metalworks needs to go

it's the only map that can give 12 people an aneurysm at the same time

Bring back Standin and make the casters all hate you.

Or do something even worse like Haunt or Canalzone. Seriously if one of those maps ever shows up in ESEA, I'm done casting. Finito.

Edit: Actually, you know what? Standin might not be nearly as bad to cast with the player outline plugin. HMMMM.

- cp_edifice OR cp_gravelpit (Edifice deserves some love -- it's a good map!)
- cp_process (Literally my favorite *6s* map, I must see it.)
- cp_metalworks (Over cp_warmfront, Warmfront is... bleugh.)
- koth_ashville (Over koth_viaduct_pro, kind of gotten tired of Viaduct recently.)

Just my personal thoughts.

Are you kidding me? If we want TF2 to grow, we have to take into account the spectators. Gravel Pit was one of the funnest maps to watch; and look what it brought us this season! It's nothing like the other 5cp maps. Teams have to truly prepare for Gravel Pit to win it; this is not a map the higher teams will always just roll on. The great variation of strategies makes it one of the most entertaining maps to watch. Yeah, sure, the players don't think its orthodox. But it wouldn't be so entertaining to watch if it was.

There is no suitable replacement for Gravel Pit, unless you truly want yet another 5cp map in it.

gravelpit isnt bad, its just different from the norm
IMO

I like to think of these maps as a tier system where we can rate maps appropriately.

Top Tier: These will be staples for seasons to come
Badlands
Process
Granary

Good Maps: These are the solid options we have that probably won't be going away anytime soon
Snakewater
Metalworks
Gullywash

OK Maps: These are good for playing in a season, but could be beaten out by better new maps. These can be rotated out from season to season.
Viaduct
Gravel Pit

Possible replacements:
Yukon - Mid and 2nd are pretty good, and maybe last won't be as bad as it used to be with newer playstyles. Teams have gotten better so it's possible that we'll be able to attack it easier. I always hated playing it when it was in play years ago, but I'd be willing to give it another chance.

Edifice - This is a new map that I got a chance to play in the new map pugs. It seems to be a solid option with both A and B being equally defensible. It seemed to be really quick to me with almost every round being about 3 minutes or less, but that may have been a problem with the pug format instead of actual teams playing.

Koth_Ashville - I'm not entirely sure why this was removed in the first place, other than people not liking the KotH format in general. It would be a good option if we don't experiment with anything else.

Warmfront - The middle point is excellent, but everything after middle is a grind and hard to push on. We really don't need to relive all of the stalemates that everyone hates about other maps.

Other options: I don't know these maps as well, but I thought they could be included just as possibilities for others to think about.
Quay
Vanguard
Wetcoal
Freight
Standin

Personally, I'd like to see Edifice in place of Gravel Pit, or keep the same rotation. Metalworks seems like it works very well, and the changes Scorpio has already made improve it even more. It at least deserves another season.

Maybe Im like completly retarded, but what is wrong with Viaduct? In all the PUGs I've played, our UGC match, and anywhere else, it is always very fun to play. Im just not seeing why you would remove it.

please no. I cant handle the trains and water strats. Its not a good map

keep metalworks i love this map

add koth_ashville

play medic

we should keep gpit @ week 8 every season. teams fighting for playoff spots on an intense as fuck map

So basically there are no quality maps to replace Viaduct, Gpit, or possibly Metalworks is what this thread is telling me. I like all 3 of those maps just fine enough, so really, Im voting no change unless someone convinces me Standin is better then any of those 3, I kinda like Standin.

I agree

this is a great idea

As for replacing gravelpit with edifice. why? its pretty much just a copy of gravelpit with different textures.

As for overall map list, all the maps were decent, except warmfront should be added back in. best mid fight ever.

I don't think putting "upset map example #1" as the play-off decider is a good idea or fun for anyone. I don't see how having an upset map in the rotation is good at all honestly, gpit has been voted out before and it has clearly over stayed its welcome. TF2 spectator growth as an argument for keeping it in is beyond ridiculous as I'm fairly certain stream viewership does not rest solely upon map rotation in nearly any way.

I've also never been one to think "variety" is a good reason for multiple game modes being poorly executed in a map list either.

Would this have anything to do with both your losses this season coming from gpit?

Vanguard edifice and quay in, gravelpit and metalworks out

Let's be honest, mad men won im grand finals in under 20 minutes. I doubt they're particularly bitter about gpit week, and even if they are it's probably pretty fucking reasonable because losing on that map when you literally crush every other team in the league on any 5cp is indicative of something being seriously wrong

What? Three maps in two out? Anyways, I don't want to have a map that has been tested in a few pugs and not by established team. Metalworks actually was tested by teams but Vanguard, Edifice, and Quay have all only been tested in pugs. They're almost confirmed to be shit.

Who the fuck just won IM by sandbagging bitch, get yo facts straight next season we have our eyes on open.

what? the teams fighting for the last playoff spots will be pretty close to equal in skill so it wouldn't be an upset either way...

i think mike's idea of a cumulative stopwatch is a good idea, however i have no idea how that would/if it could be implemented. the map has its flaws but seeing teams different approaches to taking B is interesting.

Even amongst closely matched teams gpit can be a fucking headache. Pardon the anecdotal evidence, but in season 9 spacemoney got crushed on gpit by pinball wizards and then literally after that match ended had to play viper on it and won 2-1. I'd drag up clockwork's post about gpit being designed for 12v12 and at a fundamental level being bad for 6s in a competitive format but I think it's already well understood that gpit is a radical change from the rest of the season's maps and for no very particularly strong reason. It's a map where you can stonewall a team on B for 10 minutes one round, and then the next get your med picked by an opening bomb and lose in under 3 minutes the next. For as much as people defend heavy on last as being "necessary for teams that wipe at mid", I'm amazed that gpit gets so much defense when it is essentially "they made a pick, round over"

On a serious note, if you want to know what other maps I think should go, Granary is another map that I think is terrible. and hey look, we won both those maps!

don't really care how it gets put in, but please put in KOTH_ashville

I dunno. I kind of liked watching cp_standin in both 6s and HL. The only real problem is that when you divide parties between two points, it's up to Lady Luck whether or not you get a free point or a better group matchup, and just dedicating the whole team to one point is dicey since you give up the other two for free. It's interesting to watch because there's no other map out like it, but it's so wonky and rounds can be won by coinflip splitting of forces, leading to really dumb upsets.

Personally, I would like to see edifice replace gpit for the season, and two other maps switched out for maps that haven't been seen in ESEA for a while (ie cp_yukon, koth_ashville, and the like). However, that would probably piss off 90% of the TF2 ESEA teams across all divs to have to spend half of the regular season learning new maps/revisiting maps once thought to be dead and buried and making strats in a matter of weeks, which is most likely why there's usually only one new map in a regular season.

I will also note that I'm speaking from a spectator's point of view, and only putting out my two cents if "entertaining to watch" is a valid method of season map selection. It's just kinda boring to watch gpit since p. much everything that could be done on the map has been done at some point.

Yessssssssss
Not sure why I got -fragged for saying that granary is terrible. It really is.
Listen to rr! To reason!!

granary is really terrible
i would rather play viaduct than granary

Edifice is almost certainly a step up from gravelpit, and playing the same 5cp maps is stale. I'm suggesting swapping one of the less-loved 5cp maps for one of those two.

its not badlands

.