and without scout

no that's the quickest way to kill the game.

This has been talked about before. It's a grey legal area, we forfeit almost any kind of Valve support (if you believe that kind of thing exists), forcing people to download a different version from anything other than Steam would be tedious and unlikely to work, nobody wants to develop on the version of the platform Team Fortress 2 was based on, and there are actually tons of quality of life improvements that have been made to the game over years that a outside version of the game wouldn't have.

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no

I guess if tf2 classic can be a thing you could probably make a promod but the population of it wouldn't ever be very good

well, if you want to make a promod you would need people

1. who's gonna make the promod?

2. who's gonna keep it updated?

3. whos gonna maintain anti-cheating measures?

4. who's going to play it?

All i know is something along those lines is being worked on, prolly cant say more without an angry frenchy beating me up tho

Yeah this is a big hurdle but the biggest hurdle is getting it made in the first place. Once its made and the community is behind it I think convincing leagues to adopt it is easier than getting it funded and developed.

Wouldn't server mods be way easier than a promod? Also I don't think the promod would attract any new players, and the comp scene would be kind of hiden to anyone playing tf2 and interested in joining. Also maybe we should wait until comp changes, or not becuase they are very late at this point idk.

That makes sense. are we at the point where we want to agree across leagues that the demo nerf and med speed buff were overall negative things for the game?

I would honestly GREATLY prefer a version of TF2 that was isolated from Valve's changes if for nothing else than to prevent changes/patches from affecting specific seasons and ESEA servers in particular. But I also find most of the newest changes really upsetting and, frankly, an inferior way to play.

I don't know that anybody has *really* done a ton of investigation on the subject - in part because it's likely a quixotic task. But, it would be interesting for some of our tf2 programming nerds to *at least* look at. I for one would LOVE to teleport myself back to 2012 tf2.

If it were *purely* a server mod, I mean hell we can have balloon race, and grappling hooks, but not older versions of the game? That wouldn't affect new players joining because if they wanted to play in a pug or join a lobby there is nothing they have to do on their end. I have no idea if such a thing is possible however.

I doubt if its impossible, This guy changed every weapon in his server. I am sure we can do it too.

it seems extremely possible to change weapon values through server mods. could lead to some interesting stuff, especially old demoman.

not sure to what extent you could go with nerfs and buffs or what kind of people would lead a project like this, but its very interesting stuff really.

you can change class speed, as well as weapon attributes server side, it's just a matter of getting someone to code a "2012 tf2" set of server attributes and then try to push it to be accepted by all leagues

not sure if valve would like that though

i can see them ignoring competitive support entirely or having their hand forced to revert certain weapon and class attributes if they see how popular the past iterations being used are

my bet is on the former though, but then again, what better way to get the message across that we're dissatisfied with certain aspects of the game than to change them ourselves and have valve see that we actually prefer it that way

Yeah... If only they actually listened or actually thought our feedback was worth something we might have a decent MM system, cuz we told them how fucked it was in beta and they did an amazing job at ignoring literally everything we said.

this is part of why an actual promod appeals to me a lot. imagine there being an actual usable ingame pug system.

Well I can understand Valve's thinking. Why balance the game for a VERY small subset of players when you've got tens of thousands playing a different game style whose requirements are so different from that small subsets?

Scout speed buff for example, really hurts 6s both because it changes the nature of scout ubers AND enables enemy medics to be more lackadaisical with their own positioning - and allows them to escape from enemy ubers more easily. But scout is miserable to play on many of the most popular pub maps. So you make it easier for medics to heal him and maybe it will be less miserable. The same goes for demo, the demo nerf neutered kritz here, and made scouts even stronger, but on pub maps it made *most* of the other classes more appealing, instead of seeing 3-4 demos on every team.

They didn't do these things because they hate us. Such a mod would also take the onus *off* of valve to try to have to balance everything with several different demographics in mind - they could just focus on making pubs as fun as possible - that's nothing for them to get upset about. I doubt they sit up at night mad at all the people playing mario kart mods lol.

Ever since Reflex (the purist quake clone) came out, I've expressed sentiments of making a purist/pro version of TF2. I can promise that nothing on my end has been developed so far, I've merely sketched ideas. I would consider myself passionate enough to spend a year creating such a thing, however a lot of things need to be flushed out before I consider actually starting.
Following up on this thread:

• Adoption is a huge gamble and could result in a fractured community. Not only do the players need to accept that this new way of playing TF2 is the future, but the service owners as well, and if they don't, their user base would need to move to a new service.
  
• If that amount of work is put into a project, creating a new league for multiple regions isn't that much more added, or even services like serveme, pugchamp, etc. I'd like to be clear on the fact that I don't intend to replace those services and I am extremely grateful to the creators and maintainers of these projects.
  
