Not many people know about this, but the Self-Aware Beauty Mark (the bread monster Jarate reskin) can be thrown slightly further than regular/festive Jarate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U819YrM4bUU

Isn't the first reload slower?

p sure they fixed that in a recent update

• July 28, 2016 Patch
  Adjusted the Cow Mangler 5000 reload animation to be slightly faster (now matches the default Rocket Launcher).
  
• August 29, 2016 Patch
  Fixed a bug with the Cow Mangler 5000 reload speed

so, yes, luckily that isn't a problem on the weapon anymore.

Die white lists

Amazing!

not gonna lie, this whitelist blows fat cock

I don't know if we can count on changes mid-season, but once the season ends hopefully we can have everyone get together to figure out what changes need to be made going forward.

Vitasaw may only give 19% but if you have someone spawn next to you it's basically 20% Why is it banned? Is it cause it's the danger shield of the medic but does damage?

https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/jtv_user_pictures/cmonbruh-profile_image-84cf1a6644b6e42a-600x600.png

that quality of image

https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/84608/2.0

Basically there's very few situations where the -10 hp actually matters. Most medics feel the urge to pop at less than 100 hp, not when they're at 10. 20% uber is actually really significant and makes it better than all the other melees and so it is like the danger shield in that if one med uses it the other is forced to as well.

Really the ubersaw is better for everyone. It's not stale like the vita saw, and it makes for some exciting plays every now and then.

http://puu.sh/rRUgF/a3de129189.png

dont worry bro i got you

No, vita is banned because it makes it impossible to accurately predict how long it takes for the enemy medic to get uber after spawning. That fucks with the uber-advantage mechanic, one of the best mechanics about 6s, so on the shitlist it goes.

doesnt the xbow already mess up the uber prediction mechanic

easy solution
pretend u always have a disadvantage and never push unless wipe

i hate the xbow but the other med primary weapons are so shit i would feel bad if the xbow would be worse

vita saw forces the other med to run it or be at a distinct disadvantage. kind of like arrows, but the difference is arrows speed up the game and add mechanics whereas vita saw removes uber prediction

you'll notice that any weapon that is OP but makes the game more fun is allowed IE

escape plan, boston basher, ubersaw

While I assume that this may already been widely discussed elsewhere, and my question be redundant:

OK, so it forces both Medics to run Vita-Saw...

...and? The natural question that should be asked from that is "what does this do to the game?" At face value, this just changes the game to be as if Valve had made the Medic at 140 HP, and made Ubers charge faster. [other than the first Uber, or any Uber where you do not die in-between. Only the second one actually yields an imbalance of sort in Uber prediction--and it isn't negligible, obviously, but its negligibility doesn't have to be a premise anyway to make my question valid.]

So is it not conceivable that the modifications that the Vita-Saw makes to 6s could actually be beneficial to the format? Has it at least been tried before concluding that, in some way, it breaks what makes 6s what it is currently?

[also, any actual effective use of the Ubersaw ever does the exact same thing to the Uber relationship, but in a much more volatile way than the Vita-Saw, since the Vita-Saw's effect is consistent, at least. Sure, it might not be very common, but why even allow the weapon if "don't mess with the Uber prediction mechanic" is one of our banning axioms?]

If your team feeds a saw they can call that it happened

If the other team's medic has the vitasaw equipped you might never even know

But the argument made is that the disadvantage is so severe to the point where you'd be forced to run it practically constantly in a Vita-Saw-legal environment.

At that point, you can assume that the enemy Medic was running Vita-Saw. If he was not, and your team is in some way punished for the faulty assumption, how is this so different from the many other kinds of sub-optimal surprise plays that can work via the element of surprise from the enemy not knowing?

yes, both teams will always run vitasaw, that is the definition of overpowered lol

moving away from idiocy, is there a reason the loch n load hasn't been banned yet? It's ridiculously better than stock

The same could be said of the Escape Plan, the Sandvich, the Crossbow, etc., and yet those items are currently legal.

Obviously something being OP in the definition you're using isn't the rule that is used for banning [or else these items would be banned for being so much better than their alternatives in the meta], but rather we permit things so long as they serve to improve the game, or at least do not break it--and that's why I asked the question. Why ban the item before we even know if its inclusion worsens the game? Is there any evidence of it actually doing so? It changes the mechanics, but how do we know that this is for the worse?

The vita-saw was probably tested when it was added to the game, and already looking at the stats, having 8 seconds off your building removed for the cost of 10 health is a huge advantage, and both medic's running it will slow the game down, compared to the escape plan, which actually makes the game faster cause a pocket can get to mid with crit heals .

Well, I have idea where to look for whitelist history, but considering that the weapon messes with Uber mechanics, it was more likely just kneejerk banned in 2010 when it released, for the reason of the same kneejerk reactions that the weapon still gets today. Someone around in 2010 could confirm or deny if there were any matches played to see how the Vita-Saw affects gameplay.

While I can understand why it might intuitively slow down the game when just looking at the effect it has on building Uber, there's also the fact that it being the standard would also result in more Medic picks, because, while it often makes no different for individual situations, as a whole the 10-15* health reduction would have an impact over the survivability of Medic. I'm obviously open to the fact that it might slow down the game, but I don't think that it's blatantly the case from just looking at the stats.

*because a reduction in max HP also affects the health you get from packs, any time between picking up a medium pack and when you passively return to close to max HP, you are at 15 health disadvantage compared to stock. [also, if you never return to full health, this effect would continue to stack to 20 health disadvantage, 25, etc.]

it lessens the penalty for dying in exchange for making it easier to die. it doesnt reward skill because it offers zero benefits except when the player fails. its strong enough to be mandatory but pretty much offers nothing conducive to fun beyond a cool taunt.

im pretty sure the vita was never really tested, or at the very least definitely not enough for any sort of meta to settle. everyone was way more okay with banning stuff solely for the fun factor back then. and you dont need to be a rocket scientist to determine that a weapon which gives more frequent uber stalemates, slightly frailer medics, and no ubersaw plays doesnt really bring anything exciting to the table.

There's a difference in a high-risk high-reward weapon that gives the player a chance to potentially increase your uber percentage, and a weapon that essentially gives a passive-bonus. Regardless of the 10 hp lost, it's still a stupid idea.

Yes because there's no mechanic in the game that helps medics return to full health to completely negate this massive downside

It was almost certainly scrimmed in a test group at least briefly, making this kind of assumption has been the inevitable direction of your arguments though so I'm not really surprised you've done it.

Even if it's never been play tested the unlock is blatantly the antithesis of a competitive item. No skill required to receive the benefit, lowers the skill difference between strong players and weak, doesn't add any possibility of new ways to play the class or for exciting plays to be made and so powerful it overrides all other saws regardless of their upside eliminating all of their potential skill based plays as well, warping the meta into a low skill anti-competitive direction. It's not difficult to work out and I wouldn't expect strong players to even need to equip it to realise that.

The effect needs to be weak enough to make skill based items that allow big plays to be preferable, it's possible that the consistency of the VitaSaw is so high that not only should the percentage be tiny, maybe 5%, but it shouldn't be passive either. You have to be holding it when you die, or maybe a flip side of the Ubersaw - you get charge on hit that you collect when you die so Medics go down fighting. Incentivising some dumb play potentially, but also creating some skillful moments and encourages a different play style. These are just ideas which may be shit, there are lots of other possibilities but clearly there are solutions to it's anti-competitive design.

Total actual reaction from Valve to it's banning from competitive: none.