With that out of the way please read the following as my one selfish request of the community.
Although I wished to be leaving with smiles and waves, instead I’m leaving saddened. I’m not leaving due to my passion for TF2 and the community having died out. Nor is it due to me having achieved a specific goal or lack of time. I’m leaving disappointed within the community due to its ever growing immature behavior as well as my own inability to steer it in the right direction. I feel like spending the amount of time that I do is not worth it, as it only brings me stress and sadness.
I joined staff back in 2015 with the idea of contributing to a community that I loved with all my heart. I had found a passion that I truly cared about. Over the years, I have only felt myself get pushed out of the community that I cared for while being berated for trying my hardest. Spending countless hours making tournaments, resolving conflicts, helping new players and much more, only to be called incompetent and lazy.
This community has taken the stance that consistently insulting its contributors is acceptable behaviour, even going so far as making personal attacks until they effectively bully out the very people that keep this community alive.
I have seen a lot of people with passion and love get pushed away by this community just for trying to contribute.
I hope that this self destructive behavior within this community can one day change for the better. I hope that the community will reflect on this, and that in the future, players will treat both each other and community contributors with greater kindness and respect
Although I wished to be leaving with smiles and waves, instead I’m leaving saddened. I’m not leaving due to my passion for TF2 and the community having died out. Nor is it due to me having achieved a specific goal or lack of time. I’m leaving disappointed within the community due to its ever growing immature behavior as well as my own inability to steer it in the right direction. I feel like spending the amount of time that I do is not worth it, as it only brings me stress and sadness.
I joined staff back in 2015 with the idea of contributing to a community that I loved with all my heart. I had found a passion that I truly cared about. Over the years, I have only felt myself get pushed out of the community that I cared for while being berated for trying my hardest. Spending countless hours making tournaments, resolving conflicts, helping new players and much more, only to be called incompetent and lazy.
[b]
This community has taken the stance that consistently insulting its contributors is acceptable behaviour, even going so far as making personal attacks until they effectively bully out the very people that keep this community alive.
[/b]
I have seen a lot of people with passion and love get pushed away by this community just for trying to contribute.
I hope that this self destructive behavior within this community can one day change for the better. I hope that the community will reflect on this, and that in the future, players will treat both each other and community contributors with greater kindness and respect
[/quote]
Rebitequote
i agree we should stick to bullying just pedophiles instead
i agree we should stick to bullying just pedophiles instead
Sorry to hijack Aoshi's exit, for them, thank you for all your work, and I hope that whatever comes next for you treats you well, o7.
But, I did want to highlight rebite's quote. The absolute disregard for production and casters that people put out is absolutely shameful. People at every point entirely disregarding that both casters and production give their time for the community is so fucking selfish.
No one wants to imagine a #cov-eu where DuMmTm steps down, or where Arch and Beater refuse to produce. So for prem players, cooperate with us when you can, and EU, recognize what people do for you in casts, NA had louster200 leave and almost completely kill coverage, appreciate and thank the people who give their time for you, it does mean a lot.
But, I did want to highlight rebite's quote. The absolute disregard for production and casters that people put out is absolutely shameful. People at every point entirely disregarding that both casters and production give their time for the community is so fucking selfish.
No one wants to imagine a #cov-eu where DuMmTm steps down, or where Arch and Beater refuse to produce. So for prem players, cooperate with us when you can, and EU, recognize what people do for you in casts, NA had louster200 leave and almost completely kill coverage, appreciate and thank the people who give their time for you, it does mean a lot.
ireSorry to hijack Aoshi's exit, for them, thank you for all your work, and I hope that whatever comes next for you treats you well, o7.
But, I did want to highlight rebite's quote. The absolute disregard for production and casters that people put out is absolutely shameful. People at every point entirely disregarding that both casters and production give their time for the community is so fucking selfish.
No one wants to imagine a #cov-eu where DuMmTm steps down, or where Arch and Beater refuse to produce. So for prem players, cooperate with us when you can, and EU, recognize what people do for you in casts, NA had louster200 leave and almost completely kill coverage, appreciate and thank the people who give their time for you, it does mean a lot.
you just have to make everything about you do you?
let the man have his moment you skinny nerd
But, I did want to highlight rebite's quote. The absolute disregard for production and casters that people put out is absolutely shameful. People at every point entirely disregarding that both casters and production give their time for the community is so fucking selfish.
No one wants to imagine a #cov-eu where DuMmTm steps down, or where Arch and Beater refuse to produce. So for prem players, cooperate with us when you can, and EU, recognize what people do for you in casts, NA had louster200 leave and almost completely kill coverage, appreciate and thank the people who give their time for you, it does mean a lot.[/quote]
you just have to make everything about you do you?
let the man have his moment you skinny nerd
sco_ireSorry to hijack Aoshi's exit, for them, thank you for all your work, and I hope that whatever comes next for you treats you well, o7.
But, I did want to highlight rebite's quote. The absolute disregard for production and casters that people put out is absolutely shameful. People at every point entirely disregarding that both casters and production give their time for the community is so fucking selfish.
No one wants to imagine a #cov-eu where DuMmTm steps down, or where Arch and Beater refuse to produce. So for prem players, cooperate with us when you can, and EU, recognize what people do for you in casts, NA had louster200 leave and almost completely kill coverage, appreciate and thank the people who give their time for you, it does mean a lot.
you just have to make everything about you do you?
let the man have his moment you skinny nerd
hey man i think u need one of these
But, I did want to highlight rebite's quote. The absolute disregard for production and casters that people put out is absolutely shameful. People at every point entirely disregarding that both casters and production give their time for the community is so fucking selfish.
No one wants to imagine a #cov-eu where DuMmTm steps down, or where Arch and Beater refuse to produce. So for prem players, cooperate with us when you can, and EU, recognize what people do for you in casts, NA had louster200 leave and almost completely kill coverage, appreciate and thank the people who give their time for you, it does mean a lot.[/quote]
you just have to make everything about you do you?
let the man have his moment you skinny nerd[/quote]
hey man i think u need one of these
[img]https://posterstore.dk/images/zoom/7-4069.jpg[/img]
merci Aoshi voor alles, mss kan je nu weer spellekes spelen opt gemak :D
ireSorry to hijack Aoshi's exit, for them, thank you for all your work, and I hope that whatever comes next for you treats you well, o7.
But, I did want to highlight rebite's quote. The absolute disregard for production and casters that people put out is absolutely shameful. People at every point entirely disregarding that both casters and production give their time for the community is so fucking selfish.
No one wants to imagine a #cov-eu where DuMmTm steps down, or where Arch and Beater refuse to produce. So for prem players, cooperate with us when you can, and EU, recognize what people do for you in casts, NA had louster200 leave and almost completely kill coverage, appreciate and thank the people who give their time for you, it does mean a lot.
Whilst I do appreciate what etf2l admins and tftv streaming staff do for the EU scene and I also call out people who immaturely bad mouth some of the hard workers, noone who takes on these positions should ever feel forced to. Any admin or caster or streamer or anything is a volunteer and if you aren't enjoying it, don't do it. Get a hobby you enjoy. Someone who wants to take over should, not someone who feels forced to.
I get the feeling from quite a few people that they don't enjoy being in the public eye from most of the immature people who play the game, but i still don't know why they do it.
This is also fixed by people not being stupid cunts, but that is more of an entire humanity thing rather than just this community.
But, I did want to highlight rebite's quote. The absolute disregard for production and casters that people put out is absolutely shameful. People at every point entirely disregarding that both casters and production give their time for the community is so fucking selfish.
No one wants to imagine a #cov-eu where DuMmTm steps down, or where Arch and Beater refuse to produce. So for prem players, cooperate with us when you can, and EU, recognize what people do for you in casts, NA had louster200 leave and almost completely kill coverage, appreciate and thank the people who give their time for you, it does mean a lot.[/quote]
Whilst I do appreciate what etf2l admins and tftv streaming staff do for the EU scene and I also call out people who immaturely bad mouth some of the hard workers, noone who takes on these positions should ever feel forced to. Any admin or caster or streamer or anything is a volunteer and if you aren't enjoying it, don't do it. Get a hobby you enjoy. Someone who wants to take over should, not someone who feels forced to.
I get the feeling from quite a few people that they don't enjoy being in the public eye from most of the immature people who play the game, but i still don't know why they do it.
This is also fixed by people not being stupid cunts, but that is more of an entire humanity thing rather than just this community.
DoughyireSorry to hijack Aoshi's exit, for them, thank you for all your work, and I hope that whatever comes next for you treats you well, o7.
But, I did want to highlight rebite's quote. The absolute disregard for production and casters that people put out is absolutely shameful. People at every point entirely disregarding that both casters and production give their time for the community is so fucking selfish.
No one wants to imagine a #cov-eu where DuMmTm steps down, or where Arch and Beater refuse to produce. So for prem players, cooperate with us when you can, and EU, recognize what people do for you in casts, NA had louster200 leave and almost completely kill coverage, appreciate and thank the people who give their time for you, it does mean a lot.
Whilst I do appreciate what etf2l admins and tftv streaming staff do for the EU scene and I also call out people who immaturely bad mouth some of the hard workers, noone who takes on these positions should ever feel forced to. Any admin or caster or streamer or anything is a volunteer and if you aren't enjoying it, don't do it. Get a hobby you enjoy. Someone who wants to take over should, not someone who feels forced to.
I get the feeling from quite a few people that they don't enjoy being in the public eye from most of the immature people who play the game, but i still don't know why they do it.
This is also fixed by people not being stupid cunts, but that is more of an entire humanity thing rather than just this community.
The issue with telling ire that "if you aren't enjoying it, don't do it" is that he's currently the Editor in Chief of all writing regions and also currently the head of NA production. Without ire NA production would fall apart and so would a lot of NA/Asia writing. I wouldn't be surprised if ire feels obligated to continue what he does.
But, I did want to highlight rebite's quote. The absolute disregard for production and casters that people put out is absolutely shameful. People at every point entirely disregarding that both casters and production give their time for the community is so fucking selfish.
No one wants to imagine a #cov-eu where DuMmTm steps down, or where Arch and Beater refuse to produce. So for prem players, cooperate with us when you can, and EU, recognize what people do for you in casts, NA had louster200 leave and almost completely kill coverage, appreciate and thank the people who give their time for you, it does mean a lot.[/quote]
Whilst I do appreciate what etf2l admins and tftv streaming staff do for the EU scene and I also call out people who immaturely bad mouth some of the hard workers, noone who takes on these positions should ever feel forced to. Any admin or caster or streamer or anything is a volunteer and if you aren't enjoying it, don't do it. Get a hobby you enjoy. Someone who wants to take over should, not someone who feels forced to.
I get the feeling from quite a few people that they don't enjoy being in the public eye from most of the immature people who play the game, but i still don't know why they do it.
This is also fixed by people not being stupid cunts, but that is more of an entire humanity thing rather than just this community.[/quote]
The issue with telling ire that "if you aren't enjoying it, don't do it" is that he's currently the Editor in Chief of all writing regions and also currently the head of NA production. Without ire NA production would fall apart and so would a lot of NA/Asia writing. I wouldn't be surprised if ire feels obligated to continue what he does.
Yeah the problem with "don't do it if you don't want to, nobody is forcing you" is that there's barely anyone that wants to do it in the first place or has the experience to easily take over a crucial role.
i agree that people shouldnt feel obligated to continue volunteering if they're burnt out but let's actually work on the problem rather than saying "its just how things are if they dont like it they should quit" and continuing this cycle of volunteers getting burnt out and having their mental health take a dive because of this shit. we only have so many people unwise enough to volunteer in this scene left, after all.
If Ire stopped doing most of the NA management then the public face (streaming/writing) would be greatly affected until someone else takes over. If noone does take over then it will remain permanently haemorrhaged.This isn't a problem, it is just how it is. The only problem is staff members mindset that makes them think it is one. As a player I cannot expect people to do the amount of work they do for free, but they choose to, which is insane to me.
I kinda like how aoshi called out a lot of bad behaviour, but I also don't. To me it seems like it is something the community needs to hear, but I also think the staff members should be mature enough themselves to move past the hate.
It feels like the staff members are instead of doing what will make them happy, are trying to keep a dieing game alive desperately thinking they are the only ones who can save it, blaming the community for either their own shortcomings or natural progression.
I kinda like how aoshi called out a lot of bad behaviour, but I also don't. To me it seems like it is something the community needs to hear, but I also think the staff members should be mature enough themselves to move past the hate.
It feels like the staff members are instead of doing what will make them happy, are trying to keep a dieing game alive desperately thinking they are the only ones who can save it, blaming the community for either their own shortcomings or natural progression.
As someone admining for a relatively small org, managing anything is fucking hard and so is keeping motivation up to do it. There's always gonna be someone that puts down your efforts and this is especially the case when your work is public. I have the luxury of having most of my projects be behind the scenes, but anyone in production doesn't have that. Any work they put directly contributes to what everyone will absorb and when you put in a lot of work to get nothing or something bad back, it fucking sucks.
I have immense respect for everyone in production, especially those who have dedicated so much of their free time to contribute to this community because they're forced to take a lot of shit to do something they love.
Just don't be an asshole if you see work put in for volunteer work. You can dislike its quality, but at the end of the day there is someone trying to improve at what they do and putting them down will keep them from wanting to keep the ball rolling. And if you like the content, support it. Share it to people and give constructive feedback. It feels good to be appreciated for time put in and this shows it.
I have immense respect for everyone in production, especially those who have dedicated so much of their free time to contribute to this community because they're forced to take a lot of shit to do something they love.
Just don't be an asshole if you see work put in for volunteer work. You can dislike its quality, but at the end of the day there is someone trying to improve at what they do and putting them down will keep them from wanting to keep the ball rolling. And if you like the content, support it. Share it to people and give constructive feedback. It feels good to be appreciated for time put in and this shows it.
most people volunteering for this game arent really doing it to "grow" tf2 but rather out of passion. some people grind dm, mge 24/7 and map talk like fuck to get to prem and some cast, produce, set up cups and run leagues. most people who quit tend to leave it to someone who is capable to run X, Y or Z and not turn into what doughy is describing.
i can only speak as a very inept caster and sorta for casting (very low effort compared to producing) that if you dont enjoy what youre doing and on top of that "hate" you will get just makes you grow colder towards this video game. burn out is pretty bad especially for something you are passionate about but there's a time where you just need to let go. think this was me just rambling about how i felt (see: making this about you above (big ego))
i can only speak as a very inept caster and sorta for casting (very low effort compared to producing) that if you dont enjoy what youre doing and on top of that "hate" you will get just makes you grow colder towards this video game. burn out is pretty bad especially for something you are passionate about but there's a time where you just need to let go. think this was me just rambling about how i felt (see: making this about you above (big ego))
But Aoshi said hes leaving essentially because people are abusive for no reason? Might be a misinterpretation by me but that sounds like he probably still wanted to do this job but could no longer do with the bullshit?
The argument of saying "if you dont enjoy something, dont do it" doesnt really fit in this case to me.
Also, to expect someone to be mature enough to get past tonnes of hate is not really fair. Yes, as an adult you should be able to cope with a comment here or there but I couldn't imagine getting 100's for years.
Also, you don't get to tell someone how they're supposed to feel and cope, if they cant do with the hate then its not on you to criticise them for their feelings or ability to handle problems just because you're able to do so - not even therapists do that.
The argument of saying "if you dont enjoy something, dont do it" doesnt really fit in this case to me.
Also, to expect someone to be mature enough to get past tonnes of hate is not really fair. Yes, as an adult you should be able to cope with a comment here or there but I couldn't imagine getting 100's for years.
Also, you don't get to tell someone how they're supposed to feel and cope, if they cant do with the hate then its not on you to criticise them for their feelings or ability to handle problems just because you're able to do so - not even therapists do that.
tonyJust don't be an asshole if you see work put in for volunteer work. You can dislike its quality, but at the end of the day there is someone trying to improve at what they do and putting them down will keep them from wanting to keep the ball rolling. And if you like the content, support it. Share it to people and give constructive feedback. It feels good to be appreciated for time put in and this shows it.
A lot of people (not necessarily saying league/tftv staff think this way, just in general) view any criticism as being an asshole towards them. Is a very fine line. Also much constructive criticism is completely ignored, not even acknowledged, just ignored because of who it came from.
ShooshBut Aoshi said hes leaving essentially because people are abusive for no reason
Whilst I agree people are overly abusive, there is a reason, the admin team makes many mistakes (personally I disagree with well over half the decisions they make) and they don't own their mistakes, they don't follow their own rules to a T, have very low understanding in player skill level, allow friends to sandbag relentlessly season after season, pussyfoot around to try to appease both teams instead of supporting the team in the right.
The admin team is there to be the faceless organisation that referees players matches. In a competitive game where one team will have to be viewed more favourably for every quarrel that occurs, you will annoy half the people playing. It is inevitable. That is a simple problem with the competitive nature in games. Happens in all sports everywhere.
Shoosh Might be a misinterpretation by me but that sounds like he probably still wanted to do this job but could no longer do with the bullshit
It is a misinterpretation, since he could still do the job but just didn't want to. The BS wasn't preventing anything was just making it annoying for him to continue, I completely understand not wanting to do this job, it seems awful.
ShooshAlso, to expect someone to be mature enough to get past tonnes of hate is not really fair.
It is completely fair for anyone in any position of power to be expected to have a higher maturity level and be held to a higher standard than the rest of the population. This is true for any position in life. If they don't have that level, then they won't get the respect they need to reduce toxicity and abuse.
Shoosh Also, you don't get to tell someone how they're supposed to feel and cope, if they cant do with the hate then its not on you to criticise them for their feelings or ability to handle problems just because you're able to do so
Of course, but I didn't. Nor did I criticise them for not being able to handle it. I've said many times I don't know why they do it, I've always related things to how I think and what I feel from my outside perspective as someone who doesn't flame admins, but also doesn't partake in their own decisions. I know I wouldn't do it for the same reason many others wouldn't. Too much work for too little reward.
Shooshnot even therapists do that.
Plenty of therapists give advice on how to handle feelings. Most of them will ask how the person feels and get the person to actually know how they fell. They won't tell them it's right or wrong, but they will give advice on how to handle real life scenarios that make them feel in an undesirable way. This is what I did. I never ordered anyone to do anything, just gave some advice.
Hopefully I explained why everything in your comment was wrong shoosh.
A lot of people (not necessarily saying league/tftv staff think this way, just in general) view any criticism as being an asshole towards them. Is a very fine line. Also much constructive criticism is completely ignored, not even acknowledged, just ignored because of who it came from.
[quote=Shoosh]But Aoshi said hes leaving essentially because people are abusive for no reason [/quote]
Whilst I agree people are overly abusive, there is a reason, the admin team makes many mistakes (personally I disagree with well over half the decisions they make) and they don't own their mistakes, they don't follow their own rules to a T, have very low understanding in player skill level, allow friends to sandbag relentlessly season after season, pussyfoot around to try to appease both teams instead of supporting the team in the right.
The admin team is there to be the faceless organisation that referees players matches. In a competitive game where one team will have to be viewed more favourably for every quarrel that occurs, you will annoy half the people playing. It is inevitable. That is a simple problem with the competitive nature in games. Happens in all sports everywhere.
[quote=Shoosh] Might be a misinterpretation by me but that sounds like he probably still wanted to do this job but could no longer do with the bullshit[/quote]
It is a misinterpretation, since he could still do the job but just didn't want to. The BS wasn't preventing anything was just making it annoying for him to continue, I completely understand not wanting to do this job, it seems awful.
[quote=Shoosh]Also, to expect someone to be mature enough to get past tonnes of hate is not really fair. [/quote]
It is completely fair for anyone in any position of power to be expected to have a higher maturity level and be held to a higher standard than the rest of the population. This is true for any position in life. If they don't have that level, then they won't get the respect they need to reduce toxicity and abuse.
[quote=Shoosh] Also, you don't get to tell someone how they're supposed to feel and cope, if they cant do with the hate then its not on you to criticise them for their feelings or ability to handle problems just because you're able to do so[/quote]
Of course, but I didn't. Nor did I criticise them for not being able to handle it. I've said many times I don't know why they do it, I've always related things to how I think and what I feel from my outside perspective as someone who doesn't flame admins, but also doesn't partake in their own decisions. I know I wouldn't do it for the same reason many others wouldn't. Too much work for too little reward.
[quote=Shoosh]not even therapists do that. [/quote]
Plenty of therapists give advice on how to handle feelings. Most of them will ask how the person feels and get the person to actually know how they fell. They won't tell them it's right or wrong, but they will give advice on how to handle real life scenarios that make them feel in an undesirable way. This is what I did. I never ordered anyone to do anything, just gave some advice.
Hopefully I explained why everything in your comment was wrong shoosh.
https://i.imgur.com/DTX50Tl.png
not saying berating organizers/administration is a good thing, but if you have the "Main Face of Organization in North American Team Fortress Two" acting like this in response to criticism I'm gonna have a hard time feeling bad for them.
not saying berating organizers/administration is a good thing, but if you have the "Main Face of Organization in North American Team Fortress Two" acting like this in response to criticism I'm gonna have a hard time feeling bad for them.
Reerohttps://i.imgur.com/DTX50Tl.png
not saying berating organizers/administration is a good thing, but if you have the "Main Face of Organization in North American Team Fortress Two" acting like this in response to criticism I'm gonna have a hard time feeling bad for them.
tbf half the time criticism is just a blanket "these admins are incompetent", which seems really bad faith as opposed to constructive
not saying berating organizers/administration is a good thing, but if you have the "Main Face of Organization in North American Team Fortress Two" acting like this in response to criticism I'm gonna have a hard time feeling bad for them.[/quote]
tbf half the time criticism is just a blanket "these admins are incompetent", which seems really bad faith as opposed to constructive
ireNA had louster200 leave and almost completely kill coverage, appreciate and thank the people who give their time for you, it does mean a lot.
It should be noted that, for louster, the anvil that broke the camel's back was getting BTFO by mustardoverlord. Hopefully our last producer(s?) won't be so dead wrong on an issue that they get horribly ratioed, and this can't be stressed enough, by mustardoverlord.
It should be noted that, for louster, the anvil that broke the camel's back was [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/58494/mal-players-banned-from-rgl/?page=3#81]getting BTFO[/url] [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/58494/mal-players-banned-from-rgl/?page=4#93]by mustardoverlord[/url]. Hopefully our last producer(s?) won't be so dead wrong on an issue that they get horribly ratioed, and this can't be stressed enough, by [i]mustardoverlord[/i].
StipeMiocicIt should be noted that, for louster, the anvil that broke the camel's back was getting BTFO by mustardoverlord.
pretty sure he emo'd out after alfa posted a screenshot of him calling chunkey a monkey in twitch chat after telling people not to say slurs lol, something something people in glass houses
It should be noted that, for louster, the anvil that broke the camel's back was [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/58494/mal-players-banned-from-rgl/?page=3#81]getting BTFO[/url] [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/58494/mal-players-banned-from-rgl/?page=4#93]by mustardoverlord[/url]. [/quote]
pretty sure he emo'd out after alfa posted a screenshot of him calling chunkey a monkey in twitch chat after telling people not to say slurs lol, something something people in glass houses
at a certain point you kinda have to ask how much a single guy can carry on his back before it breaks
ire and aoshi have both done more good for the scene than any of the stupid motherfuckers who keep dogpiling on the forums have or ever will do
its actually kind of insane to me that you keep shitting on ire 24/7 despite how hard he works and how much he still does for the scene when its very clear that it has a profound impact on him
grow the fuck up losers
ire and aoshi have both done more good for the scene than any of the stupid motherfuckers who keep dogpiling on the forums have or ever will do
its actually kind of insane to me that you keep shitting on ire 24/7 despite how hard he works and how much he still does for the scene when its very clear that it has a profound impact on him
grow the fuck up losers
SurnyYeah the problem with "don't do it if you don't want to, nobody is forcing you" is that there's barely anyone that wants to do it in the first place or has the experience to easily take over a crucial role.
The biggest thing i've noticed is on this part is
People say dont do it no one is forcing you
Person listens and steps down
New person doesn't do as well as old person because of lack of experience in the role or the role cant be properly filled
People say WTF why is new person so much worse than old person?
From my personal experience, when I was active casting people would ask for other casters instead of me because they viewed them to be better. Then I ultimately stopped casting but then returned to play on a team a year later, people would then ask me if I was going to come back casting because they perceived me to be better than the casters active at the time. Now, I didn't leave because of criticism, but it's definitely a pattern I've seen regularly.
The other pattern I've seen is that powers that be and talent can have their frustrations develop into an us (people working for the scene) vs them (people in the scene) mentality, or alternatively don't conduct themselves in an endearing way on the forum and can come off as pompous or condescending. An example being Ire, I don't think anyone dislikes the job he's doing running NA coverage (I am out of the loop so I could be off base on this, but from what I've seen he gets games casted and news posts out so something is going right) but comments like the one Reero posted in this thread certainly will sour the view of the community towards him, which in turn leads to increased levels of backlash.
TLDR
I guess if I'm trying to make a point, the ideal world would be:
community: keep the criticism on those contributing to the scene civil. Keep pushing them to be better and keep telling them how you think they can be better. You can still drive change, but don't call them a stupid motherfucker, and dont try to push them to leave the scene.
talent/staff: Listen to the criticism, dont be condescending, be professional, and for the love of god if someone doesn't like what you do or how you do something, dont tell them to shove it, dont tell them to go elsewhere or dont tell them to do it themselves.
The biggest thing i've noticed is on this part is
People say dont do it no one is forcing you
Person listens and steps down
New person doesn't do as well as old person because of lack of experience in the role or the role cant be properly filled
People say WTF why is new person so much worse than old person?
From my personal experience, when I was active casting people would ask for other casters instead of me because they viewed them to be better. Then I ultimately stopped casting but then returned to play on a team a year later, people would then ask me if I was going to come back casting because they perceived me to be better than the casters active at the time. Now, I didn't leave because of criticism, but it's definitely a pattern I've seen regularly.
The other pattern I've seen is that powers that be and talent can have their frustrations develop into an us (people working for the scene) vs them (people in the scene) mentality, or alternatively don't conduct themselves in an endearing way on the forum and can come off as pompous or condescending. An example being Ire, I don't think anyone dislikes the job he's doing running NA coverage (I am out of the loop so I could be off base on this, but from what I've seen he gets games casted and news posts out so something is going right) but comments like the one Reero posted in this thread certainly will sour the view of the community towards him, which in turn leads to increased levels of backlash.
TLDR
I guess if I'm trying to make a point, the ideal world would be:
community: keep the criticism on those contributing to the scene civil. Keep pushing them to be better and keep telling them how you think they can be better. You can still drive change, but don't call them a stupid motherfucker, and dont try to push them to leave the scene.
talent/staff: Listen to the criticism, dont be condescending, be professional, and for the love of god if someone doesn't like what you do or how you do something, dont tell them to shove it, dont tell them to go elsewhere or dont tell them to do it themselves.
It's still kinda beyond me how people in such a tiny scene exclusively built on volunteers working for free like comp TF2 can become so spoiled and ungrateful towards the very people who make it happen in the first place
DoughyA lot of people (not necessarily saying league/tftv staff think this way, just in general) view any criticism as being an asshole towards them. Is a very fine line. Also much constructive criticism is completely ignored, not even acknowledged, just ignored because of who it came from.
dude what can you expect after listening that your admin team are retards, incompetent, lazy as fuck (this was a very often "complaint" in Aoshi's direction) and many other things nobody would like to listen, especially people who actually do something for the general good
i have to admit that at some point our work isn't clearly visible like we would be in a next room divided by a wall of glass, because a lot of stuff we do is internal, like rule changes, server updates and many more, this may confuse people
this kind of "feedback" is definitely a majority, i get some constructive feedback very rarely (mostly from people who trust me) because idk people are somewhat afraid of us? this is basically why i played tf2center a lot and sometimes asked people about the opinion because unfortunately for some reasion there is a feeling that people in orgs like me as a league admin are like some fucking gods, while we're just ordinary people doing some additional tasks for the community because we want to let people have fun, that's it
we (at least in the ETF2L) don't get paid at all, so it would be kinda hard to get any other "payment method" for our work other than just a community appreciation
i understand aoshi's feeling about this because i guess this decision isn't hard for the community but for him especially, at some point left the staff earlier mostly because of the same reason but the difference between me and him is that he was a admin promoted to a head of the ETF2L for fucking 6 years, while i was an admin for less than a year, even for me it's kinda unimaginable how much shittalk he got in this amount of time
DoughyShooshBut Aoshi said hes leaving essentially because people are abusive for no reason
Whilst I agree people are overly abusive, there is a reason, the admin team makes many mistakes (personally I disagree with well over half the decisions they make) and they don't own their mistakes, they don't follow their own rules to a T, have very low understanding in player skill level, allow friends to sandbag relentlessly season after season, pussyfoot around to try to appease both teams instead of supporting the team in the right.
wrong. we do make mistakes, and we'll do it in the future because shit happens, we try our best to minimize that from happening as we do a lot of decisions together, so by having many points of view we can achieve the best solution for the community, but there are always cases which we cannot predict like for instance teams being higher/lower than expected in the tiers table
at some point sometimes our actions can be seen as bias for some people because these people very often look on their own point of view only while we do have a look on stuff from a more distanced point of view, i'm trying to explain our actions as much as possible and other admins do, but i'm unsure if we can do more with it
we own our mistakes as a team, because the staff is basically a team of people supporting each other in resolving issues between players/teams
DoughyThe admin team is there to be the faceless organisation that referees players matches. In a competitive game where one team will have to be viewed more favourably for every quarrel that occurs, you will annoy half the people playing. It is inevitable. That is a simple problem with the competitive nature in games. Happens in all sports everywhere.
