hes not saying theyre the same as a ctap or a speedshot, he's using them as an explanation why "it's an exploit" is not a valid argument. either you didnt understand his post or you're intentionally putting words in his mouth

yeah it's true learning to wallbug is pretty easy but there are actually some pretty precise wallbugs that are harder than ctaps or speedshots. it's a bit weird saying wallbugs dont take skill when i dont think you know how wallbugs work

What is the most efficient method to finding these wallbugs? I'm curious.

if a wall is angled you can wallbug on it. in some places there are invisible clips that stop you getting stuck in corners that you can also wallbug on. you can see them with r_drawclipbrushes 2

idk why you bold highlighted one of the worst points you made in your entire nerd essay, like yelling is going to make it right or something.

Don't pretend like being seen in a wall bug suddenly makes you not able to rocket jump. Afaik a lot of these spots are you being pressed against a wall, right? Unless you're making a 100% solo play, doing a rocket jump off the wall will get you far enough away to jump out or get an arrow.

Also, when a team is pushing at full speed and a scout checks for sticks they're not actually looking up at a choke point and looking at everything on their screen to analyze for a fuck ton of stuff. It's usually a like half second flick, you look directly above the door with your eyes, don't see little red or blue dots that your brain is good at recognizing instantly, then you respond accordingly. It's not like every combo scout in invite just holds w through a choke staring at the sky.

I'm pretty sure sunshine's lighthouse has something that pushes you away from the wall slightly when you jump into it, so it seems like there are ways for map makers to prevent wallbugs

wallbugs don't necessarily have to be against an angled wall, just against an angled clip brush. the broken wallbugs that most people complain about (high in the sky) are in clip brushes and not on walls

sorry for the long post again, but there's no other way to respond to everyone

speedshotting isn't that hard, even for newer players, and is honestly comparable to wallbugs as far as reliability and skill required go. there is most definitely a progression of skill when it comes to wallbugging.

there are wallbugs that you can do on actual physical walls and there are hiding spots that basically make you look like you're floating in the air. im not sure what you're trying to get at here.

many hiding spots have 0 visual indicators. 95% of wallbugs can be identified by just looking up when going through a choke. you're blowing the practicality of wallbugs way out of proportion.

this is a decent point, but is honestly not how it works out in practice. as someone who has used wallbugs in a competitive setting a lot, i can say for certain that i've never been spotted in a wallbug and then went on to do something useful and not feed. the only way that people will understand this point is to actually play against wallbuggers. i could easily go through each possible scenario and show how a team would deal with it, but i dont want to spam this thread any more than i already am. if you happened to believe me in that a spotted wallbugger is useless, it then just becomes a job of spotting him, which is quite easy (peek the choke and look up, have your flank peek, etc.)

reading comprehension

there are strategies to mitigate the use of wallbugs. making all clip brushes orthogonal is a big one, and depending on how creative the mapmaker gets there are a bunch of other possibilities.

i bolded that section because i wrote a nerd essay that most people probably wouldn't read. if they took one thing from that section, i wanted it to be that. don't read too much into it bud.

you seem very confused about how wallbugs would work in-game, so you can start by watching this video that already was posted earlier on the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o50bA8wLTjw. you might notice that a majority of the useful wallbug spots are on a player clipping brush and not an actual wall, meaning you would in fact not be able to jump off of it.

if you can't mentally register that there is literally a player floating in the air above you while checking for sticks, the problem might be you, not the wallbugger.

Perhaps I can't tell the difference from the medic POV between a person landing on me from a wallbug and a regular bomb but I can't even remember an instance where someone wallbugged against me. I think this issue is being made to be a bigger deal than it is and I'm not a fan of banning things just because we can.

Point 1: Somewhat debatable imo but we're not really here to talk about speedshotting.

Point 2/3: I'm a bit uncertain as to what hiding spots you're referring to, and would like it if you could provide some examples for me.

Point 4: I agree to some extent, however a scout can't both look up and to the sides at the same time. What do you clear first, the trap or the soldier? It's not as simple as just "look up noob lol" of course there are ways to deal with that to some extent because you have teammates, but in general it's just another tool that could potentially slow down pushes imo. Though I do agree some spots are much worse than others and clearly not useful at all.

