Gullywash, Granary, and Process are maps I would consider good for comp. if you are looking for inspiration. Edit: Badlands. Thought I had typed it first ;-;

how the fuck did you not type badlands.

We need AD other than gravelpit.
Vertical design in mind, consideration of scout doublejump distance and height advantage
Options for pushing, more than 1 opening but not more than 3
Some gay hiding spots for roamer
Mix of open and indoor areas
Good placement of med/ammo, readily available but with some vulnerability in position
Design with some sniper options in mind
Bonus: hard for heavy to get around (heuhehueh)

Also whats up with the comma

I say if you're looking at specific maps, look at Badlands (of course), Process, Snakewater, Granary, and Gullywash...

of course, each one of these maps has its faults. Snakewater and Gullywash have very difficult to push lasts and tend to stalemate, where Granary has bugs and asymmetry issues.

If you're making maps, like I am, be sure to only take some inspiration from these maps, because you don't want to make maps that are practically the same as other maps but worse (read: follower).

Generally, 5CP is the gamemode to go for, as A/D CP and KOTH aren't really prime places for testing - from experience, A/D doesn't get tested barely at all b/c people don't like to scrim those maps, and KOTH is generally either a love/hate relationship for each map. 5CP offers better testing because feedback will be different for each point, and testing will probably be better.

If ya want help making maps, just add me on steam - I've had some experience with mapping for comp so I'd be willing to help.

My two cents. I'll be willing to go more in-depth in later posts or if conversation becomes heated.

Spires

I think KOTH is like that because all we've had really is Viaduct. I don't find it fun (weird mid, everyone fighting in only one area), but snipers love it cause they never have to bother playing scout.

its not badlands

I you look at the map discussion part of the forum then there are some maps in progress there with good feedback and tips on them.

fast responses! huehuehue

Most of the parts explained so far seem like what would be part of a tf2 mappers normal mind set. What is interesting is... What makes comp maps special?

When looking at granary for example, i noticed that it is easy to divide into areas, which are marked by a number of exits which are easy to get an overview over. What does this do to your experience with the map?

Why is koth_ashville not liked? CP_ashville I get, but koth_ashville is the most enjoyable koth map i have played in tf2. It's certainly better than viaduct.

A big thing is height differences. So if a demo or scout wants to get ontop of crates on Granary mid they have to have a slower rollout. Or on Snakewater if a soldier wants to get height advantage they have to rocketjump and give up HP without any health pickups up top.

Ammo pick ups should sort of be out of the way so you can't just spam away. Like on badlands or granary you have to go back in order to grab a large ammo box.

TRY NOT TO MAKE LAST IMPOSSIBLE TO ATTACK (Snakewater, Gullywash, Process, Warmfront, etc)

Is there any reason the a/b -> c style of map seems to be preferred within comp? Or would you be fine with a linear a/d map?

I'd say it would be the greater amount of choices that are able to be made (but not sure how viable that theory is with gpit).
With Edifice, I think people would have liked it less if it were linear simply because each push would most likely come down to a single route once the map was learned, and after that gameplay would get boring and repeating rounds would get repetitive simply because the optimal route would tend to be the same every time.

ramp slides and nice light colours

yards and spires

This

This

Some gay hiding spots for roamer
Mix of open and indoor areas
Also if you want to put stairs in, clip them so they take incoming rocket splashes like ramps and no small lips on protrusions from the ground, they make well-aimed rockets useless and serve no function other than fucking over undeserving soldiers.

Actually, pre-planned sticky trap spots/hiding spots are a bad idea. It's better to have these come about through the natural process of detailing.

As a general rule, maps tend to have these health pickups, but they're usually bottles. Grannary crates have them, process mid, badlands spire has one half-way up as well as on the points and on the battlements.

In terms of looking at other maps, I would say process is the best in the current ESEA rotation for a few reasons:

1. Lots of ramps to make jumping interesting.

2. Does a lot with height (including a mini-spire, which in many ways is better than a normal spire).

3. Good mixture of ground for scouts to shoot, and air with things to jump on for scouts.

4. Only one very powerful sniper sightline.

5. Two different types of entrances into last. One which is quicker to go through from second, but easily spammable. The other which is harder to spam, but slower.