this is basically an outcome from your perspective on our decisions in the past
at this point i have to admit that some decisions we made in the past could be bad if you look at it now, so i don't really want to make us look perfect
i personally admire aoshi for everything he's done for everyone on our platform, thanks
dude what can you expect after listening that your admin team are retards, incompetent, lazy as fuck (this was a very often "complaint" in Aoshi's direction) and many other things nobody would like to listen, especially people who actually do something for the general good
i have to admit that at some point our work isn't clearly visible like we would be in a next room divided by a wall of glass, because a lot of stuff we do is internal, like rule changes, server updates and many more, this may confuse people
this kind of "feedback" is definitely a majority, i get some constructive feedback very rarely (mostly from people who trust me) because idk people are somewhat afraid of us? this is basically why i played tf2center a lot and sometimes asked people about the opinion because unfortunately for some reasion there is a feeling that people in orgs like me as a league admin are like some fucking gods, while we're just ordinary people doing some additional tasks for the community because we want to let people have fun, that's it
we (at least in the ETF2L) don't get paid at all, so it would be kinda hard to get any other "payment method" for our work other than just a community appreciation
i understand aoshi's feeling about this because i guess this decision isn't hard for the community but for him especially, at some point left the staff earlier mostly because of the same reason but the difference between me and him is that he was a admin promoted to a head of the ETF2L for fucking 6 years, while i was an admin for less than a year, even for me it's kinda unimaginable how much shittalk he got in this amount of time
[quote=Doughy]
[quote=Shoosh]But Aoshi said hes leaving essentially because people are abusive for no reason [/quote]
Whilst I agree people are overly abusive, there is a reason, the admin team makes many mistakes (personally I disagree with well over half the decisions they make) and they don't own their mistakes, they don't follow their own rules to a T, have very low understanding in player skill level, allow friends to sandbag relentlessly season after season, pussyfoot around to try to appease both teams instead of supporting the team in the right.[/quote]
wrong. we do make mistakes, and we'll do it in the future because shit happens, we try our best to minimize that from happening as we do a lot of decisions together, so by having many points of view we can achieve the best solution for the community, but there are always cases which we cannot predict like for instance teams being higher/lower than expected in the tiers table
at some point sometimes our actions can be seen as bias for some people because these people very often look on their own point of view only while we do have a look on stuff from a more distanced point of view, i'm trying to explain our actions as much as possible and other admins do, but i'm unsure if we can do more with it
we own our mistakes as [b]a team[/b], because the staff is basically a team of people supporting each other in resolving issues between players/teams
[quote=Doughy]The admin team is there to be the faceless organisation that referees players matches. In a competitive game where one team will have to be viewed more favourably for every quarrel that occurs, you will annoy half the people playing. It is inevitable. That is a simple problem with the competitive nature in games. Happens in all sports everywhere.[/quote]
this is basically an outcome from your perspective on our decisions in the past
at this point i have to admit that some decisions we made in the past could be bad if you look at it now, so i don't really want to make us look perfect
i personally admire aoshi for everything he's done for everyone on our platform, thanks
Doughy A lot of people (not necessarily saying league/tftv staff think this way, just in general) view any criticism as being an asshole towards them. Is a very fine line. Also much constructive criticism is completely ignored, not even acknowledged, just ignored because of who it came from.
I'm sure there has been constructive criticism that has been listened to and some that hasn't. Just because a criticism is made doesn't mean its right, it is up to the individual or organisation whether they want to act on it or not. Acting on every single piece of constructive criticism is insane. I wouldn't know about criticism being ignored because of who the person is - I'm not an admin.
However, the point of Aoshis post is that hes leaving due to the communities immaturity and abuse - thats not constructive criticism.
Doughy Whilst I agree people are overly abusive, there is a reason, the admin team makes many mistakes (personally I disagree with well over half the decisions they make) and they don't own their mistakes, they don't follow their own rules to a T, have very low understanding in player skill level, allow friends to sandbag relentlessly season after season, pussyfoot around to try to appease both teams instead of supporting the team in the right.
The admin team is there to be the faceless organisation that referees players matches. In a competitive game where one team will have to be viewed more favourably for every quarrel that occurs, you will annoy half the people playing. It is inevitable. That is a simple problem with the competitive nature in games. Happens in all sports everywhere.
Making mistakes does not equate to having to accept abuse from people? Also, just because something is a mistake to you doesn't mean its a mistake.
Doughy It is a misinterpretation, since he could still do the job but just didn't want to. The BS wasn't preventing anything was just making it annoying for him to continue, I completely understand not wanting to do this job, it seems awful
I'd hesitate to call receiving hate for years "annoying". Seems like that's undervaluing the effect it has had on Aoshi.
