https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389102232747900929/746811319214407720/high_update_rate_exploit.mp4

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389102232747900929/746811333248286791/normal_update_rate.mp4

300 FPS videos, so I can't upload to YouTube.

Notice the higher ping when using the update rate exploit, and also tell me if you can even see a difference between the two projectile spawns. The crosshair turns blue when I press mouse 1.

Anyways, someone was talking about how interp was ping. It's not. It's a client side delay, and doesn't delay what you send to the server, like actual ping does. The update rate exploit increases ping, which actually delays what you send.

When someone long ago told me about the benefits of this for jumping, he had tested on a local server, and I had assumed he was right without testing further. On a networked server, it's different. Furthermore, due to clientside prediction, the supposed benefits of reducing interp past the game simulation rate are even less to non existent, with all the downsides and more still being there.

Whatever you thought was happening, it was either placebo or parroted from someone else. And you insulted another human being because of it, for practically no reason.

cool

Thank you mastercoms, you are unironically my hero!

Thank you mastercoms, you are unironically my hero! /s
pls dont downvote me guys xd

y hasnt this guy been banned yet

Because I am saviour to this community and for your information, I was banned!!!!! Now that's what I call owning with facts

here are two vidoes of people who used 0 lerp on jump servers. both were players who consistently get 5 ping to their jump servers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbnZk_U0cLM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIY1y3JZ9-o

I recorded two videos of myself dicking around on a ny server where i get 5 ping with 15.2 lerp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ge3mR5NlAw&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxGykHZK1kA&feature=youtu.be

it is very easy to tell the difference between these two videos, most of the time in my videos you cant see my stickies while in the air and if you can its for a very small window of time. In the two example videos the stickies are A LOT easier to see which makes airpogo easier. I don't know what you mean when you say that there are no benefits to jumping, there is an actual noticeable difference between the two which does change how easy it is to demojump.

https://i.imgur.com/yChlNSx.png

The player speeds or angles aren't even consistent in the videos, which is super important when your entire premise of argument is based on visual positions (hint: you might be shooting your sticky at a different angle and speed than what you're travelling at). This is especially important when you're talking about a change in time which could be at most 15.2ms. Please let me know when you've done me the same favor of preparing specific test cases as I have done for you.

Your "specific test cases" consist of shooting pipes at a wall in itemtest. You have made absolutely zero attempt to argue in good faith, and you're acting as though a well understood and commonly used trick is "just a placebo" because you personally don't understand it (despite making zero effort to do so!).

Here's your sanitized testcase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lih1aNxDaE

It's a very real difference and you're making yourself look like an idiot to a very large group of people.

I don't want to demean the work you are doing but there is nothing to argue here, whatever you want to call it placebo, exploit, etc, there were people happy using it because they felt the difference. You don't feel the difference because, for x,y,z reasons that aren't important and neither does your detailed white paper offer an explanation for this difference in feeling. Kaptain, reero, and countless other players who have been playing this game forever preferred that feeling at times and it wasn't unfair or hurting anyone at all. Its the same as a pubber wanting to use all default 75 fov, 100ms lerp, etc (its a choice). You just took that choice away is all, and not for a good reason at all. I am afraid you are just making yourself look retarded trying to justify it.

Again you are just stting in itemtest shooting pipes, why dont you try running some t6 demo maps with some air pogo action and then make a case for yourself.

"So what if its placebo, people liked the placebo!"
"Pubbers actively choose bad net settings!"
"The only way I'll listen to you is if ur a tier 6 demo jumper!"

^end of story

https://i.imgur.com/42z6as4.jpg

waldo made his lerp 500 on a tempus server, note the ping on net graph!!

guys we did it we solved ping! use 500 lerp

Despite every effort to not engage in the same personal attacks, and to just talk about analyzing this situation, I'm the one not acting in good faith? You didn't even respond to what my itemtest videos are designed to show: that the projectiles have no difference in spawn delay or position. You can trivialize it all you want, but why can't you walk me through why that's happening and then how it's magically spawning with less delay and/or a different position while blast jumping?

