how many times can RGL say we have to do better until they do better
Announcing the GGL Advanced Playoffs
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TF2 General Discussion
vecchow many times can RGL say we have to do better until they do better
Nothing been the same since Spazz stepped down as head main admin.
[quote=vecc]how many times can RGL say we have to do better until they do better[/quote]
Nothing been the same since Spazz stepped down as head main admin.
Nothing been the same since Spazz stepped down as head main admin.
chellcamp3r101 wordsmore words
It isn't only the act of complaining that is the issue I mean to point out. Feedback is feedback.
It is the complaining and bandwagoning of it, taking no direct responsibility for the community we all prop up collectively, and then devaluing any attempts at resolutions that pushes further into 'not worth it'-land any (all) of this nearly entirely unseen hard effort in the first place. (Yes, I realize that I am also complaining.)
It is just like real life: if a person wants to see something change for the meaningful betterment of themselves and their fellows, they almost always need to take a step into an active leadership role, of whatever degree, and make those dreams and ideas into realities. I sincerely wished more players here, the experienced ones who have that needed experience to back up their opinions and concerns, actually cared that much. Words on a forum are helpful, yes. Words on a forum are meaningful and important to have. They unfortunately don't mean much of anything when the actual work comes calling. Hence the roadblocks we always find ourselves stuck behind.
I'm not mad that players are upset about something that is so obviously frustrating to be seemingly forced to endure.
I'm frustrated that players (high division players especially) continually and historically show that they would rather be frustrated and throw the whole lot out. That they would rather take and take while giving next to nothing back to the very system they are benefiting from.
No one is here for money or a cash flow. We are here because we like a game.
I get the current situation sucks. And I'm sorry RGL only ever seems to have "Just wait a little longer, please" to communicate. But being strong armed into capitulating for a community that, from my perspective over 2 years of silent effort, would rather be another facet of the problem than actually a shining feature of Its fantastic aspects is something I will not attempt to sugar coat to retain face.
We can and are doing better despite what this particular TF2 forum enjoys pushing.
It just takes a lot of time and focused effort that does not always exist when it would otherwise be preferred.
[quote=chell][quote=camp3r101] words [/quote] more words [/quote]
It isn't only the act of complaining that is the issue I mean to point out. Feedback is feedback.
It is the complaining and bandwagoning of it, taking no direct responsibility for the community we all prop up [i]collectively[/i], and then devaluing any attempts at resolutions that pushes further into 'not worth it'-land any ([b]all[/b]) of this nearly entirely unseen hard effort in the first place. (Yes, I realize that I am also complaining.)
It is just like real life: if a person wants to see something change for the meaningful betterment of themselves and their fellows, they almost always need to take a step into an active leadership role, of whatever degree, and make those dreams and ideas into realities. I sincerely wished more players here, the experienced ones who have that needed experience to back up their opinions and concerns, actually cared that much. Words on a forum are helpful, yes. Words on a forum are meaningful and important to have. They unfortunately don't mean much of anything when the actual work comes calling. Hence the roadblocks we always find ourselves stuck behind.
I'm not mad that players are upset about something that is so obviously frustrating to be seemingly forced to endure.
I'm frustrated that players (high division players especially) [i]continually[/i] and historically show that they would rather be frustrated and throw the whole lot out. That they would rather take and take while giving next to nothing back to the very system they are benefiting from.
No one is here for money or a cash flow. We are here because we like a game.
I get the current situation sucks. And I'm sorry RGL only ever seems to have "Just wait a little longer, please" to communicate. But being strong armed into capitulating for a community that, from my perspective over 2 years of silent effort, would rather be another facet of the problem than actually a shining feature of Its fantastic aspects is something I will not attempt to sugar coat to retain face.
We can and are doing better despite what this particular TF2 forum enjoys pushing.
It just takes [i]a lot[/i] of time and focused effort that does not always exist when it would otherwise be preferred.
It isn't only the act of complaining that is the issue I mean to point out. Feedback is feedback.
It is the complaining and bandwagoning of it, taking no direct responsibility for the community we all prop up [i]collectively[/i], and then devaluing any attempts at resolutions that pushes further into 'not worth it'-land any ([b]all[/b]) of this nearly entirely unseen hard effort in the first place. (Yes, I realize that I am also complaining.)
It is just like real life: if a person wants to see something change for the meaningful betterment of themselves and their fellows, they almost always need to take a step into an active leadership role, of whatever degree, and make those dreams and ideas into realities. I sincerely wished more players here, the experienced ones who have that needed experience to back up their opinions and concerns, actually cared that much. Words on a forum are helpful, yes. Words on a forum are meaningful and important to have. They unfortunately don't mean much of anything when the actual work comes calling. Hence the roadblocks we always find ourselves stuck behind.
I'm not mad that players are upset about something that is so obviously frustrating to be seemingly forced to endure.
I'm frustrated that players (high division players especially) [i]continually[/i] and historically show that they would rather be frustrated and throw the whole lot out. That they would rather take and take while giving next to nothing back to the very system they are benefiting from.
No one is here for money or a cash flow. We are here because we like a game.
I get the current situation sucks. And I'm sorry RGL only ever seems to have "Just wait a little longer, please" to communicate. But being strong armed into capitulating for a community that, from my perspective over 2 years of silent effort, would rather be another facet of the problem than actually a shining feature of Its fantastic aspects is something I will not attempt to sugar coat to retain face.
We can and are doing better despite what this particular TF2 forum enjoys pushing.
It just takes [i]a lot[/i] of time and focused effort that does not always exist when it would otherwise be preferred.
i think things would be a lot better if rgl either:
A. admit that they don't have the resources to properly audit elijah and actually dedicated or found manpower for that, or
B. admit that they have the resources and have properly audited elijah, but haven't found reasonable evidence of cheating
Because either one of these could be true but the complete and utter refusal to talk about this specific case and instead only talk in vague generalities related to this case just adds fuel to the witchhunt. I dont think it will ever be pretty because theres simply a number of people who will never ever be convinced elijah isn't cheating, but at the very least i think as the league who allowed this player to play, you should give an explanation on why this person is playing and stick to it even if it pisses people off. Right now all im seeing is rgl just kind of avoiding the problem as if 6s season just happen and it watches over them instead of being the actual operators and rulemakers of the league.
i think things would be a lot better if rgl either:
A. admit that they don't have the resources to properly audit elijah and actually dedicated or found manpower for that, or
B. admit that they have the resources and have properly audited elijah, but haven't found reasonable evidence of cheating
Because either one of these could be true but the complete and utter refusal to talk about this specific case and instead only talk in vague generalities [i]related[/i] to this case just adds fuel to the witchhunt. I dont think it will ever be pretty because theres simply a number of people who will never ever be convinced elijah isn't cheating, but at the very least i think as the league who allowed this player to play, you should give an explanation on why this person is playing and stick to it even if it pisses people off. Right now all im seeing is rgl just kind of avoiding the problem as if 6s season just happen and it watches over them instead of being the actual operators and rulemakers of the league.
A. admit that they don't have the resources to properly audit elijah and actually dedicated or found manpower for that, or
B. admit that they have the resources and have properly audited elijah, but haven't found reasonable evidence of cheating
Because either one of these could be true but the complete and utter refusal to talk about this specific case and instead only talk in vague generalities [i]related[/i] to this case just adds fuel to the witchhunt. I dont think it will ever be pretty because theres simply a number of people who will never ever be convinced elijah isn't cheating, but at the very least i think as the league who allowed this player to play, you should give an explanation on why this person is playing and stick to it even if it pisses people off. Right now all im seeing is rgl just kind of avoiding the problem as if 6s season just happen and it watches over them instead of being the actual operators and rulemakers of the league.
Does the AC team do anything differently than what the general public does? For all I can assume he just watches a pov and an stv just like the dippidy video and try to call it by eye. You don't have a client that detects programs on someone's computer. Genuinely feel like seeing these sus clips and reacting to movement patterns nearly no movement friction with extreme precision, and having like 40% aim assist.
Does the AC team do anything differently than what the general public does? For all I can assume he just watches a pov and an stv just like the dippidy video and try to call it by eye. You don't have a client that detects programs on someone's computer. Genuinely feel like seeing these sus clips and reacting to movement patterns nearly no movement friction with extreme precision, and having like 40% aim assist.
hi, I will keep this short and sweet
Wild_Rumpus
its a bit of both- we have good people but motivation and time are limited. We do our best with what we have, but this whole situation has shown a light on the process for me and I will be overseeing future optimizations which will work to address these issues.
I cannot share any details about the investigation at this time, but once we have concluded, I will personally give an update.
aim-
yes, the standards for AC are much more stringent than what has been posted.
if teams opt to play in the GGL I will forward the prize money on to giblert. RGL does not make any profit currently, 100% of player & ringer fees go towards prizes and lan.
This is a contentious issue internally to share anything at all publicly, even to make a statement like this;
You will see many changes from us in coming months driven by myself- I am only just beginning to step into this role.
hi, I will keep this short and sweet
[quote=Wild_Rumpus][/quote]
its a bit of both- we have good people but motivation and time are limited. We do our best with what we have, but this whole situation has shown a light on the process for me and I will be overseeing future optimizations which will work to address these issues.
I cannot share any details about the investigation at this time, but once we have concluded, I will personally give an update.
[quote=aim-][/quote]
yes, the standards for AC are much more stringent than what has been posted.
if teams opt to play in the GGL I will forward the prize money on to giblert. RGL does not make any profit currently, 100% of player & ringer fees go towards prizes and lan.
This is a contentious issue internally to share anything at all publicly, even to make a statement like this;
You will see many changes from us in coming months driven by myself- I am only just beginning to step into this role.
[quote=Wild_Rumpus][/quote]
its a bit of both- we have good people but motivation and time are limited. We do our best with what we have, but this whole situation has shown a light on the process for me and I will be overseeing future optimizations which will work to address these issues.
I cannot share any details about the investigation at this time, but once we have concluded, I will personally give an update.
[quote=aim-][/quote]
yes, the standards for AC are much more stringent than what has been posted.
if teams opt to play in the GGL I will forward the prize money on to giblert. RGL does not make any profit currently, 100% of player & ringer fees go towards prizes and lan.
This is a contentious issue internally to share anything at all publicly, even to make a statement like this;
You will see many changes from us in coming months driven by myself- I am only just beginning to step into this role.
camp3r101chellcamp3r101 wordsmore words
It isn't only the act of complaining that is the issue I mean to point out. Feedback is feedback.
It is the complaining and bandwagoning of it, taking no direct responsibility for the community we all prop up collectively, and then devaluing any attempts at resolutions that pushes further into 'not worth it'-land any (all) of this nearly entirely unseen hard effort in the first place. (Yes, I realize that I am also complaining.)
It is just like real life: if a person wants to see something change for the meaningful betterment of themselves and their fellows, they almost always need to take a step into an active leadership role, of whatever degree, and make those dreams and ideas into realities. I sincerely wished more players here, the experienced ones who have that needed experience to back up their opinions and concerns, actually cared that much. Words on a forum are helpful, yes. Words on a forum are meaningful and important to have. They unfortunately don't mean much of anything when the actual work comes calling. Hence the roadblocks we always find ourselves stuck behind.
I'm not mad that players are upset about something that is so obviously frustrating to be seemingly forced to endure.
I'm frustrated that players (high division players especially) continually and historically show that they would rather be frustrated and throw the whole lot out. That they would rather take and take while giving next to nothing back to the very system they are benefiting from.
No one is here for money or a cash flow. We are here because we like a game.
I get the current situation sucks. And I'm sorry RGL only ever seems to have "Just wait a little longer, please" to communicate. But being strong armed into capitulating for a community that, from my perspective over 2 years of silent effort, would rather be another facet of the problem than actually a shining feature of Its fantastic aspects is something I will not attempt to sugar coat to retain face.
We can and are doing better despite what this particular TF2 forum enjoys pushing.
It just takes a lot of time and focused effort that does not always exist when it would otherwise be preferred.
Maybe you think you are here as an individual who is voicing their own opinions, but you are an official representative of RGL. The first thing people see when they read your posts is the giant shining RGL tag right next to your name. And if the stance that RGL holds is to be condescending and blame the community for being lazy and "not taking up leadership positions", then as far as I'm concerned there is no way for RGL and the 6s community to have a healthy relationship going into the future. It is clear how the community feels. You seem to have made it clear how RGL feels.
[quote=camp3r101][quote=chell][quote=camp3r101] words [/quote] more words [/quote]
It isn't only the act of complaining that is the issue I mean to point out. Feedback is feedback.
It is the complaining and bandwagoning of it, taking no direct responsibility for the community we all prop up [i]collectively[/i], and then devaluing any attempts at resolutions that pushes further into 'not worth it'-land any ([b]all[/b]) of this nearly entirely unseen hard effort in the first place. (Yes, I realize that I am also complaining.)
It is just like real life: if a person wants to see something change for the meaningful betterment of themselves and their fellows, they almost always need to take a step into an active leadership role, of whatever degree, and make those dreams and ideas into realities. I sincerely wished more players here, the experienced ones who have that needed experience to back up their opinions and concerns, actually cared that much. Words on a forum are helpful, yes. Words on a forum are meaningful and important to have. They unfortunately don't mean much of anything when the actual work comes calling. Hence the roadblocks we always find ourselves stuck behind.
I'm not mad that players are upset about something that is so obviously frustrating to be seemingly forced to endure.
I'm frustrated that players (high division players especially) [i]continually[/i] and historically show that they would rather be frustrated and throw the whole lot out. That they would rather take and take while giving next to nothing back to the very system they are benefiting from.
No one is here for money or a cash flow. We are here because we like a game.
I get the current situation sucks. And I'm sorry RGL only ever seems to have "Just wait a little longer, please" to communicate. But being strong armed into capitulating for a community that, from my perspective over 2 years of silent effort, would rather be another facet of the problem than actually a shining feature of Its fantastic aspects is something I will not attempt to sugar coat to retain face.
We can and are doing better despite what this particular TF2 forum enjoys pushing.
It just takes [i]a lot[/i] of time and focused effort that does not always exist when it would otherwise be preferred.[/quote]
Maybe you think you are here as an individual who is voicing their own opinions, but you are an official representative of RGL. The first thing people see when they read your posts is the giant shining RGL tag right next to your name. And if the stance that RGL holds is to be condescending and blame the community for being lazy and "not taking up leadership positions", then as far as I'm concerned there is no way for RGL and the 6s community to have a healthy relationship going into the future. It is clear how the community feels. You seem to have made it clear how RGL feels.
It isn't only the act of complaining that is the issue I mean to point out. Feedback is feedback.
It is the complaining and bandwagoning of it, taking no direct responsibility for the community we all prop up [i]collectively[/i], and then devaluing any attempts at resolutions that pushes further into 'not worth it'-land any ([b]all[/b]) of this nearly entirely unseen hard effort in the first place. (Yes, I realize that I am also complaining.)
It is just like real life: if a person wants to see something change for the meaningful betterment of themselves and their fellows, they almost always need to take a step into an active leadership role, of whatever degree, and make those dreams and ideas into realities. I sincerely wished more players here, the experienced ones who have that needed experience to back up their opinions and concerns, actually cared that much. Words on a forum are helpful, yes. Words on a forum are meaningful and important to have. They unfortunately don't mean much of anything when the actual work comes calling. Hence the roadblocks we always find ourselves stuck behind.
I'm not mad that players are upset about something that is so obviously frustrating to be seemingly forced to endure.
I'm frustrated that players (high division players especially) [i]continually[/i] and historically show that they would rather be frustrated and throw the whole lot out. That they would rather take and take while giving next to nothing back to the very system they are benefiting from.
No one is here for money or a cash flow. We are here because we like a game.
I get the current situation sucks. And I'm sorry RGL only ever seems to have "Just wait a little longer, please" to communicate. But being strong armed into capitulating for a community that, from my perspective over 2 years of silent effort, would rather be another facet of the problem than actually a shining feature of Its fantastic aspects is something I will not attempt to sugar coat to retain face.
We can and are doing better despite what this particular TF2 forum enjoys pushing.
It just takes [i]a lot[/i] of time and focused effort that does not always exist when it would otherwise be preferred.[/quote]
Maybe you think you are here as an individual who is voicing their own opinions, but you are an official representative of RGL. The first thing people see when they read your posts is the giant shining RGL tag right next to your name. And if the stance that RGL holds is to be condescending and blame the community for being lazy and "not taking up leadership positions", then as far as I'm concerned there is no way for RGL and the 6s community to have a healthy relationship going into the future. It is clear how the community feels. You seem to have made it clear how RGL feels.
pay money into a league to get delayed match schedules, cheaters in the league left to run rampant, biased rule enforcement, oversight on your fucking pugscrims, and admins who are probably younger than you talking like they know everything
patently absurd
pay money into a league to get delayed match schedules, cheaters in the league left to run rampant, biased rule enforcement, oversight on your fucking pugscrims, and admins who are probably younger than you talking like they know everything
patently absurd
patently absurd
irrelevant but how does arcadia the literal owner of RGL not have the tag for RGL but camp3r does lmao
camp3r101why no volunteer
i am like 99% sure that getting on the AC team for RGL is notoriously difficult to get on and people do apply, so blaming people for not being willing to volunteer is wild to me
irrelevant but how does arcadia the literal owner of RGL not have the tag for RGL but camp3r does lmao
[quote=camp3r101]why no volunteer[/quote]
i am like 99% sure that getting on the AC team for RGL is notoriously difficult to get on and people do apply, so blaming people for not being willing to volunteer is wild to me
[quote=camp3r101]why no volunteer[/quote]
i am like 99% sure that getting on the AC team for RGL is notoriously difficult to get on and people do apply, so blaming people for not being willing to volunteer is wild to me
Dealing with cheaters and being an AC volunteer sounds like shit and anyone who actually puts work into that side of things has my immense gratitude and respect. That being said, you can't expect people to be happy playing against cheaters, especially ones who get multiple chances and just cheat again. Instead of attacking this initiative to make the game more fair, insulting those who are trying to participate, and vaguely threatening those people as well, you should work with them.
I don't think many people expect RGL and the AC team to be able to catch every cheater as soon as they start or to put in full time job hours. But, RGL is a paid league. RGL provides a paid service and the customers of that service are unhappy and feel unheard and this is a result of that.
Dealing with cheaters and being an AC volunteer sounds like shit and anyone who actually puts work into that side of things has my immense gratitude and respect. That being said, you can't expect people to be happy playing against cheaters, especially ones who get multiple chances and just cheat again. Instead of attacking this initiative to make the game more fair, insulting those who are trying to participate, and vaguely threatening those people as well, you should work with them.
