I think gaps in skill are just more obvious when the demo is involved.

Placing a demo against an equally skilled soldier or scout would probably result in the soldier/scout winning the majority of the time.
(Though that implies being 1v1 with no interruptions which doesn't happen that often.)

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/image/114

In all seriousness though, I feel he's not so bad in 6's because of a few things. High mobility of the standard classes, better teamwork, and people generally know how to deal with him which is I guess something of a hurdle for people new to the game (getting close, getting buffs to weird health counts that can't be 2x100'd, watching for traps etc) Still the strongest class, but you have to be good because people will bomb/+forward you.

I'm terrible at scout and I find no difficulty in taking down a demo

Banny needs a nerf

yea he's pretty much OP, there's a reason only one is allowed in 6s.

but that's not exactly a bad thing. It's Demo's job to be OP, that's his role in 6s. He puts out massive amounts of damage for his team to follow up on. Demo provides an important dynamic, and nerfing or changing him because he's ez in pubs would make the game a lot less interesting.

In highlander I always thought there were too many players for Demo to make as big of an impact.

and who cares about pubs

ding ding ding

What about demoknight? Mangachu with the turning scripts is pretty lethal

-8 frags. Obviously demoknight sucks all around compared to stock stickies demo but the turn scripts flat out remove the downside to the targe and charge, that you can't turn. I mean he can just turn around the corner going faster than the scout with free crits loaded for whoever he comes near. So many cheap med picks like that.

I'm rather sure there is only one demo allowed cuz of rollouts and mobility in the actual fight not cuz it's op

I don't get what this whole "balanced" thing is all about. Especially in a classed based shooter with 9 classes. Good luck with any combination of 9 that's "balanced" Unless it's just a re-skin like counterstrike. A true balanced shooter would have 3-5 classes maybe but the potential to troll just isn't there. If you're losing it's because you're team is doing something worse than the other team. Once you figure out how to outgay and outtroll the other team you win. That's what tf2 is all about.

Assuming you're close to the Demoman and a sticky is on the wall sticky would do 100damage on average.

Assuming you're close to the Demoman and a sticky is at your feet a sticky would do 125+

Airbursting normally produces 50ish-80ish assuming good prediction and positioning (but what do I know UGC steel demo lol). Poorly placed stickes do around 32-40ish.

Is his damage output too good?
Is the arm time too short?
Blast radius too big?
How do we not make him OP if he is?

Thank you for your replies ppl.

i agree that the game is unbalanced as a result of the unlocks, but esea tries to keep it as balanced as possible without eliminating good items that make the game somewhat more interesting.

whether or not demo being op is true or false doesn't matter cause if a class is op, that class raises the level of play (at least in terms of you can do more damage and as a result take more opportunities making the class more interesting) and can make the demo more of a power target that a team can work around. TF2 would be more interesting if more players could play in such aggressive positions as the demo does while still being usful as teammates, but unfortunately tf2 is too much of a team oriented game.

tldr if demo is op, its a good thing

It's the only thing Valve cares about.

(I don't consider spending 10 seconds on a blog post 1% of the player base will see "caring".)

This wrong, i think. A good demoman is the crux of a Highlander team. An amazing one can carry.

Demo's effectiveness per skill is inversely related to player size (roughly). In pubs and HL, the lack of a flank and general spamminess makes an indirect fire class that doesn't take damage but deals a ton really fucking strong. 6s is more fast paced, and its where demo's weaknesses shine. If Valve had actually balanced the popular maps better, it wouldn't be an issue.

how is this even being discussed

theyre limited to 1 for a reason

The president is black

The demo is black

Coincidence????

I think the high level of damage that both pipes and stickies do at any range is a bit ridiculous. Soldiers have to deal with damage falloff, but demos hit hard from anywhere.

On the flipside of things, I think it's equally ridiculous how much self damage you do, and if someone is attacking you close range you're basically going to die, even if you kill them.

That's sort of the tradeoff of the class, though. High potential damage output but a very small window for error. I think that a demo who is anywhere from decent to above average is a solid contributor to a team, but not necessarily OP. Once the skill level gets higher, as others have said, demo can get pretty nasty. And because in 6's the team is sort of built around the demo's damage, it seems more OP than maybe it really is.

Because every mid and second that is played has 2/3 entrances, and 2 demos would mean you'd always be a man pushing in and out. If there were 6-7 entrances for each point, it'd be different.

I feel like since each team gets the same class limits if any class has more potential to do damage and be OP just get a really good player on that class (b4nny) and then you win. But I mean really it seems every class has potential to kinda carry a team and get good damage. So I guess each class has its role and can be used well.

It's the opposite. 6's teams build around the demo because it's OP.

I miss these posts so much :(

I'm very inexperienced about 6s rules and such but aren't they ALSO limited to 1 due to how much they can slow down the game at chokes not just the raw damage output? Overlapping sticky traps can be quite hilarious, rage inducing, cheap, and slow the game down to the point where nothing gets done or pushing is very slow. Some people truly consider the Demoman balanced and not OP so I thought I'd ask.

Do you think pills should have falloff like rockets and stickies?

If you don't have much experience with 6s, then you're going to have a hard time understanding Demo's role. In tonight's IM Grand Final, rr- put out 500 DPM, which is nearly twice as much as what the rest of his team averaged. Do you want two of that running around in a match?

Whether or not we choose to label Demo as OP, we all agree that he's fine the way he is. Being so powerful makes him one of the biggest picks in the game, and the constant threat of every player on the enemy team bum rushing you (sans their demo of course) keeps him in check. We argue about Sniper, and bitch about Granary spawns, but nobody rages about Demo. At least not on the forums.

I personally save my rage for the Direct Hit and snipers who are better than me.

i think limiting a class for the sake of not letting it break the game is good grounds to call it overpowered

"Overpowered" is probably the wrong word. The demoman is the most powerful class in the game, just like the queen is the most powerful piece in chess but noone would call the queen overpowered. And just like in chess you only get one of the most powerfull class but two of the less powerful classes which makes tf2 and chess interesting games.

That only applies to competitive though. If he's only balanced because he's limited to 1 then he has to be too strong once more than one is allowed, right? 2 Demomen are stronger than 2 Soldiers or 2 Scouts? The comp format fixes the imbalance but the class itself isn't balanced. (Assuming he really isn't. Not stating anything.)

Remove all but one class in game.

Game is now balanced.

I 125 dmg killed meb with 1 sticky in a scrim once

I felt bad

I also don't think stickies should be doing that much damage that close either regardless of if it's rare or not. The only time you should be one shotting anything as demo is with a trap.

Valve also messed up upon release because they never put class limits within the game. If you truly want to win just tell everyone to go medic + Demoman.

#55

That is a great way to describe the demoman's role