I'm not at my PC so I'll look into and respond to that video you posted later tonight or tomorrow when I have time.

Also, about the claim that it doesn't affect anyone else: I have heard reports from people that it does but I haven't looked into it myself. I will soon once I figure out a good test case for it.

As for the image reero posted above about lowering ping, note the cmdrate also changed to 30 due to sv_client_cmdrate_difference 20, which affects the ping calculation. Has nothing to do with lerp.

personally i think it's good that this got removed but claiming it makes no difference to jumping (specifically airpogo) online is just simply wrong and i dont know why you'd try and double down on a topic you have no knowledge of

I'm not sure if I have no knowledge of this topic. Sure, I haven't jumped and I do value that experience. But I'm pretty sure I do have some experience with how TF2 works (even to the point where I sent the code for this fix). Since I've seen how powerful placebo can be, I just want things to be proven through analysis and isolated test scenarios which demonstrate the exact system that causes something. I'm not sure why certain people here are constantly insulting me for continuing this discussion, but these insults are definitely making what could have been a discussion to get better understanding of the game for everyone involved into something quite unpleasant.

I really want to call out this behavior because this is what drives away modders and makes people want to stop associating with the tf2 community. Someone tries to help the community at large, and gets met with one step away from direct insults. Someone tries to get a better understanding of how things work, but because it's not in-line with how things have always been done, they get met with hostility. Someone (with a track record of saying conventional settings are actually harmful or mostly placebo, considering how many launch options people would swear by that turned out to not actually exist in the first place) says a conventional setting may actually be harmful or mostly placebo, and then gets jumped on with "no you're wrong, I don't know any more than that and don't want you to look into it more, but you're wrong" instead of any useful conversation.

Like okay, you think mastercoms is wrong and you have a testcase that seems to show differently for whatever reason (if projectiles appear the same in mastercoms' testcases, perhaps the difference is in player movement?). What's hard about saying "hey what about x testcase, this shows a difference and seems inconsistent with your other test case, perhaps there's more to it" instead of "stop arguing in bad faith, here is a different testcase with no further elaboration or exploration, you should stop making yourself look like an idiot".

Mastercoms is going through everyone's testcases trying to figure out what's different, trying to develop new testcases to isolate variables, reading the sourcecode to try and determine any potential causes of discrepancies, and genuinely trying to further the understanding of the game. And if she's wrong, cool, we will all have delved deeper into understanding the source engine and collectively know more. Arguing with "hey nope, you're wrong, stop trying to figure things out" is the least constructive approach to take.

Like is it so hard to just

It's the visual, rather than the networking effect that people are using for airpogo. It's not that the stickies are actually spawning and detonating earlier, it's that you're able to see them doing so which means it's easier to time them, even with the tradeoff of potentially worse networking. I can see how this would be annoying if you're used to it, but tbh I didn't even know it was a thing, I can't always see the projectiles I'm firing at walking speed lmao.

Immediately discarding reero's video, calling everything a placebo, and immediately doubling down when contested were all very much not "trying to figure things out." I don't doubt that mastercoms has a very good understanding of how the game works, but in this case she was wrong and it's massively harmful for a trusted community figure to double down on something that's simply incorrect.

In this case the result of playing with zero lerp was well known by the jumping community for a long time, regardless of how well understood the mechanism was. I'm only trying to make very clear that there is a real benefit to sub-15.2ms lerp.

The patch is not necessarily a bad thing; it would be strictly better to have servers run a higher sv_maxupdaterate than to rely on the exploit- this seems to fix some of the jitter from the exploit. However, it's important that we respond to this patch by doing that instead of just leaving the default.

It's worth figuring out what the actual downsides to very high sv_maxupdaterate settings are; sub-1ms lerp requires around 15x the default so it's worth checking that it doesn't harmfully increase server load or allow for any funny hitreg sillyness.