I don't think many people expect RGL and the AC team to be able to catch every cheater as soon as they start or to put in full time job hours. But, RGL is a paid league. RGL provides a paid service and the customers of that service are unhappy and feel unheard and this is a result of that.
I don't think many people expect RGL and the AC team to be able to catch every cheater as soon as they start or to put in full time job hours. But, RGL is a paid league. RGL provides a paid service and the customers of that service are unhappy and feel unheard and this is a result of that.
camp3r101Sometimes you all would rather just roll over and give up than actually step up and put on your own Admin shoes and and get a taste of your own medicine for a change
this is kind of the opposite of how i would describe what giblerts doing here lol
[quote=camp3r101]Sometimes you all would rather just roll over and give up than actually step up and put on your own Admin shoes and and get a taste of your own medicine for a change[/quote]
this is kind of the opposite of how i would describe what giblerts doing here lol
this is kind of the opposite of how i would describe what giblerts doing here lol
i thought jemond was responsible for community outreach can u shut up
i thought jemond was responsible for community outreach can u shut up
camp3r101The whole point I'd like to get across is players would rather passively complain LOUDLY about these very serious issues rather than put in concerted efforts to help the scene avoid them overall to begin with.
Applying for RGL Staff now won't help this particular situation. No shit, Sherlock.
Being an active, contributing part of the actual process of it all is what should be the focus of those that apparently care the most. Rather than taking in all there is to gain for your own personal benefit and enjoyment and then naysaying the rest of it as is apparently always the tradition in this community.
Despite what anyone here chooses to believe, I have zero reason to grandstand for my own sake. I'm writing out what has been written on the wall for years now. Yall just refuse to come to terms that the state of comp TF2 is quite literally because of the action (READ: inaction) of those who are most vocally detracting from it. Those being in large parts the players here, on TFTV, who play in higher divisions/skill levels. Yall know so much about this game and the ways you think it should/shouldn't be played. Put yourselves in a position where you can do more than puff hot air about it. Actually give the damn for once and volunteer for the work that is needed to get to where we all wish we already were.
But I again made the mistake of coming to TFTV, attempting to give any sort of perspective on the literal ONE reason why it is that any sort of meaningful, long term change, that it is apparently what the most vocal want, doesn't happen at the speeds they want.
Call it a nerd essay. Call it a pointless wall of text.
Yall just live to complain and complain.
UR SOFT ASF TBH...WORK HARDER..........
I LOVE THE GIBLERT GAMING LEAGUE
[quote=camp3r101]The whole point I'd like to get across is players would rather passively complain LOUDLY about these very serious issues rather than put in concerted efforts to help the scene avoid them overall to begin with.
Applying for RGL Staff [i]now[/i] won't help this particular situation. No shit, Sherlock.
Being an active, contributing part of the actual process of it all is what should be the focus of those that apparently care the most. Rather than taking in all there is to gain for your own personal benefit and enjoyment and then naysaying the rest of it as is apparently [i]always[/i] the tradition in this community.
Despite what anyone here chooses to believe, I have zero reason to grandstand for my own sake. I'm writing out what has been written on the wall for years now. Yall just refuse to come to terms that the state of comp TF2 is quite literally because of the action (READ: inaction) of those who are most vocally detracting from it. Those being in large parts the players here, on TFTV, who play in higher divisions/skill levels. Yall know so much about this game and the ways you think it should/shouldn't be played. Put yourselves in a position where you can do more than puff hot air about it. Actually give the damn for once and volunteer for the work that is needed to get to where we all wish we already were.
But I again made the mistake of coming to TFTV, attempting to give any sort of perspective on the literal ONE reason why it is that any sort of meaningful, long term change, that it is apparently what the most vocal want, doesn't happen at the speeds they want.
Call it a nerd essay. Call it a pointless wall of text.
Yall just live to complain and complain.[/quote]
UR SOFT ASF TBH...WORK HARDER..........
I LOVE THE GIBLERT GAMING LEAGUE
Applying for RGL Staff [i]now[/i] won't help this particular situation. No shit, Sherlock.
Being an active, contributing part of the actual process of it all is what should be the focus of those that apparently care the most. Rather than taking in all there is to gain for your own personal benefit and enjoyment and then naysaying the rest of it as is apparently [i]always[/i] the tradition in this community.
Despite what anyone here chooses to believe, I have zero reason to grandstand for my own sake. I'm writing out what has been written on the wall for years now. Yall just refuse to come to terms that the state of comp TF2 is quite literally because of the action (READ: inaction) of those who are most vocally detracting from it. Those being in large parts the players here, on TFTV, who play in higher divisions/skill levels. Yall know so much about this game and the ways you think it should/shouldn't be played. Put yourselves in a position where you can do more than puff hot air about it. Actually give the damn for once and volunteer for the work that is needed to get to where we all wish we already were.
But I again made the mistake of coming to TFTV, attempting to give any sort of perspective on the literal ONE reason why it is that any sort of meaningful, long term change, that it is apparently what the most vocal want, doesn't happen at the speeds they want.
Call it a nerd essay. Call it a pointless wall of text.
Yall just live to complain and complain.[/quote]
UR SOFT ASF TBH...WORK HARDER..........
I LOVE THE GIBLERT GAMING LEAGUE
camp3r101
Similar to other peoples sentiment in this thread, but it is not a good look for RGL admins to be openly complaining in forums about issues originating from their platform. I get that a lot of comments on TFTV are usually ignorant of larger systems or straight up misrepresent a person/platform's intent or motivations, but as a representative it'd be best to not be vocal on these issues and work with the rest of the RGL staff on a consistent and unified response. Responding with your own frustrations with the community in the same thread where other staff are trying to give a fair and diplomatic response paints RGL in a bad light.
RGLs public communication in response to controversy has always been a mixed bag all the way back to its first seasons; after a while you have to start reflecting on how the platform as a whole responds to such things. I would SERIOUSLY consider developing an internal policy on how to respond to forum posts like this and others. Take ETF2L, for instance. In my time there, the policy was that no admin was to publicly respond to ETF2L-related discussions on forums without permission from the Head Admin(s) and instead internally discuss and agree upon a public post if it was determined that such a post was even necessary. Every admin who signed up agreed to this process and ensured public representation was controlled.
Ironically, posts like these only further alienate RGL from the community, making it that much harder to get good volunteers.
[quote=camp3r101][/quote]
Similar to other peoples sentiment in this thread, but it is not a good look for RGL admins to be openly complaining in forums about issues originating from their platform. I get that a lot of comments on TFTV are usually ignorant of larger systems or straight up misrepresent a person/platform's intent or motivations, but as a representative it'd be best to not be vocal on these issues and work with the rest of the RGL staff on a consistent and unified response. Responding with your own frustrations with the community in the same thread where other staff are trying to give a fair and diplomatic response paints RGL in a bad light.
RGLs public communication in response to controversy has always been a mixed bag all the way back to its first seasons; after a while you have to start reflecting on how the platform as a whole responds to such things. I would [b]SERIOUSLY[/b] consider developing an internal policy on how to respond to forum posts like this and others. Take ETF2L, for instance. In my time there, the policy was that no admin was to publicly respond to ETF2L-related discussions on forums without permission from the Head Admin(s) and instead internally discuss and agree upon a public post if it was determined that such a post was even necessary. Every admin who signed up agreed to this process and ensured public representation was controlled.
Ironically, posts like these only further alienate RGL from the community, making it that much harder to get good volunteers.
Similar to other peoples sentiment in this thread, but it is not a good look for RGL admins to be openly complaining in forums about issues originating from their platform. I get that a lot of comments on TFTV are usually ignorant of larger systems or straight up misrepresent a person/platform's intent or motivations, but as a representative it'd be best to not be vocal on these issues and work with the rest of the RGL staff on a consistent and unified response. Responding with your own frustrations with the community in the same thread where other staff are trying to give a fair and diplomatic response paints RGL in a bad light.
RGLs public communication in response to controversy has always been a mixed bag all the way back to its first seasons; after a while you have to start reflecting on how the platform as a whole responds to such things. I would [b]SERIOUSLY[/b] consider developing an internal policy on how to respond to forum posts like this and others. Take ETF2L, for instance. In my time there, the policy was that no admin was to publicly respond to ETF2L-related discussions on forums without permission from the Head Admin(s) and instead internally discuss and agree upon a public post if it was determined that such a post was even necessary. Every admin who signed up agreed to this process and ensured public representation was controlled.
Ironically, posts like these only further alienate RGL from the community, making it that much harder to get good volunteers.
Quite ironic, their name is CCP, yet you are the ones doing the censoring. Imagine if the NBA league made a playoff tournament without Jordan's bulls, because they were too scared to face them? Yikes...
Quite ironic, their name is CCP, yet you are the ones doing the censoring. Imagine if the NBA league made a playoff tournament without Jordan's bulls, because they were too scared to face them? Yikes...
camp3r101I don't have any remarks on how we are going to be handling Advanced Playoffs for 6s Season 12 just yet. But I do have some words I would hope some of you would take time to read in the meantime.
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durzoi'd go as far as to say i wish it happened many seasons ago, given things like the "gukurahundi" teamI wasn't an Admin for RGL until Season 6 of 6s...I wanted it mentioned in regards to your last points here that both teams in Season 5 of AM Grand Finals that Season had cheaters on them. But, iirc, players were only suspect of kiwi and by extension the rest of their AM team.
That Season's Grand Finals match: Puggas in Paris vs. Gukurahundi
A lovely group of players, real standup citizens and pillars of this community. /s
Something that I've since understood many players knowing well of, and saying absolutely nothing about it to any Admin, is the latter's team name. It has since been changed due to the original name being that of a racial genocide in Africa that apparently no one, besides those players, were aware of for multiple seasons afterwards?
_ _
Yall say you feel so powerless to do anything to "make RGL better", yet are so willing to talk about just throwing years of well intended effort away while not making an actual ACTIVE attempt at being a part in making change for the better. Shouting nays from the sidelines while choosing to remain deaf to legitimate limitations is disingenuous. Why would anyone want to have a genuine discussion in that environment?
I encourage anyone reading this to apply to be a part of the format Staff teams here. After 2+ years now, I've found it to be extremely hard work to be doing for free. But it is worth it as someone has to give a damn enough to put themselves in the positions of being "the bad guy" and making any effort to keep the wheel turning for our silly, little unique game. We all care too much about Comp TF2. Come share that caring with the rest of us. :)
Pretty much, we all gotta stop demanding to have our cake while simultaneously swallowing it whole.
_ _
A few players acting in total bad faith should not and does not detract from the individual efforts of those that make Comp TF2 a reality for everyone here in the first place. Nor does it invalidate or make worthless any attempts to do the right thing in the right ways on the administration side of it, regardless of how seemingly 'unseen' those efforts may be.
Discounting any alternative perspective or effort that is not aligned with your own is one of the primary factors driving legitimate organizers from our scene in the first place. Which ironically is its own driving force making systemic issues even worse lol.
Sometimes you all would rather just roll over and give up than actually step up and put on your own Admin shoes and and get a taste of your own medicine for a change. The effort required to have what we have even now is immense and yall would rather stay blind to it than put in any actual meaningful work outside of musing in Discord and shitposting on forums.
Naivety because of lack of understanding is one thing. Naivety for the sake of maintaining one's passivity while loudly and publicly throwing one's hands into the air only further enables bad faith actors and throws preponderance to the wind. Which, again, ironically, just worsens real issues and further clouds the legitimacy of anyone's actual sincere combined efforts.
_ _
We can all do better. I think that much can be assumed; that we all know that. That is the ever-present goal that is always being clawed towards. I'd ask you to come and be an active part of it rather than choosing to give up on it completely. Because good luck tbqh! Every TF2 League has the same issues. The next versions of UGC/ESEA/CEVO/RGL/FACEIT/ETF2L/ozFORTRESS/etc. will see these and those same concerns. Instead of rehashing another comp league, "doing it right 'your way'", come put in the effort where it can actually have immediate impact for the better. We do not need another dead-on-arrival Team Fortress 2 Competitive League.
Edit: There is ZERO way you 4 downfraggers read all of this in 2 minutes lmao
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1128941294945837207/1129192177516429312/dandylaptop.png
[quote=camp3r101][h]I don't have any remarks on how we are going to be handling Advanced Playoffs for 6s Season 12 just yet. But I do have some words I would hope some of you would take time to read in the meantime.[/h]
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[quote=durzo]i'd go as far as to say i wish it happened many seasons ago, given things like the "gukurahundi" team[/quote]
I wasn't an Admin for RGL until Season 6 of 6s...I wanted it mentioned in regards to your last points here that [i]both[/i] teams in Season 5 of AM Grand Finals that Season had cheaters on them. But, iirc, players were only suspect of kiwi and by extension the rest of their AM team.
That Season's Grand Finals match: [b][url=https://rgl.gg/Public/Match.aspx?m=12949&r=40]Puggas in Paris vs. Gukurahundi[/url][/b]
A lovely group of players, real standup citizens and pillars of this community. /s
Something that I've since understood many players knowing well of, and saying absolutely nothing about it to any Admin, is the latter's team name. It has since been changed due to the original name being that of a racial genocide in Africa that apparently no one, besides those players, were aware of for multiple seasons afterwards?
_ _
Yall say you feel so powerless to do anything to "make RGL better", yet are so willing to talk about just throwing years of well intended effort away while not making an [i]actual[/i] [b][i]ACTIVE[/i][/b] attempt at being a part in making change for the better. Shouting nays from the sidelines while choosing to remain deaf to legitimate limitations is disingenuous. Why would anyone want to have a genuine discussion in that environment?
I encourage anyone reading this to apply to be a part of the format Staff teams [url=https://rgl.gg/Players/Reporting/StaffApplication.aspx?r=40]here[/url]. After 2+ years now, I've found it to be extremely hard work to be doing for free. But it is worth it as [i]someone[/i] has to give a damn enough to put themselves in the positions of being "the bad guy" and making any effort to keep the wheel turning for our silly, little unique game. We all care too much about Comp TF2. Come share that caring with the rest of us. :)
Pretty much, we all gotta stop demanding to have our cake while simultaneously swallowing it whole.
_ _
A few players acting in total bad faith should not and [i]does not[/i] detract from the individual efforts of those that make Comp TF2 a reality [i][b]for everyone here[/b][/i] in the first place. Nor does it invalidate or make worthless any attempts to do the right thing in the right ways on the administration side of it, regardless of how seemingly 'unseen' those efforts may be.
[b][u]Discounting any alternative perspective or effort that is not aligned with your own is one of the primary factors driving legitimate organizers from our scene in the first place. Which ironically is its own driving force making systemic issues [i]even worse[/i] lol. [/u][/b]
Sometimes you all would rather just roll over and give up than actually step up and put on your own Admin shoes and and get a taste of your own medicine for a change. The effort required to have what we have even now is immense and yall would rather stay blind to it than put in any actual meaningful work outside of musing in Discord and shitposting on forums.
Naivety because of lack of understanding is one thing. Naivety for the sake of maintaining one's passivity while loudly and publicly throwing one's hands into the air only further enables bad faith actors and throws preponderance to the wind. Which, again, ironically, just worsens real issues and further clouds the legitimacy of anyone's actual sincere combined efforts.
_ _
We can all do better. I think that much can be assumed; that we all know that. That is the ever-present goal that is [i]always[/i] being clawed towards. I'd ask you to come and be an active part of it rather than choosing to give up on it completely. Because good luck tbqh! Every TF2 League has the same issues. The next versions of UGC/ESEA/CEVO/RGL/FACEIT/ETF2L/ozFORTRESS/etc. will see these and those same concerns. Instead of rehashing another comp league, "doing it right 'your way'", come put in the effort where it can actually have immediate impact for the better. We do not need another dead-on-arrival Team Fortress 2 Competitive League.
Edit: There is ZERO way you 4 downfraggers read all of this in 2 minutes lmao[/quote]
[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1128941294945837207/1129192177516429312/dandylaptop.png[/img]
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[quote=durzo]i'd go as far as to say i wish it happened many seasons ago, given things like the "gukurahundi" team[/quote]
I wasn't an Admin for RGL until Season 6 of 6s...I wanted it mentioned in regards to your last points here that [i]both[/i] teams in Season 5 of AM Grand Finals that Season had cheaters on them. But, iirc, players were only suspect of kiwi and by extension the rest of their AM team.
That Season's Grand Finals match: [b][url=https://rgl.gg/Public/Match.aspx?m=12949&r=40]Puggas in Paris vs. Gukurahundi[/url][/b]
A lovely group of players, real standup citizens and pillars of this community. /s
Something that I've since understood many players knowing well of, and saying absolutely nothing about it to any Admin, is the latter's team name. It has since been changed due to the original name being that of a racial genocide in Africa that apparently no one, besides those players, were aware of for multiple seasons afterwards?
_ _
Yall say you feel so powerless to do anything to "make RGL better", yet are so willing to talk about just throwing years of well intended effort away while not making an [i]actual[/i] [b][i]ACTIVE[/i][/b] attempt at being a part in making change for the better. Shouting nays from the sidelines while choosing to remain deaf to legitimate limitations is disingenuous. Why would anyone want to have a genuine discussion in that environment?
I encourage anyone reading this to apply to be a part of the format Staff teams [url=https://rgl.gg/Players/Reporting/StaffApplication.aspx?r=40]here[/url]. After 2+ years now, I've found it to be extremely hard work to be doing for free. But it is worth it as [i]someone[/i] has to give a damn enough to put themselves in the positions of being "the bad guy" and making any effort to keep the wheel turning for our silly, little unique game. We all care too much about Comp TF2. Come share that caring with the rest of us. :)
Pretty much, we all gotta stop demanding to have our cake while simultaneously swallowing it whole.
_ _
A few players acting in total bad faith should not and [i]does not[/i] detract from the individual efforts of those that make Comp TF2 a reality [i][b]for everyone here[/b][/i] in the first place. Nor does it invalidate or make worthless any attempts to do the right thing in the right ways on the administration side of it, regardless of how seemingly 'unseen' those efforts may be.
[b][u]Discounting any alternative perspective or effort that is not aligned with your own is one of the primary factors driving legitimate organizers from our scene in the first place. Which ironically is its own driving force making systemic issues [i]even worse[/i] lol. [/u][/b]
Sometimes you all would rather just roll over and give up than actually step up and put on your own Admin shoes and and get a taste of your own medicine for a change. The effort required to have what we have even now is immense and yall would rather stay blind to it than put in any actual meaningful work outside of musing in Discord and shitposting on forums.
Naivety because of lack of understanding is one thing. Naivety for the sake of maintaining one's passivity while loudly and publicly throwing one's hands into the air only further enables bad faith actors and throws preponderance to the wind. Which, again, ironically, just worsens real issues and further clouds the legitimacy of anyone's actual sincere combined efforts.