• If I recall correctly, it is not a legal grey area: you're allowed to redistribute the source SDK and source assets into a mod, as long as you don't monetize it.

I have, however, started working on a set of smaller server plugins in hopes that they would be played during Essentials.TF Experimental Cups, and I intend on making them digestible by VALVe if they ever come to listen to us.
The first one I've made might be a polarizing example, I'm not sure everyone would agree to those changes, but bare with me: here's a change to 5CP that involves timers in the gameplay.
Next mod will probably attempt to turn Pyro's flamethrowers into lightning guns. I don't see why more changes in that scope wouldn't be welcomed (medic movement, demo's stickies); besides we've learned from VALVe's mistakes that pushing an update focused on a single class is an awful idea.

N.B.: I'd like to call for people not to be so close-minded about the issue of ProMod/server side mods; exploration does not mean commitment, it's the next best thing after VALVe, the game is on its last breath, what's wrong with making the most of it? etc.

Thanks for reading, let's give demo a glock.

On one hand it would be a hassle if you have to download an specific client or mod for it to work
On the other hand banned weapons could be modified to be more balanced and allowed (quick-fix comes to mind)
if it could be done server side without a separate client download it would be ideal

Right. If everything is still accessible within the game itself I see no reason for people to be up in arms about switching over.

The entire stigma of making a pro mod is that it'd be difficult to code a separate game and move over to it, but if that isn't needed to be done then is there really even a problem?

Can we FINALLY finish the weapon timer promod please? Thanks

I've always thought a TF2 ProMode would be enjoyable to at least play in the case that Valve never delivers. In terms of making the ProMode the official comp TF2 game that everyone would play, I don't think it'd work and be very hard, but as a side game for whoever wants to play in it for fun(and get away from all the bullshit), it'd be cool to test around. Perhaps it might even inspire Valve(lol) to copy over some changes.

To be honest, I find it ridiculous that Valve hasn't implemented at least some basic aspects of comp TF2 6's to comp MM yet and the restrictions they put on comp MM, particularly the class limits, viewmodel restriction, HUD restriction, and even graphical restriction. One of the few many spoken reasons about that during that time was so people wouldn't be confused when they watch a player's stream and see different stuff, or more specifically a high level player. It would seem that if Valve was trying to treat the game like CSGO or try to make it in a way for the future of Valve's vision of "competitive TF2" in eSports. But they obviously don't care enough it seems, and they have yet to truly deliver upon it or put an effort towards it. Overall, it's just a waste that comp MM ended up being when the comp TF2 community has developed over many years and solidified what works and how it should be, but Valve just chooses to just ruin all hope.

We can wait longer, we can continue to do what we're doing, we can deal with and live with the issues that Valve does not want to fix or cooperate with for many years more to come(and have already), what's another year or two...or three or more. A TF2 ProMode isn't out of the question completely, if it means for a chance to finally play the game how it's supposed to be, make the changes that we want, and possibly create something better.

going to a promod would for sure kill valve’s desire to do anything competitive related and more than likely force esea to stop supporting tf2 alltogether

a tf2 promod should really be a last resort type-of option

I think everything mentioned can be achieved with sourcemod, although it's not maintenance free

Even though I agree that a promod isn't necessary, I also don't think it'll work as a last-resort type deal. Last resort means either that Valve has completely abandoned TF2, or that the comp scene is otherwise very close to death. Either way, I don't see how or why anyone left at that point would want to dedicate their time to a promod. I don't think the game is anywhere near broken enough to need it, but for the people who do want to play a promod, the time is now. The longer you wait, the smaller the pool of people who will want to play gets. By the time a promod is the only option, it will probably be way too late to play it that way.

as opposed to?
i mean the valve comp has been "out" for over a year and its still overall the same crap than the beta

I'm not exactly a comp player but if people start developing a promod I'd definitely be up for trying and testing it. It's an interesting project and I'd like to see what the community could envision as a more "purist" tf2.

As far as replacing current 6s with it? I'd imagine that being something for way down the line when tf2 is actually dead and the die-hard players of the future want something to gather around without having to deal with some of the BS the game has. But we just had a big update, I'm hoping pyro flames will get fixes soon because we documented the issue and sent emails to valve about that particular absurdity, and there are more updates coming including the matchmaking overhaul.

Idk, I was pretty pessimistic after meet your match, but jungle inferno - with its problems - is still a good update to me, and the tf team's recent attitudes show they are putting the effort with the little resources they are given by Valve.

NECRO

http://www.moddb.com/mods/team-fortress-2-vintage
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/TF2_Vintage

Really really not worth the effort but just for anybody who might have actual interest in playing the game vanilla, there used to be servers that modded the game into vanilla but ever since quickplay the server community side of tf2 kind of entered life support if not necrosis.