I disputed Reero's video and not yours for a reason. I even politely asked for a new video, rather than insulting the person who posted it and suggesting they quit the discussion by being insulting and rude (like many including you have done to me). Yours is much more consistent, and shows that there is a case I need to investigate further to better understand this. Don't mistake me being strict about proof meaning that I don't want to learn. What I want to understand are why the projectiles are the same when I'm standing still, but they seem to be different in your video, and this is what I wanted to investigate in my free time once I got on my PC. It's probably something with movement like JarateKing said, and given that movement is supposed to be predicted, it may be even a bug I can then fix and send to Valve again.

imagine knowing or caring about network settings
ping under 140? play game
LOL

and people wonder why those who contribute to tf2 have and continue to jump ship

Jumper mains are just pissed that they lose to some Ukrainian furry. Please forgive them.

the shit said in this thread is extremely tame lol

I think there is a lot of valid frustration from ppl here because in your initial post at the top of this page you say:

Not only did you misunderstand the essential reason that people use this (the visual delay of projectiles), but you continued to adamantly argue that you're correct about this from a position of authority despite not being correct. Jumpers have known about this trick for ages and when I show you an applied example of why your initial claim was incorrect you dismissed it because they weren't in a vacuum. People who jump know that airpogo can only work in a tight range of speeds and angles in the first place (and this is honestly self evident if you watch the videos, they have speedometers in the center of the screen and stay between 860-920u/s for the majority of the videos); the fact that waldo had to make another test case instead of you just trusting the combined thousands of hours spent jumping in this thread shows a bit of a disconnect between people that are devs (or people who contributed to this update in this case) and the people who actually play the game. Your post @#69 in particular also came of as quite condescending to someone who put in effort to try to add to the discussion.

I said that in a lapse of frustration after being called "idiot, moron, dumbass, retard" among other things, with practically 5 people yelling at me while I continued on the topic. I didn't mean to discount decades of combined jumper experience and if it came across that way, I am sorry. But please do respect me and my experience as a developer. Only through mutual respect can this discussion work. I don't mean to call into question the experiences you've had but ultimately only better understand them through these tests. I'm also sorry if you feel put on trial for something that you feel to be self evident, but please do understand I did present counterpoints which remain unaddressed and ignored, while I have spent the time to create tests and respond to concerns. Furthermore, I don't see any remorse from you two as to what you did, and you're continuing aggressive assertions against me, as if you all are so pure.

What is non visual about my video? I was trying to demonstrate that when I click, there is no difference as to when or where the projectiles themselves visually appear. If you can refute that, please do so but I don't think I have misunderstood the situation, just have tackled it from a different angle which may shine new light on what's actually going on.

As for the speeds, I saw that your speedometer was commonly above 1000 while theirs was around 890 to 920 as you said. I don't intend for pointing this out to be offensive. I just want this to be as exact as possible so we can get rid of the noise and clearly identify what's at play here. It's not a slight on anyone here to want these scenarios and I understand that while it can be demeaning to not trust people outright, that goes both ways and furthermore, only hard evidence can truly get us somewhere else.

I can't speak for anyone else in the thread but I'm sorry if I came off as an asshole but I really didn't think anything i typed would be taken as offensive. Maybe the "thanks mastercoms" or the dumb picture i linked were rude but the first part was also typed out of frustration and the second was more of a joke.

The issue I had with the post #61 is that you instantly chalked up the trick to "placebo" or hearsay (specifically mentioning in regards to jumping) without properly accounting for all the variables yourself. You, as acting as an authority on the game's workings, made a very confident statement and used insufficient evidence to backup your claim, as Waldo's video 100% refuted it. Maybe there is some blame to fall on my side of the argument as I assumed that it was common knowledge that the benefits of the exploit are only really noticeable when you're moving, but that is what I attempted to show in my videos.

I will admit that maybe the evidence I provided you was not 100% substantial from a technical standpoint but I will still stand by my point that if i was doing those same exact inputs with lower lerp I would be able to see my stickies better, https://youtu.be/4ge3mR5NlAw?t=8 (last 2 pairs) is an example where i am certain I would see my stickies better here.

dude what the fuck is this 5 page argument

0 lerp is obviously beneficial for demo jumpers, if you think otherwise you are wrong

internet go brrrr

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz