try playing against powah on that map or any good sniper for that matter and you'll quickly get over it

l o g j a m

Remember: Sunshine has been updated to RC9, which is a drastic improvement upon the RC7 that ESEA played in S20. Among many layout changes is a large optimization pass. Try it out, see how it's improved.

Also: bug Killing, and make sure he knows the map's been updated. I would be terribly disappointed if Sunshine doesn't get updated to RC9 for S21.

granary_abortion/snakewater out

Definitely would like to see granary swapped out for another map, but our options are so limited as to what has been played. Maybe metalworks out as well, but still not sure what to replace it with

luc is biased towards Yukon becaus he had ricco on his team when he played it pls do not listen to him

We scrimmed a bunch of possible replacement maps vs other invite teams to try to find viable replacements:

- Yukon is fun but way too open still, snipers are more than viable, they are too good.
- Logjam has way too much going on, and its a custom map which is not good for viewers etc.
- Reckoner has a lot of potential but is in far too early of a state to be a viable replacement option.

Warmfront should be voted in and metalworks should be removed. Metalworks is just a placeholder map that we've been playing for 7 seasons that no other region has picked up, despite our years of playing it. Warmfront shares the problems metalworks has, last stalemates etc etc. (Though warmfront is yet to be really tested in todays meta, maybe that wont hold up as much.)

- Same issues as metalworks (at least in the past)
- Warmfront has one of the most interesting mids in the game.
- It's not a custom map, casual tf2 fans recognize it and understand it while spectating games on twitch etc.

It's not a massive upgrade to a boring map, this isn't going from a 4/10 map to a 10/10 map, but its certainly some kind of an upgrade to metalworks. It's more of going from a 4/10 map to a 5.5/10 map, one which is better for viewers. I'd rather do that than try to get in a random custom map or keep the same rotation.

- metalworks +warmfront

Bringing back warmfront *and* gpit would make it a categorical imperative that I find some way to play again lol.

I really dislike the way you dismiss metalworks just because it's a custom map and might not be familiar to viewers, I understand your point but it is by no means a bad thing, if we would have followed that same thought we would never have seen maps like process, snakewater and gullywash.

And on the other point you made of no other region picking the map up, I'm not gonna talk to any other region other than the one I play on, but here it was picked up, unfortunately it was replaced due to premiership players not enjoying it and wanting a change (which led to turbine and then (old)logjam, let's not talk about that dark time), and afaik other regions have done the same.

The only issue with metalworks really is that it doesn't get regular updates, I mean you've said it yourself, you've been playing this map for 7 seasons, obviously the map has gone through changes, but not enough, and now that Scorpio doesn't make maps and also has a job at another gaming company, it seems unlikely that he will unless someone actually steps up and contacts him about improvements to the map that might make it more viable.

If I were you guys, I would try contacting Scorpio as there is plenty of feedback over on the cp_metalworks feedback thread, and try getting the guy to update his map finally so it won't blow as much as you guys say it does.
I might be biased as I think Scorpio is one of the best map makers competitive tf2 has ever seen and it would be dumb not to reach out to him.

aren't maps pretty infamously difficult, if not flat-out impossible to change after being heavily artpassed?

also, idk why "this is a custom map" is an argument against a map if the result of that map being voted out is to vote in another custom map

I'd like to play gpit again. 5cp being the "main" game mode shouldn't blind us to the strategic depth of other modes.

If I saw a cs map called Grass2 and it was dust2 with grass instead of sand I would realize it's dust2

So prem players didn't enjoy it and dropped it from the pool which has been the case for years, but we should keep playing it?