_ _
We can all do better. I think that much can be assumed; that we all know that. That is the ever-present goal that is [i]always[/i] being clawed towards. I'd ask you to come and be an active part of it rather than choosing to give up on it completely. Because good luck tbqh! Every TF2 League has the same issues. The next versions of UGC/ESEA/CEVO/RGL/FACEIT/ETF2L/ozFORTRESS/etc. will see these and those same concerns. Instead of rehashing another comp league, "doing it right 'your way'", come put in the effort where it can actually have immediate impact for the better. We do not need another dead-on-arrival Team Fortress 2 Competitive League.
Edit: There is ZERO way you 4 downfraggers read all of this in 2 minutes lmao[/quote]
[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1128941294945837207/1129192177516429312/dandylaptop.png[/img]
camp3r101Several posts
As someone who has been in your shoes for a decade now, I truly believe that when the players of your league would rather play in a self made playoff bracket based on your league's regular season result and boykott the official one - and throw money at it too - you should take a long, hard look in the mirror and not blame the community for you being understaffed.
Edit: typos
[quote=camp3r101]Several posts[/quote]
As someone who has been in your shoes for a decade now, I truly believe that when the players of your league would rather play in a self made playoff bracket based on your league's regular season result and boykott the official one - and throw money at it too - you should take a long, hard look in the mirror and not blame the community for you being understaffed.
Edit: typos
As someone who has been in your shoes for a decade now, I truly believe that when the players of your league would rather play in a self made playoff bracket based on your league's regular season result and boykott the official one - and throw money at it too - you should take a long, hard look in the mirror and not blame the community for you being understaffed.
Edit: typos
This isn’t the first instance of camp3r being unable to communicate with players in a professional manner. Through my own experiences as well as those of other players, there have been countless instances where he has left passive aggressive comments on open tickets, resulting in other admins having to step in to resolve the issue and provide adequate assistance.
Being unable to professionally handle issues only hurts the already strained relationship between the players and RGL. There are even examples of him banning players on Uncletopia, another community he volunteers for, for simply playing well. There are comments on this video from multiple players who all say they experienced something similar. While these claims can't be proven, it is concerning to see so many similar complaints regarding a single admin.
It’s understandable that he sometimes allows his emotions get the better of him (we are all human), however it is not a desirable characteristic of a competent admin. This is not to say that being the head admin is an easy thing to do; the obvious amount of work he has put into RGL is appreciated, but emotional posts lashing out at players with valid concerns doesn't fix anything. Forum posts are the only way players can voice concerns - telling everyone that they should have volunteered to join the staff team instead of "complaining" is not a relevant solution to the current problems. Times like these provide a golden opportunity for RGL to foster a better relationship between it and its players, and should not be treated as a fire that need to be tamed.
This isn’t the first instance of camp3r being unable to communicate with players in a professional manner. Through my own experiences as well as those of other players, there have been countless instances where he has left passive aggressive comments on open tickets, resulting in other admins having to step in to resolve the issue and provide adequate assistance.
Being unable to professionally handle issues only hurts the already strained relationship between the players and RGL. There are even examples of him banning players on Uncletopia, another community he volunteers for, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZUbLdi7pfk]for simply playing well[/url]. There are comments on this video from multiple players who all say they experienced something similar. While these claims can't be proven, it is concerning to see so many similar complaints regarding a single admin.
It’s understandable that he sometimes allows his emotions get the better of him (we are all human), however it is not a desirable characteristic of a competent admin. This is not to say that being the head admin is an easy thing to do; the obvious amount of work he has put into RGL is appreciated, but emotional posts lashing out at players with valid concerns doesn't fix anything. Forum posts are the only way players can voice concerns - telling everyone that they should have volunteered to join the staff team instead of "complaining" is not a relevant solution to the current problems. Times like these provide a golden opportunity for RGL to foster a better relationship between it and its players, and should not be treated as a fire that need to be tamed.
Being unable to professionally handle issues only hurts the already strained relationship between the players and RGL. There are even examples of him banning players on Uncletopia, another community he volunteers for, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZUbLdi7pfk]for simply playing well[/url]. There are comments on this video from multiple players who all say they experienced something similar. While these claims can't be proven, it is concerning to see so many similar complaints regarding a single admin.
It’s understandable that he sometimes allows his emotions get the better of him (we are all human), however it is not a desirable characteristic of a competent admin. This is not to say that being the head admin is an easy thing to do; the obvious amount of work he has put into RGL is appreciated, but emotional posts lashing out at players with valid concerns doesn't fix anything. Forum posts are the only way players can voice concerns - telling everyone that they should have volunteered to join the staff team instead of "complaining" is not a relevant solution to the current problems. Times like these provide a golden opportunity for RGL to foster a better relationship between it and its players, and should not be treated as a fire that need to be tamed.
we like to talk about RGL as if the league is run by a single person, but I think that the issues RGL is currently facing (include the whole Elijah situation) have arisen because of a divide between the admins and their inability to govern/take action because of that - Arcadia already suggested this in post #36. it'll probably be better for us to recognise that RGL isn't just a single entity, but a bunch of individual leaders, if we want to approach, let alone boycott them
we like to talk about RGL as if the league is run by a single person, but I think that the issues RGL is currently facing (include the whole Elijah situation) have arisen because of a divide between the admins and their inability to govern/take action because of that - Arcadia already suggested this in post #36. it'll probably be better for us to recognise that RGL isn't just a single entity, but a bunch of individual leaders, if we want to approach, let alone boycott them
Absolutely massive essay incoming, will likely be two parts.
Camp3r’s posts were out of line and disrespectful to the community, they did not address the situation at hand but laid out his pent-up frustration of being an admin for a prolonged period for RGL. This has been acknowledged internally,
DrHappiness
And funny enough, there is/was an internal policy for posting on threads like this, it is clear that after this incident it needs to be implemented again.
I just wanted to say to camp3r’s impact, even before he was head admin, camp3r was the head and shoulders of RGL, without him, not a single match is scheduled, and the lower divs do not function let alone exist (which is much of the league). And I wanted to ask that, if possible, y’all show some mercy for him because I promise you a camp3r in his right state of mind does not make these posts (take that as you will).
However, I will not admit that everything in his posts is complete non-sense, and I would like to provide some perspective as to how we got here in the first place.
The transition from ESEA to RGL was already tough, admins did not know how to admin or act publicly, players did not know how to handle admin intervention (let’s be honest, ESEA had literally no active admins except for the occasional prayer from tri, so in NA it was quite literally the wild wild west). RGL fucked up numerous times, and was completely flamed by the community for it, which 10/10 during the earlier era was warranted. They were not only growing pains of the league, but a result of misguided leadership from up top and not adjusting to the wants of the players in time. I would say this period spanned from around Season 1 to about Season 6 of RGL. In that time, RGL made themselves public enemy #1, and for many reasons rightfully so! I remember being on those threads and reading some of the ridiculous shit and unclear rulings that were taking place; I posted quite a few times myself. This began the (perceivably) unrepairable relationship that the community (or tftv in this case) has with RGL. As reno became 6s HA, PR improved massively and the shitshow that was public RGL posting finally became reasonable, though I would say that the mentality was still cautious around player feedback. Tftv RGL threads themselves began to disappear as RGL was seemingly doing a little better of a job, though of course not perfect. There was the occasional thread bringing up stuff that happened in past seasons, things the current administration could literally not control, and other threads that had some relevancy and were helpful in putting RGL in its place.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of the resentment that existed in the early days for RGL still exists, despite the efforts from the admin team to attempt and salvage what was left. I wish I could hit the reset button and completely wipe the past PR garbage shitshow insane-fest from history to fix this, but it’s obviously not possible. I won’t say either that the community pre-conception/apprehension towards RGL is completely unwarranted, but as the admin team has grown out of treating players like crap, the same could not be said for the current NA tf2 environment. To be clear, this is not just on tftv, there is a clear indication that no matter what RGL does, good or bad, there will always be the idea that RGL is against the people, RGL bad, what have you, (which is something I have heard touted in numerous pugs, scrims, matches, etc.). Because of this, a lot of (veteran, lol) admins have felt this built up resent and feel like we are constantly shat on by the community, which for a volunteer position is exhausting. I’m not saying this is happening to the level to which admins perceive it, and to an extent I believe it is exaggerated by the interactions that can leave a sour taste, building up over time into a warped perspective.
For example, this is something that just happened in advanced with the scheduler fucking up and me being too latent to fix it. I admit that I fucked up here, and it’s not about the fact that there was a post or the fact that I dropped the ball, they are completely justified in being upset, it’s that there was an entire ticket and good faith effort that I put in to try and both resolve and explain the issue. I promised going forward it wouldn’t happen again and I would make damn sure that there was official policy to stop this from happening (this is not the first time this has happened in advance!). It’s the fact that the post made literally no mention that admins were contacted and that the issue was attempted to be solved, in fact it made it sound like I made no effort to do anything. To be frank, it not only made me feel like shit, but I also questioned why I went through any effort to respond to it in the first place, as it felt as though my effort was completely ignored. They are in every right to ignore what I said, the thought I put into the entire situation, but it doesn’t stop me from feeling useless when it gets turned on my head publicly.
I think interactions like this, even those hidden in tickets and dispersed around the whispering of pugs, creates the mentality of it being extremely difficult to admin in this community. It feels like after turning every corner there is a massive brick wall that is the community perspective, and no matter what I do or what good faith effort is put in, it’s impossible to change.
