I do better as X color on Viaduct / any other mirror map.[/quote]
not a placebo at all
I sometimes switch between stock and the original because I miss how the other one feels/sounds after using one for a while and I end up aiming better, probably because I start concentrating more on my aim since I have to make the adjustment on where my rockets are shooting from.
I sometimes switch between stock and the original because I miss how the other one feels/sounds after using one for a while and I end up aiming better, probably because I start concentrating more on my aim since I have to make the adjustment on where my rockets are shooting from.
Half the things you've described aren't even placebo.
Ex: If you use no viewmodels for 3k hours and suddently turn viewmodels on you're gonna have a hard time aiming because you are used to aim with the crosshair not with the viewmodel + crosshair, it's not placebo, your hand eyes coordination will suffer because your eyes will have trouble focusing as effectively as they did to the crosshair only
Claw grip interacts with your muscles differently than palm grip so your aim / reaction times might feel different because its all about muscle memory.
etc, etc..
Half the things you've described aren't even placebo.
Ex: If you use no viewmodels for 3k hours and suddently turn viewmodels on you're gonna have a hard time aiming because you are used to aim with the crosshair not with the viewmodel + crosshair, it's not placebo, your hand eyes coordination will suffer because your eyes will have trouble focusing as effectively as they did to the crosshair only
Claw grip interacts with your muscles differently than palm grip so your aim / reaction times might feel different because its all about muscle memory.
etc, etc..
Comangliaflamein general you could probably make a case that blue team has a decent advantage on most maps due to the fact most skyboxes and background textures are white/blue and blue casts the darker shadow in low lighting areas making red easier to aim at.
You could also make the case that playing on Red makes blue players more likely to play overly aggressive, or that red players might play to passively against Blue players.
you could contend that one team on a mirror map has better spam angles pending how it was mirrored; like it's not really a thing on badlands, but on viaduct the red team has a better cliff given that projectiles are coming from right hand side and conversely blue used to be better on that map back when people held where we now have a tunnel
[quote=Comanglia][quote=flame]in general you could probably make a case that blue team has a decent advantage on most maps due to the fact most skyboxes and background textures are white/blue and blue casts the darker shadow in low lighting areas making red easier to aim at.[/quote]
You could also make the case that playing on Red makes blue players more likely to play overly aggressive, or that red players might play to passively against Blue players.[/quote]
you could contend that one team on a mirror map has better spam angles pending how it was mirrored; like it's not really a thing on badlands, but on viaduct the red team has a better cliff given that projectiles are coming from right hand side and conversely blue used to be better on that map back when people held where we now have a tunnel
DanceNumberReally an interesting question. Can they really be called placebo if you know that they are not doing anything? I thought a placebo had to have the guise of being an actual effective product/method. That said, I don't think anything I do is placebo in tf2. If it's not something that's proven it's not worth my time.
No. Placebos still have an effect, even when you know. http://healthland.time.com/2010/12/27/placebos-work-even-if-you-know-theyre-fake-but-how/
[quote=DanceNumber]Really an interesting question. Can they really be called placebo if you[i] know[/i] that they are not doing anything? I thought a placebo had to have the guise of being an actual effective product/method. That said, I don't think anything I do is placebo in tf2. If it's not something that's proven it's not worth my time.[/quote]
No. Placebos still have an effect, even when you know. http://healthland.time.com/2010/12/27/placebos-work-even-if-you-know-theyre-fake-but-how/
I didn't know that, thanks #s. I thought of one more thing that effects me, the 'trail' on the machina shot makes me aim worse with it. Which is absurd because it occurs after the aim + shoot part of aiming.
I didn't know that, thanks #s. I thought of one more thing that effects me, the 'trail' on the machina shot makes me aim worse with it. Which is absurd because it occurs after the aim + shoot part of aiming.
I feel like placebo and preference are being used interchangably in this thread.
4812622DanceNumberReally an interesting question. Can they really be called placebo if you know that they are not doing anything? I thought a placebo had to have the guise of being an actual effective product/method. That said, I don't think anything I do is placebo in tf2. If it's not something that's proven it's not worth my time.