In general I don't think it's OP or anything like that but I do believe it's another thing to just make pushing even more of a pain than it needs to be when used in tandem with your team. Perhaps you're indeed right in it overall being somewhat not practical and as time goes on it would be even less useful because now playing against you I can very much expect such play. This is a bit of a non-argument from me, but personally I just think anything that involves floating on invisible shit in a competitive FPS is a little bit dumb even if there's a frame of logic for not banning it.

Someone's gonna invent a new form of backstabbing with this and call it airstabbing

wallbugs really aren't that impactful and game breaking enough to be banned

here's a few spots: https://imgur.com/a/kd7cS5n

i would say these all look like you're floating in the air, but a lot of them are debatable because you're still close to a wall. however, i think up top on gully 2nd where you literally can float in the ceiling (this is not a wallbug fyi), and the one on sunshine last where you legit look like you're floating are perfect examples. i dont get how someone can be okay with these spots and not wallbugs.

i think the rest of what you said is pretty fair, although i dont think it matters what order you clear stickies/wallbuggers; if you know he's there, you can just clear stickies and if he falls down on you, you can back up back through the choke and one/two shot him with little effort.

barring the dumb arguments about "map glitching" and "map maker intention", it honestly just boils down to opinion on whether you think its broken enough to be worth banning, which i really do not. i also think roamer is a bit of an underpowered role and giving him a slightly bigger toolset would only improve the metagame and make it more balanced.

tbh nobody really takes advantage of them except for laz and starkie. I think theyd start to get ridiculous if more ppl starting using them

Well, I can definitely see the hypocrisy of wanting wallbugs being banned and not those spots but tbh I think those particular hiding spots are just as bad personally. All in all, fair enough-- I don't have much else to add to the discussion beyond what I've said already.

True. I know how to do some wall bugs and I absolutely blow at rocket jumping

Wall bugs are stupid when you are hiding on an invisible wall in the skybox with absolutely 0 indication that you should be able to hide there.

For example in our match, you can clearly see me check for stickies, i did a quick check in less than half a second before I had to look forward again to dodge spam and look to see if a soldier was bombing. There was 0 indication that you could or would be hiding above snakewater catwalk on an invisible wall in the skybox.

Are people just supposed to be staring at the sky where ever an angled wall can possibly be because there is potentially a soldier hiding there? It's impossible to know where a soldier can be wall bugging without memorizing every spot that was listed in hellbent's video and there are probably many more that haven't be found.

In the imgur album you linked most of those are fine because there is some visual indication of being near a wall or clipping onto an invisible ledge near a wall. However that is not the same as slowly sliding down an invisible wall that gives no indication of being able to stand there.

Just my two cents

Idk why I'm even responding when you're only being condescending to me, but level headed with everyone else. You told me I don't know the 'tf2 meta' after 'playing for 20 seasons' because I said that the second scout follows ubers sometimes.

Went through the video, and you're right. A lot more of them are floating in the air, not against a wall (30 air, 14 wall). But you also need to admit that the majority of the spots in the video are also not somewhere someone looks when checking sticks like you say they are. In the video 12 of the spots are above a choke that sometimes has stickies (not even like the wallbug is close to where someone would look for sticks, just kinda close to being above the same choke). So 32 of them aren't even near where someone would be checking for stickies.

first of all fuck you. Your argument doesn't even begin to account for the fact that players don't check for stickies every time they run through a doorway. If a demo is dead, or it's called that sticks are det, or someone sees the trap being set somewhere else, they aren't going to check a doorway for stickies. But also I don't think you understand that players don't check for sticks by staring up at the sky. Find some combo scout POVs and show me the times they just w through a choke looking straight up vertically, not looking at the spam coming in ever. Maybe I've just been playing the class wrong for the last 20 seasons.

