had a match in freakpugs, heres some clipping issues i notcied
http://imgur.com/a/xRslA

edit: missing textures in a few places
https://imgur.com/a/gp6VS

Played this map on tf2stadium today and found a few things. Take it with a pinch of salt as I'm an open shitter and this lobby wasn't exactly a top-level gaming experience.

http://imgur.com/a/TvBKW

So this map is still on my table - haven't been actively working on it as of late because of Reckoner and university. Want to let y'all know that it is still in development and I am planning another update in the future.

Hope you all have a happy holidays, stay safe out there.

cp_cardinal_rc1

>> DOWNLOAD RC1 HERE! <<

As always, if there are issues, let me know ASAP and I will produce an rc1a.

Some of the minor issues present in the thread are still present within the map due to incorrect internal versioning, it will be fixed in rc2 (or an rc1a if a big issue is found).

- Fixed invis props on 2nd
- Fixed nodraw holes
- Added shutter door to fountain-side of mid-second connectors
- Made second cap slower
- Replaced octagon on mid with fountain
- Replaced fountain in second with crate stack
- Opened passage through shed kind of like granary's Z
- Added new barriers to block sightline on second
- Added wooden boards to scaffolding on archway into second to let soldiers do wall jumps easily
- Repositioned lamppost on second
- Put boards over shutters under second
- Various lighting and detail touchups

Screenshots:

https://tf2maps.net/attachments/20180409174248_1-jpg.75374/

https://tf2maps.net/attachments/20180409174257_1-jpg.75375/

https://tf2maps.net/attachments/20180409174257_1-jpg.75376/

https://tf2maps.net/attachments/20180409174257_1-jpg.75377/

https://tf2maps.net/attachments/20180409174257_1-jpg.75378/

https://tf2maps.net/attachments/20180409174257_1-jpg.75379/

https://tf2maps.net/attachments/20180409174257_1-jpg.75380/

https://tf2maps.net/attachments/20180409174257_1-jpg.75381/

Beautiful map; great work. I found an invisible lip that requires jumping over, same height as the railing next to it.

I'm holding W in the screenshot and not moving forward, same on the BLU side, as well.

https://i.imgur.com/BBWlRSK.jpg

Looks like the railing was edited out but the clipping left in.

From Sage's post:

https://i.imgur.com/h3HKBjn.jpg

cp_cardinal_rc1a

>> DOWNLOAD RC1A HERE <<

- Fixed fence clipping bugs and a few others in preparation for the Meet Your Map competition end

map is amazing

A custom crate prop in 2nd fades away at a certain distance if you have an FPS config. I doubt its game breaking but it could be exploitable in some niche situations. I guess the type of object it is makes it able to fade-out when it shouldn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-inqTOVfm8

I'm concerned about the flow between mid and 2nd :

there is this huge sightline the offense can do nothing about

https://i.imgur.com/xXoEf4k.jpg

Then regardless of which side the offense puts their heals defense can block every path by having their combo here :

https://i.imgur.com/qWzW8MJ.jpg

defense has eight advantage over all chokes too;

And this is the same when defending mid; just put your heals on point and you lock down everything

https://i.imgur.com/KBz2OI3.jpg

In those conditions it's impossible for either team to force trades and fights unless a numbers advantage is already there. And the only way to get one is to do the oh so interesting metagame of suicide bombers and snipers.

Also midfight is very frustrating as scouts can link all the highground spots together without touching the ground and can do so while staying in medigun beam range.

It's a map made for the 2018 playstyle and I don't like that.

the middle forward spawn is recessed slightly into the wall so if you try to rj off it to the side, you strafe into the wall and get blocked. forward forward spawn isn't like that.

edit: i like twiggy's comment, and kinda think second could be reworked a fair bit, which might also help not make the map seem five miles long

I can get glitched there (red side) :

https://i.imgur.com/yT8dgFu.jpg

elacour showed this trap, that's pretty lame:

https://i.imgur.com/BaMxMsM.jpg

Why is there an accessible balcony (for scout or jumpers) if it's to noclip it?:

https://i.imgur.com/G9bWwmJ.jpg

the transition from 2nd to last and from last to 2nd needs some improvements
theres so many high places that are annoying to fight against and its hard to get out from 2nd to last correctly, or to push out of last because of how fast they spawn in mid after you kill em in a succesful last hold

forgot to mention, there's some weird clipping behavior on that ornamental hook thing on second spire, the side facing toward mid. if you jump above so you'd normally pass through it, sometimes you get hung up briefly.

does any else get major fps drops at 2nd?

im on dx9 using comanglia's fps config if that matters

yeah fps isn't that good for me either but my pc isn't too good anyway

2 notes about 2nd point:
The street light above healthpack can be stood on while this one cannot, is that meant to be ?
The wooden structure on the left of the screenshot I just linked has a playerclip around it, preventing direct contact with the solid object. Could that playerclip also have projectiles explode on it ? Left-wall jumps are kind of awkward already

Thanks, map is pretty.