No. Placebos still have an effect, even when you know. http://healthland.time.com/2010/12/27/placebos-work-even-if-you-know-theyre-fake-but-how/
http://i.imgur.com/hqgzxwn.png
I think you just sourced an article written by Weird Al
I feel like placebo and preference are being used interchangably in this thread.
[quote=4812622][quote=DanceNumber]Really an interesting question. Can they really be called placebo if you[i] know[/i] that they are not doing anything? I thought a placebo had to have the guise of being an actual effective product/method. That said, I don't think anything I do is placebo in tf2. If it's not something that's proven it's not worth my time.[/quote]
No. Placebos still have an effect, even when you know. http://healthland.time.com/2010/12/27/placebos-work-even-if-you-know-theyre-fake-but-how/[/quote]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/hqgzxwn.png[/img]
I think you just sourced an article written by Weird Al
I just linked the first thing I saw in google, I read it in my psych textbook
I just linked the first thing I saw in google, I read it in my psych textbook
the placebo effect will only work if you know it's a placebo if you believe that the placebo effect works if you know it's a placebo
the placebo effect will only work if you know it's a placebo if you believe that the placebo effect works if you know it's a placebo
perfect_numberthe placebo effect will only work if you know it's a placebo if you believe that the placebo effect works if you know it's a placebo
i'm sorry what
[quote=perfect_number]the placebo effect will only work if you know it's a placebo if you believe that the placebo effect works if you know it's a placebo[/quote]
i'm sorry what
I would honestly argue almost none of these are placebos. Rocket launcher preference is not a placebo, you're simply just more used to one or you prefer one origin to the other. Scout viewmodels being off allows your eyes to concentrate solely on the crosshair, without a gun model moving around in your way. Hand position and mouse shape absolutely affect reaction times as your muscles in fingers can trigger the mouse click much faster if they're already pointed down, ready to click.
If you could interchangeably say one is better than the other upon switching to it (different rocket launchers, scout viewmodel on/off), then I could maybe argue it's a placebo. Even then, it's more likely that you're just paying more attention to the game or you find it more fun since there's a little change.
I would honestly argue almost none of these are placebos. Rocket launcher preference is not a placebo, you're simply just more used to one or you prefer one origin to the other. Scout viewmodels being off allows your eyes to concentrate solely on the crosshair, without a gun model moving around in your way. Hand position and mouse shape absolutely affect reaction times as your muscles in fingers can trigger the mouse click much faster if they're already pointed down, ready to click.
If you could interchangeably say one is better than the other upon switching to it (different rocket launchers, scout viewmodel on/off), then I could maybe argue it's a placebo. Even then, it's more likely that you're just paying more attention to the game or you find it more fun since there's a little change.
One of the biggest placebo's is people still playing on 4:3 because they're "used to it" it literally only has downsides and people keep using it, unless you really need it on 4:3 for fps it's dumb to still have it on
One of the biggest placebo's is people still playing on 4:3 because they're "used to it" it literally only has downsides and people keep using it, unless you really need it on 4:3 for fps it's dumb to still have it on
many people do not like the fisheye effect when using 16:9
many people do not like the fisheye effect when using 16:9
I am actually beginning to think no one knows what a placebo is
I am actually beginning to think no one knows what a placebo is
BonafideOne of the biggest placebo's is people still playing on 4:3 because they're "used to it" it literally only has downsides and people keep using it, unless you really need it on 4:3 for fps it's dumb to still have it on
While experimenting with my resolution, I've found that 4:3 keeps everything closer to the center and is easier to focus with. It honestly feels pretty nice playing with.
clckwrkI am actually beginning to think no one knows what a placebo is
This thread to me is really about Feel vs Numbers
screw placebo.
[quote=Bonafide]One of the biggest placebo's is people still playing on 4:3 because they're "used to it" it literally only has downsides and people keep using it, unless you really need it on 4:3 for fps it's dumb to still have it on[/quote]
While experimenting with my resolution, I've found that 4:3 keeps everything closer to the center and is easier to focus with. It honestly feels pretty nice playing with.
[quote=clckwrk]I am actually beginning to think no one knows what a placebo is[/quote]
This thread to me is really about Feel vs Numbers
screw placebo.