http://strawpoll.me/5968344

process is gonna win
u kno wat it is

lunchbox is hardly a flank. yard isn't really a flank, either. it's "entertaining" in the sense that things happen quickly (like an instagibbed roamer or scout), but that's just because it's an enclosed space that half the time can go either way. maybe this is a spectator point of view, but from a player point of view I could never understand how in a million years you could value lunchbox on granary over any other flank in the game

your movement points are decent, we just value different things for "movement."

not really sure why you think i'm saying it's obsolete because it's old? I mean, old doesn't always = obsolete, but its age does not help it. badlands is also old, but it's valve's happy little accident. maps like process, snakewater, gully, etc have had many, many, many beta's and release candidates to allow for different meta's of play to influence the way the map is formed. considering these maps were not made in the stone age (and were actually influenced greatly by 6s play), the way the game is played is relatively similar (huge influence on jumping, the ability to pressure chokes well, great flanks for roamers and scouts, and middles that allow slightly more visibility for medics). granary was not made, first of all, for 6s, and not made in the image of the way the game is actually played.

and the point that other games don't do it just isn't an argument? dunno. other games also don't do half the things the tf2 community does so really it's pointless to even mention

you guys can continue to find reasons and convince (i guess?) people to change their minds on the map but i feel like that's a waste of time when a new map can be made that will be better and can replace it. obviously the map is playable. you can spawn and use your peripherals to interact with the environment. do i think it's fun to play? not really. do i think it suits the way other maps are played? not really. do a lot of people tend to agree? sure. usually it's a pretty popular opinion until one of these threads pop up as if we're not giving granary the respect it deserves and people change their minds for 60 or so posts and then people still never play it in scrims or pugs. dunno what else tell you. it's very opinionated (some people find granary fun), but it's pretty consistently disliked and I don't think strong-arming some kind of revolution to play granary more is a representative way to count the map's merits

im not sure how true that part is when people have been trying to make better maps for a while and they never seem to be worth anyone's time

sunshine?

sunshine didn't replace granary?

bad process?

process
snakewater
sunshine is gaining traction

just because people haven't made recent processes doesn't mean the idea is flawed

i like granary just for the lunchbox roamer 1v1s if nothing else

We just need Scorpio to make another map and then we will all be saved

the real question
http://strawpoll.me/5968453

edit: while i enjoy metalworks, it'd be my least favourite of those listed

Fuck gullywash

i'd rather play sunshine and metalworks than badlands in pugs

i like badlands in matches and scrims but in pugs it's a backcap mess

that's one map within the past two years. the actual pace of people accepting new maps is incredibly slow, and given how even phi has talked about being discouraged from making new competitive maps, I don't think that's the mapmakers' fault

ya badlands is straight up the worst pug map

If it's worth anything, I'm writing a huge encompassing article (to be hosted in its own site, nonetheless) about making 5cp maps for competitive... I'm going to pitch it to the mapping community and see what happens.

I'm also working on an as-of-yet-unreleased new 5cp map that I hope to release and test heavily with people here.

It isn't necessarily what the thread is about, but I thought I'd just put the word in. If anyone wants to help peer edit the article once I write the first draft, hit me up. I want to try to get mapmakers interested in competitive again (and actually making better maps than those that have came up in recent past). Sunshine is old and I've improved a lot since then, I haven't been as active as I would like but I plan to change that.

man i've always liked granary

Would people be interested in playing new maps in pugme from time to time? I think it would be nice to try.

I do, its because mappers are bad at taking feedback and filtering good feedback from bad feedback. They shelter their maps behind doors/with just other mappers until it is a major pain in the ass to change geometry, then come here and get shit on by the Geneva Convention breaking levels of weapons grade autism interspersed with legitimate feedback and take none of it, quit, or just release their map and vow never to return to the hated "competitive community".

It is the same as any artistic medium, the critics are there because they believe in you and want to see your map get better so we can play on it. If it was really just a shit tier fuckfest every step of the way, we just wouldn't play or comment on it.

I played on wildfire (Phi's new map) the other night and it has a LOT of potential, but it also needs a lot of work. If she posted it here, I am positive that she would get tons of great advice (along with the trolls and shit heads), but its in like beta2, so it feels off to suggest that entire flanks be removed or chokes be reworked this late in the cycle.

In order to get a really good map, we need a dedicated mapper to come to us with something that they are okay working over several times, combing through it and taking feedback on the face every step of the way.

To be fair, drshdwpuppet, wildlife wasn't intended as a comp map and I think people were only playing it because they have nothing else to play. I pushed it to beta because I didn't intend to bring it to comp, it was mostly detail practice for me.

That being said, mapmakers are definitely at least partially at fault for not bringing their maps here earlier - what I did with sunshine was test it constantly in competitive environments since the /very first alpha/. It ended up pretty decent, I think. Mappers need to realize that there are gunna be trolls. Of course you're going to get people shittalking your map, it's to be expected. But there's a huge amount of incredible feedback to take in, and so much of it requires the mapmaker to be dedicated to heavily changing their map.

If mappers want to get good comp maps, more people (including the mapmaker themself) need to dedicate themselves to the full iteration process. Which, coincidentally, is what I plan to do with the map I'm going to release alongside my 5cp article.

pugme is probably the best place to test new maps, but theres no incentive for people not to just rtv to snake/process/gully/blands

if we want a diverse map pool, people have to be willing to go out of their comfort zone and play new maps from time to time

(note: idk you personally, you're likely far better at criticizing, however:)
many of the "critics" in comp actively wish not to play them, every step of the way. perhaps not here, but absolutely in areas like UGC, because unlike item creators that get paid easily for one hundredth of the effort, there are an unreasonable amount of people that just expect map makers to deal with utter misery for the sake of charity

when you think ppl are obligated to make good maps, you get scenarios like this, wherein people greatly want to take out a map they dislike but there's nothing else to replace it. there's a drought of competitive mapping, and at the very least, I'd rather TFTV try to help up some map makers, because it's sort of an unfortunate mess

When granary pro was in its early stages of development mangachu got people from pugme to do 3 or 4 inhouses on it. So long as the servers aren't just defaulted to a new map without any word beforehand (in which case people would rtv instantly), I can see this being successful.

you guys arent going to change shit

only for this first week and then youre gonna say, now i see why we dont pug this map

considering the number of times I feel like this was discussed, it's not out of the question, but you're certainly not helping people stop from falling back down that hill

change is happening

yes we can

eu pugs all the maps, there's no rtv and people aren't little bitches about it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

change can happen just believe

One map in the game that isn't a scout haven and you kick off m8

fuk u nerd

should just make a map rotation for pug.me and then remove rtv.