fuck valve

redeye is such a good dude :)

damn this is like the third time a notable stream has acknowledged this game's merits. maybe we can clip a few more and send them to valve for our major!

we could have done it years ago but YOU RAT BASTARDS keep the vitasaw banned

There's just no way anyone can hate Redeye to be honest

i was thinking about something funke said in a video like 3/4 years ago while i was at work today. he said something like "all valve needs to do is make a competitive contract ticket and forward some % of the proceeds to a tournament prize pot, and it legitimizes tf2 as an esport so much more"

can you imagine if they did that when MyM came out? we'd already have had 5 valve majors by now!!!

this. its legit so easy for them to just add that and they never did

He also answered my question - https://old.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/grgul2/ama_i_am_paul_redeye_chaloner_esports_host_caster/frzaa1x/

I still think the community isn't interfacing with Valve correctly and that we can still create better relationships with them that could lead to something like a compendium eventually.

If your answer to the question of why TF2 didn't take off as an esport is "Valve's fault" you're not looking at the issue deeply enough.

We need to continue to focus on growing the fundamentals of the competitive community, stuff like infrastructure (volunteers, admins, leagues/websites), media (Producers, Casters, Streamers, tf2bers), and events (LANs/Tournaments/Pug nights/Newbie MiX).

2020 was looking like it was gonna be a big year for TF2, then, yknaow, things. More recently, RGL and OzFortress have seen a surge of signups, I'm not sure about ETF2L. Things are starting to look good again imo.

There are so many issues with TF2 "making it" as an esport that have happened throughout the years it would take far too long to mention them, and I do love all you've done for the game, but I do think the whole "Relationship with Valve" boat has sailed.

The fact that in game matchmaking just has the wrong ruleset and map pool should be sign enough of that. Valve aren't interested in interfacing with us, it's a pretty clear "our way or no way" imo, and we didn't follow their way.

I also have a vague memory of a video of I think Gabe and Robin doing an interview long before MyM came out mentioning competitive TF2 as "A group of people who play the game in their own way, but that's not really our game". If anyone knows what I'm talking about, I remembering it being posted on ETF2L's forums years ago

He said it could've been not that it should, it's wasted potential. Overwatch, Valve's unwillingness to compete and the failiure of the competitive matchmaking update were the final nails in the coffin.

I talked to some players and staff in the CSGO community at ESEA + ESL events and the majority were very fucking confused as to why our game gets 0 attention for Valve.

I remember Shroud coming to our PCs at ESEA LAN to watch our game and going "this game looks hard af and I bet 90% of CSGO players would not be able to reach the top level in this game". The only complaint was that it was a bit hard to spectate, which I fully agree. Valve could drastically improve the way this game is spectated and therefore give us an audience of some sorts.

" I do think the whole "Relationship with Valve" boat has sailed."

We're always going to have a relationship with Valve. There is no boat that has sailed anywhere. The devs might be locked up in their room ignoring us because of reasons, but they're still around.

We have built a lot of shit ourselves, my point is we need to build more. The reasons for that don't even involve Valve. If we keep building all those things, at some point we can re-engage with Valve. If we've built enough shit, then the conversation could easily be: "Yao, we've made a pro-mod and we're making a compendium, do you want to help or not?"

Valve will always be a part of the equation, it's better to try and understand them instead of blaming and ignoring them.

I get where you're coming from, but at this point, I feel like any growth in TF2 is going to be in spite of Valve. At this point it's clear Valve doesn't care what happens to the game or the scene, whether you're talking about the monolithic Valve Corporation, or the "work on whatever you feel like" people there. Either way, nobody's working from the inside to make TF2 be the best thing it can possibly be, and as far as we can tell from the outside, nobody is working on the game period. I agree we should keep building stuff and trying to grow our community, but at this point, expecting anything from Valve is a mistake.

I guess what I really want to say is that I wish Valve weren't part of the equation. I wish that TF2 were a game from one of the hundreds of long-dead studios out there and that there weren't the shadows of Counter-Strike and DOTA to make us feel insecure. I wish TF2 could be TF2 without having to be "TF2: The game Valve forgot" I wish Valve wasn't even a consideration, so that we could just get on with a promod and a compendium and majors and everything else that proper grassroots esports do without having to talk about how the non-existent developers might feel about it.

The fact that they are a part of the equation, and yet patently refuse to even communicate with us about literally anything to do with the game or the scene, let alone take any action whatsoever to make the game work better in a competitive context, is what's so frustrating about our relationship with Valve. Because I think we do understand them, at least as well as we can when they are literally incapable of communicating, and I don't think that understanding them is the issue. It's the fact that they're standing with their foot in the door just enough to make all of us think that they might come back some day, but when you ask them if they're coming in or leaving, they pretend not to hear you.

If Valve is going to stay a part of the equation, they should stop pretending that their presence is irrelevant to the community around the game. And if they won't, then we should tell them, and more importantly ourselves, that we officially don't care what they think, and whatever we think is best for the game and the way that we want to play it, that's what we're gonna do, Valve be damned. I'm just so sick of their ghost looming over every decision we make like that of an abusive step-dad. We should be doing and building things because we love the game and want to share it with as many people as we can, not because we think that maybe if we build enough and change enough, Valve will come down from on high and save us from ourselves.

It really fucking sucks that TF2 is a ghost of what should have been. Don't get me wrong, I think this game achieved some amazing stuff, at the hands of dedicated and loving community members no less; but a part of me still wishes Valve gave a fuck then, and gave a fuck now about our competitive community.

Imagine what we could have gone to, massive massive majors. Hundreds of thousands screaming fans, the people that love this game and play this game actually making some fucking decent money for all the time and effort they put into this game.