Chill out bros, it’s just a video game

I don't really have a say on wallbugs but:

This is the exact same mentality that lead to the unbanning of all those dumb weapons with every global whitelist revision, and with ESEA's unbanning of the cow mangler this season.

lmao dude, please don't try to act like you're a little innocent angel that I'm being mean to. you came into my stream chat and called me retarded while i was (level-headedly) talking about wallbugs with other stream viewers (everyone please check my latest vod if you don't believe me). you started being rude out of nowhere, so I was rude back, and then you make a comment that literally contributes nothing to the conversation like "idk why you bold highlighted one of the worst points you made in your entire nerd essay, like yelling is going to make it right or something" as if that's not backhanded and snarky at all. give me a break bro, have the discussion like a rational human or stop posting.

i dont know how you tallied those spots, but going through that video, literally over 2/3 of them are near some choke that can potentially be stickied. just because the spot isn't directly above doesn't mean it isn't easy to check in the same motion as checking for stickies.

what you don't understand is that if wallbugs are accepted, combo scouts will start doing this. i'm not trying to say that there will be 0 extra effort on the part of the combo scout to make sure to check above chokes, i'm saying that they check above chokes already most of the time because of stickies already, so it's not a big deal.

you're strawmanning my argument, i never said scouts nowadays look straight up vertically while running through chokes not looking at spam. i'm saying scouts normally look up for stickies through chokes, and it's not hard to take an extra millisecond to direct your eyes towards the sky while doing so.

this is starting to become a shit-flinging contest, so i'm gonna stop posting unless someone else brings up something worth talking about. i've made my position and reasons for not banning wallbugs pretty clear at this point i think.

qsd

Wait until open players discover wallbugging...........

@laz i understand it sounds hypocritical to say one hiding spot is ok while others aren't, however i think what crosses the line for a lot of people are how other hiding spots make logical sense. hiding on things like ledges or lights makes sense, while standing on nothing and being stuck to a wall just feels very glitchy.

i just dont see how a bunch of glitched skybox spots is adding significant depth to the game. the only thing imo they bring to the game is a very cheesy style of gameplay that is entirely based on memorization. to counter a wallbug there's no skill or outplay involved, you either know the spot and vaporize the soldier or dont and die for it

another potential issue is the very glitchy nature of these bugs. i feel like they'd be incredibly offputting to any spectator or even worse, new players. a spectator who has limited experience and knowledge of the competitive scene seeing something like your snakewater clip i cant imagine would have a positive impression about the game or state of competitive

I remember this so well, fucking legendary

n e r d e s s a y

There is nothing inherently overpowered about wallbugs in comp play. As laz put it, they're functionally just hiding spots in unconventional areas. On paper, as long as more people become aware of them, they'll stop being nearly as effective. It's hard to be unbiased in saying they're too strong when literally only a handful of people even attempt them, so practically nobody ever checks. And just like normal hiding spots, not checking can cost you a lot.

The main practical difference is that wallbugs are way up high in the skybox usually. While it makes these spots harder to check, soldier doesn't really have any good ways to abuse this position aside from falling down right on top of someone. And most of the good wallbugs are in the skybox where there are no walls to shoot--any lower and they're easy to spot--so soldiers jumping off the wall is rarely an issue.

The only issue here is that all of the wallbugs on the currently played 6s maps are entirely unintentional. What that means is that no thought has gone into balancing them. So while having a wallbug over 1 or 2 chokes on a map is probably fine for a gimmick play here and there, if there is a wallbug over every other choke on the map, things get out of hand.

While hiding spots aren't broken, they're annoying to check and they slow the game down. They're good for the occasional upset play, but they shouldn't be common. The fact that each map has like at least 5 different wallbugs, and a lot of them over chokes and forward spawns, is concerning (especially the forward spawn ones).

But there's really no way to tell right now. On the one hand, people could just learn where the common wallbug spots are and that might make them bad and gimmicky. On the other hand, maybe there are too many good wallbug spots on each map such that it becomes really annoying/difficult to check each one no matter where you push from.

If it ends up being the case that some wallbugs guarantee a kill here and there, then they should be banned. Otherwise, they're just a gimmick and should stay unbanned. Until more people start testing these spots, I think it's too tough to call.

that boost allowed you to shoot through basically the entire map as well as being capable of shooting through a really good angle that you were invincible from being shot at from. it's not comparable at all to wallbugging.

dsq

I'd say the one difference is the fact that TF2 is a vertical game, whereas CS is not. TF2 players are used to abusing but also looking for verticality in maps but this is something that is not as common in CS. In that way the Olaf boost broke things way worse then the wallbugs do.

It does but its complicated and nowhere near viable to do for every spot