Doughy It is completely fair for anyone in any position of power to be expected to have a higher maturity level and be held to a higher standard than the rest of the population. This is true for any position in life. If they don't have that level, then they won't get the respect they need to reduce toxicity and abuse.
I have been in medical school for three years. From year 1 we have been told that we will receive abuse at some point in our career - I already have. However, at NO point in time is this acceptable. Regardless of your power position. In fact we're allowed to refuse treatment to patients if they're abusive - unless its an emergency. I speak to consultants who have had a tough scenario and be abused - are they not respected enough? Did they deserve it?
Doughy Of course, but I didn't. Nor did I criticise them for not being able to handle it. I've said many times I don't know why they do it, I've always related things to how I think and what I feel from my outside perspective as someone who doesn't flame admins, but also doesn't partake in their own decisions. I know I wouldn't do it for the same reason many others wouldn't. Too much work for too little reward.
Not everything people do is about cost-benefit. People do things all the time that don't exactly prove a benefit for them, at least materially, but they might get satisfaction mentally.
Also you essentially said Aoshi isn't mature enough to handle his feelings, how is this not criticism of him?
Doughy Plenty of therapists give advice on how to handle feelings. Most of them will ask how the person feels and get the person to actually know how they fell. They won't tell them it's right or wrong, but they will give advice on how to handle real life scenarios that make them feel in an undesirable way. This is what I did. I never ordered anyone to do anything, just gave some advice.
What was your advice?
You said "I also think the staff members should be mature enough themselves to move past the hate". - how is there any other way to interpret that than you're too immature to handle hate so stop. Imagine a therapist saying that lol.
Doughy Hopefully I explained why everything in your comment was wrong shoosh.
Stop being a dick.
I'm sure there has been constructive criticism that has been listened to and some that hasn't. Just because a criticism is made doesn't mean its right, it is up to the individual or organisation whether they want to act on it or not. Acting on every single piece of constructive criticism is insane. I wouldn't know about criticism being ignored because of who the person is - I'm not an admin.
However, the point of Aoshis post is that hes leaving due to the communities immaturity and abuse - thats not constructive criticism.
[quote=Doughy] Whilst I agree people are overly abusive, there is a reason, the admin team makes many mistakes (personally I disagree with well over half the decisions they make) and they don't own their mistakes, they don't follow their own rules to a T, have very low understanding in player skill level, allow friends to sandbag relentlessly season after season, pussyfoot around to try to appease both teams instead of supporting the team in the right.
The admin team is there to be the faceless organisation that referees players matches. In a competitive game where one team will have to be viewed more favourably for every quarrel that occurs, you will annoy half the people playing. It is inevitable. That is a simple problem with the competitive nature in games. Happens in all sports everywhere. [/quote]
Making mistakes does not equate to having to accept abuse from people? Also, just because something is a mistake to you doesn't mean its a mistake.
[quote=Doughy] It is a misinterpretation, since he could still do the job but just didn't want to. The BS wasn't preventing anything was just making it annoying for him to continue, I completely understand not wanting to do this job, it seems awful [/quote]
I'd hesitate to call receiving hate for years "annoying". Seems like that's undervaluing the effect it has had on Aoshi.
[quote=Doughy] It is completely fair for anyone in any position of power to be expected to have a higher maturity level and be held to a higher standard than the rest of the population. This is true for any position in life. If they don't have that level, then they won't get the respect they need to reduce toxicity and abuse. [/quote]
I have been in medical school for three years. From year 1 we have been told that we will receive abuse at some point in our career - I already have. However, at [b]NO[/b][i][u][/u][/i] point in time is this acceptable. Regardless of your power position. In fact we're allowed to refuse treatment to patients if they're abusive - unless its an emergency. I speak to consultants who have had a tough scenario and be abused - are they not respected enough? Did they deserve it?
[quote=Doughy] Of course, but I didn't. Nor did I criticise them for not being able to handle it. I've said many times I don't know why they do it, I've always related things to how I think and what I feel from my outside perspective as someone who doesn't flame admins, but also doesn't partake in their own decisions. I know I wouldn't do it for the same reason many others wouldn't. Too much work for too little reward. [/quote]
Not everything people do is about cost-benefit. People do things all the time that don't exactly prove a benefit for them, at least materially, but they might get satisfaction mentally.
Also you essentially said Aoshi isn't mature enough to handle his feelings, how is this not criticism of him?
[quote=Doughy] Plenty of therapists give advice on how to handle feelings. Most of them will ask how the person feels and get the person to actually know how they fell. They won't tell them it's right or wrong, but they will give advice on how to handle real life scenarios that make them feel in an undesirable way. This is what I did. I never ordered anyone to do anything, just gave some advice. [/quote]
What was your advice?
You said "I also think the staff members should be mature enough themselves to move past the hate". - how is there any other way to interpret that than you're too immature to handle hate so stop. Imagine a therapist saying that lol.
[quote=Doughy] Hopefully I explained why everything in your comment was wrong shoosh. [/quote]
Stop being a dick.