You know how some people say granary is 7cp? This map is like 9cp. There is so much useless space between points that just means more transition time and will probably lead to more difficult/longer pushes when teams learn to play this map, it also leads to nutty sniper sightlines. Also, there are a million hiding spots to check when pushing so you don't get backcapped or just shot in the back by a hiding scout when you're trying to push out, this also slows your pushes.

Here's my feedback based on scrimming it a few times and playing this match on it: https://play.esea.net/match/13328516
note: I am not a good player so my analysis could be very wrong but hopefully I'm correct-ish

Last point

Pushing into the far left door with uber / player ad as seen here seems a little bit too strong

https://tf2maps.net/attachments/20180409174459_1-jpg.75379/

What I assume phi's intention was for this last was that for the left entrance you can walk in deeper without using but the doorway doesn't put you in as far, pushing in right gets you in deep from the start but you'll have to pop through because the doorway is smaller and more spammable, pushing in through the lower shutter is good for momentum and catching out the other team cause you'll rely on them not having a lot of attention towards it, and the last entrance which resembles a battlements is probably for when you were trying to go right but it got stuffed hard and you need a fast alternative entrance similar to how launchpad works on gullywash last.

However because of this structure when pushing in left:

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/923680909723413325/3DC6A10BC7C83D4E9B2C74021A034DF0B6AA7E98/

You can get onto their players aggressively really easily. We would just pop through on a scout and a soldier, our pocket can skip jump across the thing and land on their medic with no difficulty, and your medic and scout can catch up to him in time to flash him.

Another thing is that it doesn't really feel like you have a way to kite the enemy team as the defenders. What we decided to do was that since popping in right worked so well we'd just play on the left when we have uber disad, but after they pop in right you have no where to go to.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/923680909723429289/CDE312F0C99B1D39721B0922CBC1A7E2DFBC12EA/

Once they pop in right you can't go forward as it just brings you closer to their team and you'll die and you can't back up into spawn because you'll just get locked out and they'll play point. Your only option seems to be to walk right around the shed:

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/923680909723434483/CFF6B7C1E68F9EBD720577F0C7761B9118091ADD/

But the amount of protection you have here is basically the same as if you were still by the shed. Metalworks does this well for example, there's the wall behind the point for the defenders so once the attacking team pushes in they can kite around to the opposite side of where the attackers pushed in from. Basically the last feels like it's missing something like this, and going for the enemy team's medic with your uber is very effective.

Second point

I'm not sure if this is bad per se but it feels strange that it works out like this.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/923680909723457994/421AA7CE988537FE03C8452080BC117DF0232123/

As the defenders, this area seems to be held best by your combo. You can have your demoman put sticks on the left shutter and middle doorway, and your pocket can be holding the house area on the right close with your medic near him.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/923680909723638780/B4DB2A1E1EF3415A88FA94189A3149C5D4EF62CD/

For the attackers though, the other side of those doorways don't feel like they require your combo to hold them. As defenders the other side is probably not going to be too adventurous anyway but you can hold the far right door with just your roamer, and the left area can be watched by your demo

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/923680909723646986/0A9A3F33D706483ED6A8691C03F158C6DCE3E17E/

This leaves this area, which our team coined valley for the attacking team's combo to hold. This area is comparable to big door on gullywash. Common plays for the attackers on that map are to rotate their heals to the flank to try and get a pick, send someone behind, or have someone snipe from there. The only difference is it feels like you can afford to have your heals here by default, not as a rotated play. The sniper sightline is also huge so if you bring your heals over, sac your flank scout and have him come up on sniper the other team's heals can't really rotate over to stop you cause they'll just get picked. Perhaps the defending team should have their demoman watching this area instead of being on the left, but then the left side feels vulnerable to the same thing happening but in reverse: The attacking team can bring their heals to the left area and rush your flank. I'll continue to experiment with this in the future when we have the chance to play this map more but overall it feels like there isn't a perfect way to hold and either way you do it your flank will be very weak and easily pushable.

As for the mid fight / mid point, I don't feel like I understand it well enough to offer feedback yet but if I have ideas I'll be sure to post again

edit: forgot to mention, the spawn positions feel really cramped. They could be spread around a bit because right now it's pretty easy to accidentally heal the wrong person on the rollout

Is there a way to fix FPS drop on 2nd?

Phantoms points are really solid, I think everything he said about last is correct, it is really nice for defenders though when it’s even uber there is tons of positions to hold aggressively which is fun. Second I agree mostly as well, I think it would benefit greatly from having the little lobbies opened up and the middle doorway by the flower pots more practical. It basically gets no use because it’s so crammed and the defending team can easily hold a combo beside or above it. Absolutely love the way the mid plays, as a medic main this mid is one of the more fun to play and it reminds me a lot of gullywash and metalworks. I also agree with phantoms points about the spawn areas, very awkward.

Keep up the good work phi looking forward to the changes

its really good, but it's hard making callouts since there aren't too many distinctive features

Few little details I noticed:

• Next to Red last , the ground from outside the map sticks out into the connector. On Blu side it's fine.
  