6. All of last is one rocket-jump away from the entrances.

7. The clipping isn't garbage (looking at you snakewater).

yards and spires, yards and spires, yards and spires

natural smooth transitions, sight lines that aren't bonkers out of control, and areas for teams to fight that isn't necessarily on the point.

you know it's a good map when there are tim "radio raheem" nordlund easter eggs

At least one choke that connects directly from 3->2 and 2->1 and a wide open entrance with a longer sightline from 3->2 and most of the time a lobby from 2->1

Ramps and Spires

badland last is one of the best lasts because it gives space to break stalemates without over commiting players for a pick. and the sight lines for sniper are decent, not too many but enought to make the med freak out a bit.

badland's mid is very DM heavy while process, snakewater and granary mids are more team coordinated mids where positioning, focus fire and coms are very important.

snakewater and granary last are slow because you can't push into them without commiting every player to it, so teams always take their time waiting for a pick to make sure that the push doesn't fail and lose every player in a failed push, which makes the game slow.

viaduct is OP for OP snipers, too many places where the LOS covers too much. coldfront had the same problem. you don't want to see a sniper 24/7 in a 6s game.

I personally like process 2nd over the badland's one, because the spire is close enough to the ground that medics and scouts can get to them without having to climb mount everest while still giving a height advantage to whoever is on top of them. also the entrances through flanks give enough space to make a flank push viable. both map's 2nds are pretty good anyway.

gullywash last is hard to push out from because the team that is in lobby can comfortably fight the other team without losing height advantage. also gullywash last is very very hard to push into if the defending team is running some prolander setting like heavy + engi + pyro.

the transition between granary second towards mid or last is infamous for being slow and stalematey.

Ramps, spires, props that kill you, and a cliff.

Ramps, spire, lobbies, cliff/pits, a multilevel mid.

put lots of tiny little bumps in the ground to improve hitreg on rocket splash damage

-scout_main

Major elements to consider, point by point:

Middle:
• Multiple routes and rollouts.
• Two sources for height advantage, one small, one much larger (badlands trains vs. bridge itself, granary elevated middle area vs. crates, etc.)
• Make the capture area far enough from entrances that people have to commit to capturing, instead of just edging in and out (like on granary 2nd).

Second:
• The second point of a map is usually the most unique, but still should factor in some general elements. Obviously, there should be a main route from mid to second to last, but also alternate ones.
• One primary way to get in, and one or two flanking routes should be sufficient, but don't overdo it with entrances. The better maps only have 2-3 ways into second (badlands 2, granary 3, process 3[.5])
• This point should favor the team that has more people committed to the fight. That is, reinforcements should have a smaller impact than on middle, but should probably lean towards the defenders slightly (think of how spire is easier to get to for the defenders, same with process' point; lots of ground for attackers to cover, but once they're in, they have just as much positional advantage)

Last:
• Make it punishing to get on the point, but the point should cap quickly. Just about every good competitive map, with the exception of granary, makes you really commit to the point once you're on it. A lot of them wall you in (badlands, snakewater, gullywash), and they all make it difficult to leave the area once you're that far in.
• Multiple entrances, but none of them should be too much better than another. Larger entrances should be further away from the point or have a poor position otherwise (give up height advantage, etc.) to make it harder to swarm through there.
• Defenders should be able to get to the point relatively quickly from spawn, but at the same time, resupply cabinets should be further back in spawn areas to prevent easy turtling.
• Make it difficult to push out of the last point, but doable. A good last point has a lot of routes for people to get behind and make something happen, but should still be hold-able for the defending team.

General considerations:
• Chokepoints should be scarce, but still existent. Don't make them too big (like coldfront's tunnel on second/last).
• Be sure to consider the main 4 classes heavily (scout, soldier, demo, medic), but don't forget things like sniper sightlines. Scouts should have some terrain to abuse via double jumps, but soldiers should be able to counter most of it. Some places should only be easily accessible by precise jumps, like badlands' dropdown (or granary's for ridiculousness).
• Spawn and cap times should be tweaked a bit to account for distances, don't leave these as defaults.

These are things I've tried to pick up from currently successful maps and work into ideas for new ones, I'm sure some people may have different opinions and a lot of these are obvious, but I think it's a pretty good checklist.

a pug loaf