However, I would like to reiterate here that it only seems this way from an admin perspective, and I don’t speak for everyone, though I do not think what I am saying is completely inaccurate. Despite what it may seem like, and I don’t have to say this, but I encourage people to keep posting on the forums with league issues if admins are incompetent. The league needs to be held accountable, though I ask that you show at least some courtesy to admins that put in logical, rule-based effort to help you out.
I would ask that people apply to RGL, but I cannot advocate that anyone become an admin after the interaction I had with a fellow member of staff just yesterday.
RAONICALIAS
The highest member of staff actually, the owner, arcadia.
Absolutely massive essay incoming, will likely be two parts.
Camp3r’s posts were out of line and disrespectful to the community, they did not address the situation at hand but laid out his pent-up frustration of being an admin for a prolonged period for RGL. This has been acknowledged internally,
[quote=DrHappiness][/quote]
And funny enough, there is/was an internal policy for posting on threads like this, it is clear that after this incident it needs to be implemented again.
I just wanted to say to camp3r’s impact, even before he was head admin, camp3r was the head and shoulders of RGL, without him, not a single match is scheduled, and the lower divs do not function let alone exist (which is much of the league). And I wanted to ask that, if possible, y’all show some mercy for him because I promise you a camp3r in his right state of mind does not make these posts (take that as you will).
However, I will not admit that everything in his posts is complete non-sense, and I would like to provide some perspective as to how we got here in the first place.
The transition from ESEA to RGL was already tough, admins did not know how to admin or act publicly, players did not know how to handle admin intervention (let’s be honest, ESEA had literally no active admins except for the occasional prayer from tri, so in NA it was quite literally the wild wild west). RGL fucked up numerous times, and was completely flamed by the community for it, which 10/10 during the earlier era was warranted. They were not only growing pains of the league, but a result of misguided leadership from up top and not adjusting to the wants of the players in time. I would say this period spanned from around Season 1 to about Season 6 of RGL. In that time, RGL made themselves public enemy #1, and for many reasons rightfully so! I remember being on those threads and reading some of the ridiculous shit and unclear rulings that were taking place; I posted quite a few times myself. This began the (perceivably) unrepairable relationship that the community (or tftv in this case) has with RGL. As reno became 6s HA, PR improved massively and the shitshow that was public RGL posting finally became reasonable, though I would say that the mentality was still cautious around player feedback. Tftv RGL threads themselves began to disappear as RGL was seemingly doing a little better of a job, though of course not perfect. There was the occasional thread bringing up stuff that happened in past seasons, things the current administration could literally not control, and other threads that had some relevancy and were helpful in putting RGL in its place.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of the resentment that existed in the early days for RGL still exists, despite the efforts from the admin team to attempt and salvage what was left. I wish I could hit the reset button and completely wipe the past PR garbage shitshow insane-fest from history to fix this, but it’s obviously not possible. I won’t say either that the community pre-conception/apprehension towards RGL is completely unwarranted, but as the admin team has grown out of treating players like crap, the same could not be said for the current NA tf2 environment. To be clear, this is not just on tftv, there is a clear indication that no matter what RGL does, good or bad, there will always be the idea that RGL is against the people, RGL bad, what have you, (which is something I have heard touted in numerous pugs, scrims, matches, etc.). Because of this, a lot of (veteran, lol) admins have felt this built up resent and feel like we are constantly shat on by the community, which for a volunteer position is exhausting. I’m not saying this is happening to the level to which admins perceive it, and to an extent I believe it is exaggerated by the interactions that can leave a sour taste, building up over time into a warped perspective.
[url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/1085218/rgl-s12-advanced-happenings-discussion]For example[/url], this is something that just happened in advanced with the scheduler fucking up and me being too latent to fix it. I admit that I fucked up here, and it’s not about the fact that there was a post or the fact that I dropped the ball, they are completely justified in being upset, it’s that there was an entire ticket and good faith effort that I put in to try and both resolve and explain the issue. I promised going forward it wouldn’t happen again and I would make damn sure that there was official policy to stop this from happening (this is not the first time this has happened in advance!). It’s the fact that the post made literally no mention that admins were contacted and that the issue was attempted to be solved, in fact it made it sound like I made no effort to do anything. To be frank, it not only made me feel like shit, but I also questioned why I went through any effort to respond to it in the first place, as it felt as though my effort was completely ignored. They are in every right to ignore what I said, the thought I put into the entire situation, but it doesn’t stop me from feeling useless when it gets turned on my head publicly.
I think interactions like this, even those hidden in tickets and dispersed around the whispering of pugs, creates the mentality of it being extremely difficult to admin in this community. It feels like after turning every corner there is a massive brick wall that is the community perspective, and no matter what I do or what good faith effort is put in, it’s impossible to change.
However, I would like to reiterate here that it only seems this way from an admin perspective, and I don’t speak for everyone, though I do not think what I am saying is completely inaccurate. Despite what it may seem like, and I don’t have to say this, but I encourage people to keep posting on the forums with league issues if admins are incompetent. The league needs to be held accountable, though I ask that you show at least some courtesy to admins that put in logical, rule-based effort to help you out.
I would ask that people apply to RGL, but I cannot advocate that anyone become an admin after the interaction I had with a fellow member of staff just yesterday.
[quote=RAONICALIAS][/quote]
The highest member of staff actually, the owner, arcadia.
Camp3r’s posts were out of line and disrespectful to the community, they did not address the situation at hand but laid out his pent-up frustration of being an admin for a prolonged period for RGL. This has been acknowledged internally,
[quote=DrHappiness][/quote]
And funny enough, there is/was an internal policy for posting on threads like this, it is clear that after this incident it needs to be implemented again.
I just wanted to say to camp3r’s impact, even before he was head admin, camp3r was the head and shoulders of RGL, without him, not a single match is scheduled, and the lower divs do not function let alone exist (which is much of the league). And I wanted to ask that, if possible, y’all show some mercy for him because I promise you a camp3r in his right state of mind does not make these posts (take that as you will).
However, I will not admit that everything in his posts is complete non-sense, and I would like to provide some perspective as to how we got here in the first place.
The transition from ESEA to RGL was already tough, admins did not know how to admin or act publicly, players did not know how to handle admin intervention (let’s be honest, ESEA had literally no active admins except for the occasional prayer from tri, so in NA it was quite literally the wild wild west). RGL fucked up numerous times, and was completely flamed by the community for it, which 10/10 during the earlier era was warranted. They were not only growing pains of the league, but a result of misguided leadership from up top and not adjusting to the wants of the players in time. I would say this period spanned from around Season 1 to about Season 6 of RGL. In that time, RGL made themselves public enemy #1, and for many reasons rightfully so! I remember being on those threads and reading some of the ridiculous shit and unclear rulings that were taking place; I posted quite a few times myself. This began the (perceivably) unrepairable relationship that the community (or tftv in this case) has with RGL. As reno became 6s HA, PR improved massively and the shitshow that was public RGL posting finally became reasonable, though I would say that the mentality was still cautious around player feedback. Tftv RGL threads themselves began to disappear as RGL was seemingly doing a little better of a job, though of course not perfect. There was the occasional thread bringing up stuff that happened in past seasons, things the current administration could literally not control, and other threads that had some relevancy and were helpful in putting RGL in its place.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of the resentment that existed in the early days for RGL still exists, despite the efforts from the admin team to attempt and salvage what was left. I wish I could hit the reset button and completely wipe the past PR garbage shitshow insane-fest from history to fix this, but it’s obviously not possible. I won’t say either that the community pre-conception/apprehension towards RGL is completely unwarranted, but as the admin team has grown out of treating players like crap, the same could not be said for the current NA tf2 environment. To be clear, this is not just on tftv, there is a clear indication that no matter what RGL does, good or bad, there will always be the idea that RGL is against the people, RGL bad, what have you, (which is something I have heard touted in numerous pugs, scrims, matches, etc.). Because of this, a lot of (veteran, lol) admins have felt this built up resent and feel like we are constantly shat on by the community, which for a volunteer position is exhausting. I’m not saying this is happening to the level to which admins perceive it, and to an extent I believe it is exaggerated by the interactions that can leave a sour taste, building up over time into a warped perspective.
[url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/1085218/rgl-s12-advanced-happenings-discussion]For example[/url], this is something that just happened in advanced with the scheduler fucking up and me being too latent to fix it. I admit that I fucked up here, and it’s not about the fact that there was a post or the fact that I dropped the ball, they are completely justified in being upset, it’s that there was an entire ticket and good faith effort that I put in to try and both resolve and explain the issue. I promised going forward it wouldn’t happen again and I would make damn sure that there was official policy to stop this from happening (this is not the first time this has happened in advance!). It’s the fact that the post made literally no mention that admins were contacted and that the issue was attempted to be solved, in fact it made it sound like I made no effort to do anything. To be frank, it not only made me feel like shit, but I also questioned why I went through any effort to respond to it in the first place, as it felt as though my effort was completely ignored. They are in every right to ignore what I said, the thought I put into the entire situation, but it doesn’t stop me from feeling useless when it gets turned on my head publicly.
I think interactions like this, even those hidden in tickets and dispersed around the whispering of pugs, creates the mentality of it being extremely difficult to admin in this community. It feels like after turning every corner there is a massive brick wall that is the community perspective, and no matter what I do or what good faith effort is put in, it’s impossible to change.