It hurts, seeing a game you literally grew up on (I was 8 when I first started playing TF2, I'm 21 now) be ignored by the people that made it.

Our growth now, like ghad said will be in spite of valve, and honestly that kinda sucks because we deserve valves attention. We earned it, and yet they still pretend like they didn't make probably the best class based shooter of all time.

I love this game, I hate how valve treats us.

when we pulling up to gaben house?

I can never imagine myself getting addicted to a game again like I did with tf2.

Man those memories as a youngin getting home in middle school and just loading up tf2 without a care in the world.

Sucks valve didn't put as much effort into this game. Literally no other game compares, and if you disagree, you big capping

Honestly I can quit for 5 years and if the mood swings by me one day, I'd reinstall the game and play again...…granted the comp scene stays alive

i'm amazed extine is still parroting that nonsense in 2020

tf2 is the only game i enjoy playing

idk y u ppl complain like this all the time it’s just nice to see lol
ps dota/lol looks like a shit game to spectate but ppl still watch it lol(including me)

I get your point but I really struggle to understand how you can still think it that way in 2020.

I think the community has done anything possible, countless times, without any support from Valve whatsoever, for years and years now.
Nothing has changed. There can't be anything more that a community alone can do at this point.

Valve does not want to make TF2 an esport, it was never in their plans, they make enough money off hats n keys n cosmetics already.

TF2 was never meant to be an esport. When it released, they had no idea how huge the skill ceiling actually would have turned out to be. It was always sold like a hat-simulator or whatever, never as something competitive.

Hell, the dev-team is probably composed by 2 members at best. And it still runs on Source 1 (f)

Like it or not, that's just the reality of things, and I wish I could see it the same way as you do, but at this point I feel like it's just delusional.

EDIT: just wanted to add that if the solution to this stagnant """relationship""" with Valve is to shift towards their idea of competitive, with no class limits, no weapons banlist ecc. don't count on me. I love 6s cause they take away all the unnecessary bullshit that should not be in a competitive game, but I get it just gets down to a matter of taste in this case.

I'm just going to respond to this uhh... sentence? and I need to break down each part.

Valve would like to see TF2 become a viable and successful esport, but you're correct they don't want to MAKE TF2 a successful esport in the sense that they're not going to drop a lot of cash suddenly out of no-where. This ISN'T what happened with Counter-Strike and DotA. With both cases they were actually supporting eXisting infrastructure. Valve's whole methodology involves not forcing the community to do or like certain things. They aren't trying to be Blizzard or Riot, paying player salaries and they definitely want to avoid being Shootmania.

Never in their plans? It depends on the sense that you're talking about. Supporting the esports community has always in their plans, buying us all new lambos has never been in their plans.

You're definitely right about the last part, which ties into my original point. We have to show them we can bring in money to the TF2 eco-system in order to justify them supporting us more. This hasn't changed since idk, 2011? 2012?

Community has done a ton, I don't mean to denigrate that, but there's also been a ton of in-fighting and fracturing over the years. We definitely could use some help from the developers, but they have other stuff to focus on.

I'm sure they'll be working on TF2 again if they aren't right now, but honestly from their perspective the balance is pretty good and nothing is majorly broken. Whatever they're working on might just be the huge UI update we need to modernize TF2, they'd be stupid not to do something new with the TF universe eventually. We just need to keep doing our thing.

Casual TF2 needs definitely overshadow comp TF2 needs for the time of the Valve developers. We still just need to keep growing. RelaX about it though, it's no big deal, just have fun and it will all come in time.

https://medium.com/@cynthia.marinakos/your-abusive-relationship-isnt-your-fault-96ac430e7f82

If valve doesn't even make the default fov 90 after 12 years how can we expect them to make this game an esport

If Valve wanted to make tf2 an actual esport the fov would be locked to 70 to prevent people getting unfair advantages

why do people always say this as if the community literally wants just prizepools

no

I want someone to give enough of a shit that they bother to change the maps in their ranked, like that's my start point. the part where they make an actual attempt to match even 1% of the enthusiasm

don't forget that ranked matchmaking took them like a year+ and then didn't even satisfy the basic requirements of a ranked system. TF2s ranked was one of the worst implementations of ranked matchmaking ever seen in any popular game.
I would like them to have not have to spend over 2 years getting ranked matchmaking to the point where it is actually even ranked.

the competitive queue was not made by a company who wants to support the scene at all. it is the one tangible thing (oops forgot when they nerfed the parachute!) they have ever contributed to the competitive community, it was shambolic, they fucked it up beyond plausible belief to the point where I genuinely think it was deliberate, and now they can't even be bothered to even attempt to revitalise their queue by changing the maps up or just adding a contract that says 'win x competitive matches' to try and get a couple more people to try it, both things are not exactly massive tasks that would add value to the pubber side and help funnel more people in our direction.

I know you're as old school as I am, so you probably also remember the times when quotes from the tf2 team were (and still are occasionally) used on pretty much every tf2 board to dismiss the 6v6 scene as not proper tf2, a sentiment which continues to this day.
Did you feel that valve was supportive back then? What changed since then that makes you feel that way now? I know you've interacted with the tf2 team before so I'm genuinely asking.

yea it should but it will never get attention from valve again just keep playing

If Valve would like TF2 to be a viable and successful esport, and don't want to force the community to do or like certain things, why on the release of their MM system did it not follow the established rules laid down by the community.

man i cannot understand what kind of person would look at a pub, and then look at an esea grand finals, and then be like ahh fuck it i like the pub

"lets design the game around th epub"