its a giant flat choke point
also when dagger created granary_abortion he removed pretty much all the hiding spots

stalemates are fun

its the only 7 cp map in the rotation

back on 360 its all we had for 6v6 besides gpit. I never thought it was that bad or hated it but yeah stalemates are boring.

Idk, it's probably just me, but in my experience I haven't encountered noticably more stalemates on granary compared to other 5cp maps.

if I didn't see bear post here I told myself today was the day I kill myself

same here. I have been playing granary since forever and it never felt stalematey to me. I literally can't see any valid reason to discard such a great map for being different and not open.

Granary wouldn't get shit if there was a 3rd entrance from Mid to Courtyard or if the 2 current entrances were not so close together.

2 Entrances from Mid to 2nd work for maps like gully and snake because they are spaced so far apart.

Being a Soldier, I love Granary week every season because fuck you scout mains.

im just a proxy for waldo
i was indoctrinated playing on a team with him the season this map came out
he forced me to change the team name to "fuck granary abortion" or else he would leave and he refused to play any matches on the map (luckily we had matthew gamerson to save the day during gran week)

You are right. When we see retarded 0/0 stalemates at lan on badlands, it's hard to blame the map.

Granary offers good stalemate breaking options such as flank pushing (on yard, or lunchbox, commit 2 players) or kritzkrieg use. It's even possible to trade ubers then have a heavy securing the fall back.

People who hate granary hate it because they can't #yolomax their way in zones and actually have to be a bit smarter.

first of all you have #tf2lobby in your steam alias which leads me to believe your opinion is invalid
second point has a few options but it pretty much boils down to pushing lunchbox for a pick, sacking in a scout, or trying to edge cap and or exchange ubers on point
the real aids is last on which you can sit with two snipers in each shudder door and a sentry gun that shoots all the bombers (for some reason euros are the only ones who have figured out that 2 snipers on defense is retarded, esea hasnt limited it to 1)
no matter how smart you are its still nearly impossible to push in and out of last on the map
edit:

its not necessarily that stalematey in pugs or lower level games, but when people know what they're doing (and/or are coordinated) it either becomes a shitroll with the team winning mid winning every round or the game slows down to a crawl with a sniper v sniper duel on last or infinite double sacks as the attacking team tries to break the aids last point
watch any invite match on the map and tell me otherwise

id say sunshine rivals granary's stalemateness

i love dying

because yard holds are aids.

Valve was still in there "just take some flat ground and put some props on it"-phase.

Mid is flat ground with some crates and a catwalk for elevated flat ground
Yard is flat ground split in half by crates
Second is flat ground with a catwalk for elevated flat ground (though I've always felt like it's less of an issue on second it's still pretty bad)
Last is flat ground with pipes for elevated flat ground

Also I really dislike pushing second. It's just the combos spamming until someone falls low enough for the med to pop

I don't hate granary but it's not a map I enjoy playing either

imo snake is worse, not a very shared opinion tho

ya thats cuz ur opinion is objectively incorrect

ONLY MAP SOLDIERS GOOD ON

The mids are pretty shit, i think thats why lot of people hate it.

granary is the only 5cp map in the rotation where the map is laid out in a completely straight line

process:

metalworks:

gullywash:

snakewater

sunshine:

badlands:

and then here's granary:

Probably the most annoying thing on granary is mid for me (at least as medic); the really different but very flat height changes via the crates and catwalk make playing positioning on mid kinda awkward. It's also the map where medics tend to die the most on midfights which can be very frustrating.

The only dynamic part of the map is the mid, every thing else is one dimensional and stalematey.

It requires more team working and strategy I remember kaidus or byte saying before. And a lot of players just want a dm fest

you made me laugh with that tf2lobby remark D:

I agree that pushing out of last is difficult, but I disagree about pushing last.

The thing to understand is that cookie cutter is not the right option when facing 2+ offclasses.

People nowadays are afraid to uber first to make stuff happen, because they know the enemy team will have a better uber and try to push them back with it.
But when you know that you can anticipate it and get stuff like sentry on 4th CP or heavy (or both, or else) and keep on committing your ubercharge/kritz knowing you have the tools to block a counter attack AND knowing the enemy team cannot push either when they themselves have 2+ offclasses.

In europe, lowpander starts to demonstrate alternate ways to play that do not rely on a stark-esque spy/sniper play to win and more or less follow what I explained.

But yeah if people want cookie cutter to do everything it leads to stalemates.

Pushing out of last is a lot easier now than it used to be - and it still wasn't that bad before

But the old norm remains the same.

Your first heavy class into second has to go out of Z. The medic needs to follow them. You're now in position to outflank anybody who has gone in garage, or is looking to spam the left side shutter - or fight them directly in right yard - giving your team time to cap - not to mention that it's rather easy to kill anybody you meet in Z.

Then you just have the second heavier class go upper and clear lunchbox of anybody in there and eventually make their way out of garage and into right yard to assist your erstwhile combo. Epz not difficult.

But people make it super difficult by either ignoring garage or by having lemming impersonation contests on the point.

Granary is fine if you actually take a moment and don't play like a dummy. Not to mention that *most* mid--) second stalemates have multiple options to break - it's even just about the only map in the rotation which has a viable dry push route by flooding left through garage as long as nobody decides to stand around under the exit doorway.

Granary is unpopular because it's *slightly* different from the other 5 cp maps and so people blame the map for their own carelessness.

couldn't have summed it up better.
Last sentence is gold

People want to learn how to play product but cba to learn granary smh

I really liked granary because of the map's artstyle, and all the perch/hiding spots, but it really is a map that a lot of people(mostly scouts) do not enjoy playing on. cp_granary_pro was a good try, but could have been done a lot better. I think making all the shutters and doorways a lot bigger, and maybe adding a few windows inside second looking into last, and a few more props making it easier for classes besides soldier to move around the map would really change people's experience on granary. As for being a stalemate map, in my experience maps like Gullywash are much worse.

stalemates as scout is garbage

I don't like it because the mid isn't fun to play as Demoman or Medic and the yard to second stalemate is really stupid. I don't actually dislike playing any part of the map as any class besides mid and the yard stalemate though. I'd just rather play a more interesting and fun map like Badlands or Gullywash.