However, I would like to reiterate here that it only seems this way from an admin perspective, and I don’t speak for everyone, though I do not think what I am saying is completely inaccurate. Despite what it may seem like, and I don’t have to say this, but I encourage people to keep posting on the forums with league issues if admins are incompetent. The league needs to be held accountable, though I ask that you show at least some courtesy to admins that put in logical, rule-based effort to help you out.
I would ask that people apply to RGL, but I cannot advocate that anyone become an admin after the interaction I had with a fellow member of staff just yesterday.
[quote=RAONICALIAS][/quote]
The highest member of staff actually, the owner, arcadia.
As said earlier in this thread, I completely understand why players are pissed off about playing against a potential cheater. However, it is not within league rules to allow teams to discount an entire team of players for playoffs, especially since that team has not been punished in any official academy. After consulting with other admins, I decided a compromise to delay playoffs was best and hopefully teams would be okay with that. Without anybody's input, arcadia decided upon himself that he would make a post throwing the entire existing admin team under the bus to earn brownie points with the community. Offering to pay league fees to the GGL is a complete undermining of both the AC teams’ potential decision and my decision as the division’s admin to try and work out something that would benefit everyone. When confronted about this issue in the staff discord, arcadia completely dismissed both Virgil and I’s concerns, and asked that we trust his decision making going forward, despite him never having experience being a league admin and interacting with players at this level. I’ll go ahead here and completely break down arcadia’s statement to give a little bit more context:
arcadiaits a bit of both- we have good people but motivation and time are limited. We do our best with what we have, but this whole situation has shown a light on the process for me and I will be overseeing future optimizations which will work to address these issues.
I cannot share any details about the investigation at this time, but once we have concluded, I will personally give an update.
Kyle what the fuck are you talking about here? You completely ignored the process of consulting other admins, went over everybody’s head, and made an executive decision that goes completely against league rules and sets a nasty precedent. If you are referring to camp3r’s posts then fair, otherwise the AC limitations YOU KNOW BECAUSE YOU HAVE ACCESS TO LITERALLY THE ENTIRE STAFF DISCORD (things I do not even know), so don’t act fucking naïve to the situation beforehand. If you were to have made changes, it should have been BEFORE this public shitstorm, not after like you’re a kid that just broke his toy and is desperately trying to fix it before his mom gets home. I’m glad you’re personally giving an update here, because as I mentioned to you before, the communication from you and the other admins at the top is HORRENDOUS and needs major improvement (it has been this way FAR before your time here). Remember arcadia, as you said, it’s not us (staff) vs them (players), we are the players, in the same vein that YOU are not RGL, WE are. Especially considering the extenuating circumstances surrounding a certain staff member, it is fucking unbelievable that you would throw them under the bus here.
arcadiaif teams opt to play in the GGL I will forward the prize money on to giblert. RGL does not make any profit currently, 100% of player & ringer fees go towards prizes and lan.
As mentioned, this completely violates league rules and oversteps your AC team. Oh, btw GGL, even though he “supports” you, apparently, he doesn’t think that you will succeed, which is “why he is taking this risk”. I however know that y’all are competent enough to set up a tournament, it really does not take that much effort.
arcadiaThis is a contentious issue internally to share anything at all publicly, even to make a statement like this;
You will see many changes from us in coming months driven by myself- I am only just beginning to step into this role.
I’m glad you have decided it’s time to step up as an owner of the league publicly, yet are so quick to talk about communication issues that we have with you privately? I’m happy that it’s easier for you to post on a public forum than it is for you to read your own staff channels. I will not accept that you were just clueless as to how to approach situations like this, you’re a grown adult with a job, you should 1000% know better than this. As you said in our discord while avoiding our concerns, you’re here to learn and get better, so here’s your lesson: don’t go over people’s heads that work there asses off so you can have a league that you are the owner of. If you want to be the knight in shining armor so bad, might I suggest that you try and understand admin concerns and league etiquette before bastardizing your entire staff on a public form.
Let me wrap this up by saying that over the past 2 and a half years or so I enjoyed being on staff and serving the community. I enjoyed contributing positively to changes that benefit players across the league. However, I refuse to sit here and be treated like insignificant garbage by the owner of this league. If I am allowed, I will stick it out and be here to support advanced until the end of the season, if not, it’s been a pleasure.
In the meantime, unless significant changes are undergone over at RGL internally, I would not suggest applying to their staff unless you want to be subject to combined external and randomized internal pressure.
As said earlier in this thread, I completely understand why players are pissed off about playing against a potential cheater. However, it is not within league rules to allow teams to discount an entire team of players for playoffs, especially since that team has not been punished in any official academy. After consulting with other admins, I decided a compromise to delay playoffs was best and hopefully teams would be okay with that. Without anybody's input, arcadia decided upon himself that he would make a post throwing the entire existing admin team under the bus to earn brownie points with the community. Offering to pay league fees to the GGL is a complete undermining of both the AC teams’ potential decision and my decision as the division’s admin to try and work out something that would benefit everyone. When confronted about this issue in the staff discord, arcadia completely dismissed both Virgil and I’s concerns, and asked that we trust his decision making going forward, despite him never having experience being a league admin and interacting with players at this level. I’ll go ahead here and completely break down arcadia’s statement to give a little bit more context:
[quote=arcadia]
its a bit of both- we have good people but motivation and time are limited. We do our best with what we have, but this whole situation has shown a light on the process for me and I will be overseeing future optimizations which will work to address these issues.
I cannot share any details about the investigation at this time, but once we have concluded, I will personally give an update.
[/quote]
Kyle what the fuck are you talking about here? You completely ignored the process of consulting other admins, went over everybody’s head, and made an executive decision that goes completely against league rules and sets a nasty precedent. If you are referring to camp3r’s posts then fair, otherwise the AC limitations YOU KNOW BECAUSE YOU HAVE ACCESS TO LITERALLY THE ENTIRE STAFF DISCORD (things I do not even know), so don’t act fucking naïve to the situation beforehand. If you were to have made changes, it should have been BEFORE this public shitstorm, not after like you’re a kid that just broke his toy and is desperately trying to fix it before his mom gets home. I’m glad you’re personally giving an update here, because as I mentioned to you before, the communication from you and the other admins at the top is HORRENDOUS and needs major improvement (it has been this way FAR before your time here). Remember arcadia, as you said, it’s not us (staff) vs them (players), we are the players, in the same vein that YOU are not RGL, WE are. Especially considering the extenuating circumstances surrounding a certain staff member, it is fucking unbelievable that you would throw them under the bus here.
[quote=arcadia]
if teams opt to play in the GGL I will forward the prize money on to giblert. RGL does not make any profit currently, 100% of player & ringer fees go towards prizes and lan.[/quote]
As mentioned, this completely violates league rules and oversteps your AC team. Oh, btw GGL, even though he “supports” you, apparently, he doesn’t think that you will succeed, which is “why he is taking this risk”. I however know that y’all are competent enough to set up a tournament, it really does not take that much effort.
[quote=arcadia]
This is a contentious issue internally to share anything at all publicly, even to make a statement like this;
You will see many changes from us in coming months driven by myself- I am only just beginning to step into this role.[/quote]
I’m glad you have decided it’s time to step up as an owner of the league publicly, yet are so quick to talk about communication issues that we have with you privately? I’m happy that it’s easier for you to post on a public forum than it is for you to read your own staff channels. I will not accept that you were just clueless as to how to approach situations like this, you’re a grown adult with a job, you should 1000% know better than this. As you said in our discord while avoiding our concerns, you’re here to learn and get better, so here’s your lesson: don’t go over people’s heads that work there asses off so you can have a league that you are the owner of. If you want to be the knight in shining armor so bad, might I suggest that you try and understand admin concerns and league etiquette before bastardizing your entire staff on a public form.
Let me wrap this up by saying that over the past 2 and a half years or so I enjoyed being on staff and serving the community. I enjoyed contributing positively to changes that benefit players across the league. However, I refuse to sit here and be treated like insignificant garbage by the owner of this league. If I am allowed, I will stick it out and be here to support advanced until the end of the season, if not, it’s been a pleasure.
In the meantime, unless significant changes are undergone over at RGL internally, I would not suggest applying to their staff unless you want to be subject to combined external and randomized internal pressure.
[quote=arcadia]
its a bit of both- we have good people but motivation and time are limited. We do our best with what we have, but this whole situation has shown a light on the process for me and I will be overseeing future optimizations which will work to address these issues.
I cannot share any details about the investigation at this time, but once we have concluded, I will personally give an update.
[/quote]
Kyle what the fuck are you talking about here? You completely ignored the process of consulting other admins, went over everybody’s head, and made an executive decision that goes completely against league rules and sets a nasty precedent. If you are referring to camp3r’s posts then fair, otherwise the AC limitations YOU KNOW BECAUSE YOU HAVE ACCESS TO LITERALLY THE ENTIRE STAFF DISCORD (things I do not even know), so don’t act fucking naïve to the situation beforehand. If you were to have made changes, it should have been BEFORE this public shitstorm, not after like you’re a kid that just broke his toy and is desperately trying to fix it before his mom gets home. I’m glad you’re personally giving an update here, because as I mentioned to you before, the communication from you and the other admins at the top is HORRENDOUS and needs major improvement (it has been this way FAR before your time here). Remember arcadia, as you said, it’s not us (staff) vs them (players), we are the players, in the same vein that YOU are not RGL, WE are. Especially considering the extenuating circumstances surrounding a certain staff member, it is fucking unbelievable that you would throw them under the bus here.