• On Blu second, the clip brushes stick out on both sides of the bunker, so you can get stuck on it/stand on top of it. On Red side these are fine.
  
• On 2nd, both sides of the map. This perch might be intentional? I'm not sure. It was standing out since it's the only really high perch that was kept in.
  
• Between mid and 2nd, towards the little balcony of 2nd. This corner might benefit from a smoothing clip brush.

the ambient noise of all the outside areas is really really annoying and now i cant unhear it. pls help

I don't understand why rocket jumping is so restricted on this map. There are extremely few places where it is actually possible to pull off good wallshot jumps compared to other maps. The map is geometrically cluttered which impedes mobility a lot. The art pass that this map has gone through has resulted in a very good looking map whose detailing negatively impacts gameplay.

https://i.imgur.com/tV9fQLW.jpg

These displacement walls negatively impacts rocket jumping. You need to be very close to a wall to pull off a good rocket jump (preferably 0 hammer units), but this is just not possible with displacement walls.

https://i.imgur.com/yYUAZjC.jpg

It is unnecessarily hard to pull off a good rocket jump from this position because of the fact that there is no wall to wallshot on. Also bad displacement walls again.

https://i.imgur.com/ay2Wwya.jpg

This wall is an example of a wall that you can use to get a good wallshot jump. I feel like it's way too low though, which makes it impossible to pull off a high rocket jump. Something to note though is that rocket jumps on angled walls are slightly worse so that's a downside too. The rock underneath it has awful geometry and it terribly unsmooth.

https://i.imgur.com/7aRMSbB.jpg

There are a few areas you can easily get stuck on the ceilings when trying to rocket jump through. This one is the worst offender, as getting trough the hole requires precision and just jumping towards the ceiling might get you stuck on the bolt underneath the ceiling.

There is a ridiculous overuse of displacements when ramps and flat brushes would have been sufficient. Displacements affect rocket jumps negatively if they are poorly used compared to ramps and flat brushes, as it is harder to rampslide on displacements but it is also harder to pull off a speedshot on displacements. They should be used conservatively. Even the roofs on mid are displacement for no good reason at all.

TL;DR: Rocket jumping is awful on this map.

EDIT: Additionally, this is a map where you need good rocket jumps to play efficiently because of the long distances you have to cover. "Harder" is also not the right description when describing speedshots/rampslides on displacements. It is harder, but only because it is pretty random whether you get it or not.

This map is soooo big, its so hard to use Uber/number adds effectively because there is so much transition time

21:30 Creduu: i dont like cardinal
21:31 呂ヨ冊冊 (gemm): Creduu what would u do to the map so u would like it???
21:31 Creduu: make it brighter
21:32 Creduu: and remove all props that dont matter
21:32 Creduu: make shapes more simple
21:32 Creduu: on mid hut
21:32 notyourkindofnanomachines: remove that fucking tank on last
21:32 Creduu: yes
21:32 Creduu: that too
21:32 Creduu: get a floor on last
21:32 Creduu: make left side stair thing lower
21:32 Creduu: when pushing in
21:33 Creduu: remove the rock thing on second
21:33 Creduu: front of choke
21:33 Creduu: get something smaller there
21:33 Creduu: the second house thing at point is useless too
21:34 Creduu: there you go gemm
21:34 呂ヨ冊冊 (gemm): nice go copypaste that here http://www.teamfortress.tv/35238/cp-cardinal-5cp/?page=4#115
21:34 Creduu: no u do it

Half of the middle point is useless, if you go down into the slope rather than going towards the fountain you just get destroyed by demo/soldier spam and give up all the highground leading to mids playing out nearly identical every time with very little variance.

The lobby in between middle and second has way too many different entrances/exits which is just really silly since it makes aggressive holds almost impossible without getting flanked.
Pushing into second gives me flashbacks of overwatch map design where the defending team has all the highground and the attacking team has little to none, making it very hard to have any sort of gameplan besides 'use through the doorway and run at them'.
Pushing into second from last is also just a nightmare since, once again, the enemies have all the highground and you have to traverse way too much ground to make it to the enemy combo. Playing the point isnt an option since you are essentially isolation yourself onto an island that all the enemies can spam without any risk of them being punished.

I find that ubering from left side into last (attacker's pov) is almost always a bad idea since you can easily spammed by pipes from the demo sitting safely on right side (attacker's pov still) and there also is no punish for a soldier sitting ontop of the little highground area near on the left side who can easily get 2 rockets off, force your uber and jump away behind the heavy and sentry that are almost impossible to kill in one push.

I also just find that there are so many random props and walls that are placed to remove sightlines rather than actually designing the map to have very few amazing sightlines which leaves me feeling super claustrophobic and i constantly have to winger jump just to get around.

just some of my thoughts after playing the map for a little bit

https://i.imgur.com/17IMz5r.jpg

I get HUGE fps drops here - Does anyone have a fix?

why can't lawena change the skybox on this map.

help please.

alright theres an invisible wall on second, between spire and the patio that leads into house/mid. it's like the railing is supposed to be longer

Thank you