How could that possibly BY NO MEANS, be a bad thing? You even said that you understand my point of it being bad for viewers so that is a bad thing lol. It's equally as bad of a thing if process came out today, difference between process and metalworks is that one of them is a very solid map and one is a very mediocre one, as proven by the fact that metalworks is on the fringes of being voted out while hardly anyone would be discussing voting out any of the 3 GOOD custom maps you mentioned. Why keep a mediocre at best custom map that has the similar disliked aspects to a non custom map that has a much better mid and is easier to watch?

edit: I wouldn't want to rely on a map maker who has hardly updated the map in 3 years since its release that you said is really busy with work to properly update a map that is already in a finished state. I'd rather replace that placeholder map with a different placeholder map that is slightly better, one that viewers understand, and then when a new really good map is released get rid of that placeholder for that really good map. I'd rather have the better placeholder in the meantime though.

The point I was trying to make was that the fact they dropped it from the pool caused worse maps to appear, since there were no other better alternatives.
You don't have to keep playing anything, if you want change and enough people vote for it then go ahead, nobody is stopping you and if you understood that from my post than I really don't know what to say.

When I said "by no means a bad thing" I was referring to the custom map part, it being bad for viewers is your opinion, and it is a valid one, I don't agree with you about warmfront being better than metalworks as it literally wasn't played in forever, but I could be wrong and this is a thread for suggestions and I'm not here to say you shouldn't suggest it.
As you were ignoring major factors about the core map itself and the way it plays but gave more attention to how it will be easier to watch on streams just because it's a pro version of a stock map.

Edit: If you think warmfront is better than metalworks, it's your opinion, the only thing I disagreed about is how you prefer a map just because it might be more familiar to viewers, as I don't think you've tested the map enough to justify it being replaced, if you would try and contact him before going to conclusions, then I would understand your point more.

If you guys like where logjam's been going with the preRC3 builds (I'm trying to make 2nd less convoluted at the moment) I can certainly have RC3 out and ready in time for the season. Should you want to go more specific into what "it's got too much going on" means, http://www.teamfortress.tv/14370/cp-logjam-5cp/?page=13 is my thread and I would love to hear any and all feedback.

Hyce

metalworks or granary are definitely the worst maps out of the pool but i dislike metalworks more because of mid so boom

out of all the replacement maps i like coalplant the most but i'm sure that's not happening

I actually like the new logjam. Needs work in a few places but I'd love to see it played. PLUS Hyce himself is listening to the people while developing the map. But I will admit that booting out metalworks (until it gets updated) for something else (maybe bring back gravelpit or even coalplant) seems to be the right thing. But in replacing it for a season, it would at least breathe some new life into the map rotation.

I think that in replacing metalworks with warmfront, logjam, or even reckoner would end up breathing some new life into the map rotation. I really love new and custom maps and I'd love to see some new ones go into action or at the very least, have a showmatch/scrim thing and have the players afterwards give their comments on this. It gives more opportunities for custom mapmakers to get their maps showcased while providing more exposure to the competitive scene

TL:DR - metalworks should get voted out but a process to get custom maps shown would be nice to see implemented in the off-season of league play

if you cut out like 10% of the length it takes to go to last from shutter on metalworks could make it better, its stupid that medics can just basically walk in spawn before you can get to him when pushing last

I'd like to see edifice at least test again. As fun as gravelpit is, there's lack of playstyle where you just turtle up B and C rather than playing the whole map. I don't know how good edifice is now but I'd want to try it out at the very least because it seems like a more refined gravelpit.

I've had some very intense and fun matches on Gravelpit and Warmfront. Would be awesome to see them back in the rotation. Another koth map wouldnt hurt either.

I dislike Metalworks, but Sunshine kinda grew on me personally.

I would like to see either warmfront, coalplant or gpit this season to replace metalworks. Just for a change

Same map pool as last season won the vote.

cp_follower !!

edit: +1 for warmfront

Since there people are looking at older maps, what about maps like freight, follower, and fastlane? Admittedly I only remember playing these back when tf2lobby was still a thing, but it would be interesting to see what other people think.

Let's just play koth_harvest

It seems like a lot of people want to play warmfront. Just wanna see the numbers.

http://strawpoll.me/6570530

Confirmed I know

viaduct needs to be updated to koth_product_rc8