[quote=arcadia]
if teams opt to play in the GGL I will forward the prize money on to giblert. RGL does not make any profit currently, 100% of player & ringer fees go towards prizes and lan.[/quote]
As mentioned, this completely violates league rules and oversteps your AC team. Oh, btw GGL, even though he “supports” you, apparently, he doesn’t think that you will succeed, which is “why he is taking this risk”. I however know that y’all are competent enough to set up a tournament, it really does not take that much effort.
[quote=arcadia]
This is a contentious issue internally to share anything at all publicly, even to make a statement like this;
You will see many changes from us in coming months driven by myself- I am only just beginning to step into this role.[/quote]
I’m glad you have decided it’s time to step up as an owner of the league publicly, yet are so quick to talk about communication issues that we have with you privately? I’m happy that it’s easier for you to post on a public forum than it is for you to read your own staff channels. I will not accept that you were just clueless as to how to approach situations like this, you’re a grown adult with a job, you should 1000% know better than this. As you said in our discord while avoiding our concerns, you’re here to learn and get better, so here’s your lesson: don’t go over people’s heads that work there asses off so you can have a league that you are the owner of. If you want to be the knight in shining armor so bad, might I suggest that you try and understand admin concerns and league etiquette before bastardizing your entire staff on a public form.
Let me wrap this up by saying that over the past 2 and a half years or so I enjoyed being on staff and serving the community. I enjoyed contributing positively to changes that benefit players across the league. However, I refuse to sit here and be treated like insignificant garbage by the owner of this league. If I am allowed, I will stick it out and be here to support advanced until the end of the season, if not, it’s been a pleasure.
In the meantime, unless significant changes are undergone over at RGL internally, I would not suggest applying to their staff unless you want to be subject to combined external and randomized internal pressure.
ScreamLet me wrap this up by saying that over the past 2 and a half years or so I enjoyed being on staff and serving the community. I enjoyed contributing positively to changes that benefit players across the league. However, I refuse to sit here and be treated like insignificant garbage by the owner of this league. If I am allowed, I will stick it out and be here to support advanced until the end of the season, if not, it’s been a pleasure.
In the meantime, unless significant changes are undergone over at RGL internally, I would not suggest applying to their staff unless you want to be subject to combined external and randomized internal pressure.
https://www.liveabout.com/thmb/tuCjsaMq82e6wKG5U7fdEWpV-Cw=/1500x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/78022427-56a9b11b5f9b58b7d0fe1a8c.jpg
[quote=Scream]
Let me wrap this up by saying that over the past 2 and a half years or so I enjoyed being on staff and serving the community. I enjoyed contributing positively to changes that benefit players across the league. However, I refuse to sit here and be treated like insignificant garbage by the owner of this league. If I am allowed, I will stick it out and be here to support advanced until the end of the season, if not, it’s been a pleasure.
In the meantime, unless significant changes are undergone over at RGL internally, I would not suggest applying to their staff unless you want to be subject to combined external and randomized internal pressure.[/quote]
[img]https://www.liveabout.com/thmb/tuCjsaMq82e6wKG5U7fdEWpV-Cw=/1500x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/78022427-56a9b11b5f9b58b7d0fe1a8c.jpg[/img]
Let me wrap this up by saying that over the past 2 and a half years or so I enjoyed being on staff and serving the community. I enjoyed contributing positively to changes that benefit players across the league. However, I refuse to sit here and be treated like insignificant garbage by the owner of this league. If I am allowed, I will stick it out and be here to support advanced until the end of the season, if not, it’s been a pleasure.
In the meantime, unless significant changes are undergone over at RGL internally, I would not suggest applying to their staff unless you want to be subject to combined external and randomized internal pressure.[/quote]
[img]https://www.liveabout.com/thmb/tuCjsaMq82e6wKG5U7fdEWpV-Cw=/1500x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/78022427-56a9b11b5f9b58b7d0fe1a8c.jpg[/img]
GGL is a great idea lol look at how the RGL staff rushes to the thread to write a Reddit post to complain about people complaining (INSANE) in response. even if elijah isn't cheating, this whole situation has kinda revealed that there is almost no consequence for cheating in this joke of a league if someone random from the community doesn't happen to check out your demos, seeing how there is functionally no AC team. RGLs plan of security by obscurity is out the window, and without an AC client + RGLs refusal to do anything about anything, shits kinda cooked.
GGL is a great idea lol look at how the RGL staff rushes to the thread to write a Reddit post to complain about people complaining (INSANE) in response. even if elijah isn't cheating, this whole situation has kinda revealed that there is almost no consequence for cheating in this joke of a league if someone random from the community doesn't happen to check out your demos, seeing how there is functionally no AC team. RGLs plan of security by obscurity is out the window, and without an AC client + RGLs refusal to do anything about anything, shits kinda cooked.
thank you, cant wait to watch Giblert (Top G). it's insane how the rgl staff turned on each other in a public thread instead of hashing it out in DMs or their staff chat. Camper is off his rocker and while I'm thankful for his contributions to the community and the competitive scene, i don t think he should've gone all "well if you guys think you're so good at it, why don't you do it yourself? sign up to be an AC admin, pussy" on the thread. I couldn't imagine how mind-numbing it would be to sit thru a bunch of nc-im povs of people cheating just for them to make an alt and try again, all without getting paid. dippidy did all the hard work for y'all u just gotta be like "ok do i think he is cheating or do i think that he is legit" then pull the trigger on it and its over. The longer you prolong this situation the worse its gonna get and the more people are gonna think ur league is a joke.
I think what Giblert is doing is a great thing to do. if the teams all genuinely think he's cheating and refuses to play, then just have the cheater team play the people that don't think they're cheating (whatever teams seeding is after 5th or whatever it is). then rgl will disqualify the teams that dip out to play for the ggl and the playoffs seeding will suck tremendously but the people that think elijah isn't cheating will have good/fun playoffs games. idk how to feel about killing the team that elijah carried to first place tho.
thank you, cant wait to watch Giblert (Top G). it's insane how the rgl staff turned on each other in a public thread instead of hashing it out in DMs or their staff chat. Camper is off his rocker and while I'm thankful for his contributions to the community and the competitive scene, i don t think he should've gone all "well if you guys think you're so good at it, why don't you do it yourself? sign up to be an AC admin, pussy" on the thread. I couldn't imagine how mind-numbing it would be to sit thru a bunch of nc-im povs of people cheating just for them to make an alt and try again, all without getting paid. dippidy did all the hard work for y'all u just gotta be like "ok do i think he is cheating or do i think that he is legit" then pull the trigger on it and its over. The longer you prolong this situation the worse its gonna get and the more people are gonna think ur league is a joke.
I think what Giblert is doing is a great thing to do. if the teams all genuinely think he's cheating and refuses to play, then just have the cheater team play the people that don't think they're cheating (whatever teams seeding is after 5th or whatever it is). then rgl will disqualify the teams that dip out to play for the ggl and the playoffs seeding will suck tremendously but the people that think elijah isn't cheating will have good/fun playoffs games. idk how to feel about killing the team that elijah carried to first place tho.
I think what Giblert is doing is a great thing to do. if the teams all genuinely think he's cheating and refuses to play, then just have the cheater team play the people that don't think they're cheating (whatever teams seeding is after 5th or whatever it is). then rgl will disqualify the teams that dip out to play for the ggl and the playoffs seeding will suck tremendously but the people that think elijah isn't cheating will have good/fun playoffs games. idk how to feel about killing the team that elijah carried to first place tho.
blood just publicly aired admin chats in the form of a two-parter novel with no provocation i take back everything i said about optics this is turning into an e-civil war
blood just publicly aired admin chats in the form of a two-parter novel with no provocation i take back everything i said about optics this is turning into an e-civil war
ScreamLet me wrap this up by saying that over the past 2 and a half years or so I enjoyed being on staff and serving the community. I enjoyed contributing positively to changes that benefit players across the league. However, I refuse to sit here and be treated like insignificant garbage by the owner of this league. If I am allowed, I will stick it out and be here to support advanced until the end of the season, if not, it’s been a pleasure.
In the meantime, unless significant changes are undergone over at RGL internally, I would not suggest applying to their staff unless you want to be subject to combined external and randomized internal pressure.
[quote=Scream]
Let me wrap this up by saying that over the past 2 and a half years or so I enjoyed being on staff and serving the community. I enjoyed contributing positively to changes that benefit players across the league. However, I refuse to sit here and be treated like insignificant garbage by the owner of this league. If I am allowed, I will stick it out and be here to support advanced until the end of the season, if not, it’s been a pleasure.
In the meantime, unless significant changes are undergone over at RGL internally, I would not suggest applying to their staff unless you want to be subject to combined external and randomized internal pressure.[/quote]
[url=https://previews.123rf.com/images/xixinxing/xixinxing1308/xixinxing130801493/35987272-soldier-saluting-china-s-flag.jpg] scream for president 2024[/url]
Let me wrap this up by saying that over the past 2 and a half years or so I enjoyed being on staff and serving the community. I enjoyed contributing positively to changes that benefit players across the league. However, I refuse to sit here and be treated like insignificant garbage by the owner of this league. If I am allowed, I will stick it out and be here to support advanced until the end of the season, if not, it’s been a pleasure.
In the meantime, unless significant changes are undergone over at RGL internally, I would not suggest applying to their staff unless you want to be subject to combined external and randomized internal pressure.[/quote]
[url=https://previews.123rf.com/images/xixinxing/xixinxing1308/xixinxing130801493/35987272-soldier-saluting-china-s-flag.jpg] scream for president 2024[/url]
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