Not changing up maps is fine if there’s nothing wrong with the map pool, except there is
Plz add new granary and bagel and remove 2 5cp maps for them(like sunshine and some other map)

Theres been no decent maps to include so whats the point?

I've played in the older seasons when there was freight, bazillion, obscure, logjam etc. The maps were fucking awful and I would have loved to have the map pool we have now back then. I would take reckoner any day over those maps and I fucking hate reckoner.

Remove reckoner and bring back granary, I don't think alot of maps being made are all that good.

no point when 90% of the feedback is "it's aids" with no actual insight why

Generally the problem is not that ETF2L doesn't want to allow new maps to be tried, but more about people always preferring to play the same maps over and over again. Right now we have been holding cups before every season in the past 2 years (except for S28). And to get a proper result from all of those, we always have been gathering information from the top teams on how did they feel about a certain map played in a cup and a certain map played in the season before.

Now sadly, more often than not the results from that have received have shown to us of people wanting the same 6/7 maps being kept every season, while the newer maps just barely wouldn't get in, even if we would prefer the votes of top players who did take part in said test cups. At this point making a decision gets way too hard, it's not a simple thing of just removing a map and adding another one in, since it really does have impact on the season after that too and numerous other European events that we simply don't want to fuck over just because we aren't running some specific map in the map pool anymore for the current season.

Realistically we would still want to give new maps a try whenever they do deserve it, but knowing that the main map pool that ETF2L has contains 5 maps that everyone likes and 2 that could be considered to be replaced, which doesn't leave too much room in the end for a single map to be enough good in this part of TF2's age to be accepted in the competitive map pool when we all are aware of the base maps already so well that they have gotten in to the game officially even as well. You never know however when some new (or even an old) map would surprise and blow others out of the water though, but I'll be waiting for that day to come when the feedback given is always very minor and not really helpful to the mappers, like how you can see it from this thread alone even.

Ok I don't know if it's the newest version of Reckoner but I think it is and I hate the mid. Why are there two crates stacked upon each other on each side. I heavily prefer the old mid

you guys killed my good bro granary

please dont add new reckoner, keep the one in the rotation
swap out prolands or some other less liked map for bagel
has propaganda been tried out in a map cup yet? i'd like to see it played at a high level

Can we just rotate the 3-4 maps no one likes each season for a bit of variety

look into koth maps more or completely remove the gamemode, because having that 1/7 odd koth map in there is kinda pointless aswell

I know UGC has an extra week in the regular season, but they always have a 'random/new' map in the mappool during the regular season. I really like that.

I don't think adding new maps in every single season is a good idea (I'd like to see 1-2 maps rotating, tops), but I'd love to see a lot of map cups. I really miss playing cp_cardinal and I'd love to play cp_propaganda or cp_stitched. Playing a new map from time to time, where you can sit with your teammates and talk about positions, think about strats is fun :)

I don't see how anyone who's played bagel more than once can think it's a good map for 6v6

Has lazarus been tried? Heard some people say it had potential.

bagel was in the pugchamp rotation for like a week and it got removed because everyone realised it was fucking awful

Give me my granary back.

I highly disagree in that there's no point in changing up the maps as I think there are better maps to play over both Reckoner and Sunshine, I played a lot of the older seasons as well. The maps that you mention weren't exactly the best and I wouldn't advocate for any of those, but I do miss the stimulating and strategical aspect of Gravelpit that varies wildly from your typical 5CP game - most 5CP maps don't really seem to try any different approaches, they are all fundamentally based on the curve based design found in Badlands, which of course is great, but I think that in some ways you are actually creating a lot limitations which inevitably leads to stagnant maps.

Furthermore, this is why I think Granary is interesting to both play and watch, as it exhibits a different and unique linear design with easily pushable second from last points; this is because of the lack of lobby design, which is prevalent in essentially all 5CP maps based on Badlands.

Anyway, I'd love to see some adjustments in the map pool.

this has been a massive issue with ESEA forever, people care too much about every map being perfect (impossible) and allowing the rotation to get stale (which it has). Some maps in the rotation have been extremely flawed forever and have been included in the rotation season after season, people complain, people realise they cant adapt or dont want change, nothing happens, the cycle continues.

If people want maps to be better or want new maps in the rotation to replace maps they dislike it starts with being open minded and PLAYTESTING MAPS. almost everytime i see a newer map added to pugchamp rotaiton, people automatically ban it and it never gets played, and the rare time that it does, people just whine the whole time causing other people to whine because everyone is a bunch of fucking whiners essentially.

If we want new maps^^^^^THIS has to stop^^^^^

didnt read above but new maps tend to be shitty and require many iterations to even become mediocre

i know its a double edged sword because if u never test new maps and give mapcreators actionable feedback u never get good new maps but the majority of the playerbase would just rather play snakewater and badlands badlands than spend 4 hours every weekend figuring how how to make cp_auschwitz viable

I hate new maps even after making one

When process and snake water were added to the rotation they were far from what they are now and beyond less than optimal. They were still playable and eventually became the most liked and consistent maps in the rotations after many updates.

What’s to say this same scenario couldn’t be true for maps like reckoner, cardinal or kalinka for example? All of those maps are in a better state than when snake and process were added and could easily take over outdated and stale maps like badlands and granary which have been in rotation since the dawn of time with minimal changes

Granary/badlands used to be kings in the popularity contest
Now its process, and most people really dislike granary and reckoner. Product is often refused in scrims because "its just DM" - then you see open teams that have no idea how to forward hold or passive hold on that map
i think these 3 unpopular maps could be switched from time to time if a new map gets popular. In my opinion logjam was way more fun and less stale than reckoner for example.

also fuck eu pugchamp circlejerk that changes map manually when kalinka happens

#bringbackgpit

because snake and process both had parts of the map that were clearly functional from the get go

mid and the mid-2 push on both maps made sense

i have a rly hard time thinking of any spots on that map that seem well designed and/or playable

i don't think bagel is a good map neccessarily, but I think it's stronger than some of the maps in the pool now, and the map pool should reflect that.

The problem with new maps is that nobody wants to pug (and in some cases scrim) on them because they think they're aids, then it gets to that map's week in the season and it is aids because nobody has decent strats for it.