I've been approached to develop a new TF2 pickup games website, similar to the old tf2.online or a fresh variation of it.
Before I start development, I'd like to gauge the community's interest and get your thoughts on what features would be most valuable and if its even necessary.
So, I have a few questions for you:
- Would you be interested in using a new pickup games website?
- What did you like or dislike about previous platforms like tf2.online or the current tf2pickup.eu?
- In terms of complexity, would you prefer:
a) A simple, straightforward site that just handles the basics of organizing and launching pickup games
b) A more feature-rich platform with additions like player stats tracking, ELO ratings, etf2l Integration , etc
- Would you prefer to use Mumble or Discord for the new system?
- Any other thoughts or feedback?
Do you think creating a new site might fragment the community or harm the existing player base? Would it be better for the TF2 scene to avoid having multiple platforms?
Depending on the feedback and the complexity of feature requests, I hope to have something playable within a week or two.
I've been approached to develop a new TF2 pickup games website, similar to the old tf2.online or a fresh variation of it.
Before I start development, I'd like to gauge the community's interest and get your thoughts on what features would be most valuable and if its even necessary.
So, I have a few questions for you:
[list]
[*] Would you be interested in using a new pickup games website?
[*] What did you like or dislike about previous platforms like tf2.online or the current tf2pickup.eu?
[*] In terms of complexity, would you prefer:
a) A simple, straightforward site that just handles the basics of organizing and launching pickup games
b) A more feature-rich platform with additions like player stats tracking, ELO ratings, etf2l Integration , etc
[*] Would you prefer to use Mumble or Discord for the new system?
[*] Any other thoughts or feedback?
[/list]
[b]Do you think creating a new site might fragment the community or harm the existing player base? Would it be better for the TF2 scene to avoid having multiple platforms?[/b]
Depending on the feedback and the complexity of feature requests, I hope to have something playable within a week or two.
Another idea I had, which I would like to get your thoughts on, is this: During peak hours (or at the discretion of admins), we could use a captain pick system, and then switch to a first-come, first-served system during off-peak hours. This could provide some regularity in when to expect high-level pugs.
Another idea I had, which I would like to get your thoughts on, is this: During peak hours (or at the discretion of admins), we could use a captain pick system, and then switch to a first-come, first-served system during off-peak hours. This could provide some regularity in when to expect high-level pugs.
This is just my opinions
copperr What did you like or dislike about previous platforms like tf2.online or the current tf2pickup.eu?
tf2.online had some decent level pugs going on, the lower level pugs were mainly due to people who were trying to captain while being considerably lower level than the players who are added up to the pug, not everyone should be able to captain.
copperr In terms of complexity, would you prefer:
I would prefer more comlex, don't think stats are that important but an elo system makes at least some players try harder than they would usually which ultimately raises the level of the pugs
copperrDo you think creating a new site might fragment the community or harm the existing player base? Would it be better for the TF2 scene to avoid having multiple platforms?
It might fragment the community but currently the tf2pickup.eu doesn't offer any quality pugs, no one takes them seriously and they don't feel balanced at all.
This is just my opinions
[quote=copperr] What did you like or dislike about previous platforms like tf2.online or the current tf2pickup.eu?
[/quote]
tf2.online had some decent level pugs going on, the lower level pugs were mainly due to people who were trying to captain while being considerably lower level than the players who are added up to the pug, not everyone should be able to captain.
[quote=copperr] In terms of complexity, would you prefer:
[/quote]
I would prefer more comlex, don't think stats are that important but an elo system makes at least some players try harder than they would usually which ultimately raises the level of the pugs
[quote=copperr]
[b]Do you think creating a new site might fragment the community or harm the existing player base? Would it be better for the TF2 scene to avoid having multiple platforms?[/b]
[/quote]
It might fragment the community but currently the tf2pickup.eu doesn't offer any quality pugs, no one takes them seriously and they don't feel balanced at all.
tf2pickup is good to give anyone a chance to play a casual game but a pug system like pugchamp is necessary to raise the level of players and provide high level games to the high div players.
Simply without a pug system, there is basically nothing to grind for high div players which has a bunch of negative consequences on the community (mostly lost of interest).
Thank you for hosting tf2.online for a while, and I'll be grateful if you revive it.
One thing to be discussed imo is the integration of elo maybe ?
tf2pickup is good to give anyone a chance to play a casual game but a pug system like pugchamp is necessary to raise the level of players and provide high level games to the high div players.
Simply without a pug system, there is basically nothing to grind for high div players which has a bunch of negative consequences on the community (mostly lost of interest).
Thank you for hosting tf2.online for a while, and I'll be grateful if you revive it.
One thing to be discussed imo is the integration of elo maybe ?
copperrWould you be interested in using a new pickup games website?
Yes, EU has been lacking high-level pugs for almost a year now.
copperr What did you like or dislike about previous platforms like tf2.online or the current tf2pickup.eu?
tf2pickup.eu service doesn't have good balancing system and won't have, because it's impossible to balance teams just in ELO rating, that's why captain picking is superior
copperr In terms of complexity, would you prefer:
a) A simple, straightforward site that just handles the basics of organizing and launching pickup games
b) A more feature-rich platform with additions like player stats tracking, ELO ratings, etf2l Integration , etc
Option B is cooler imo
copperr Would you prefer to use Mumble or Discord for the new system?
Mumble is much better for communcating in-game, since Discord audio is buggy when few people talk at once.
[quote=copperr]Would you be interested in using a new pickup games website?[/quote]
Yes, EU has been lacking high-level pugs for almost a year now.
[quote=copperr] What did you like or dislike about previous platforms like tf2.online or the current tf2pickup.eu? [/quote]
tf2pickup.eu service doesn't have good balancing system and won't have, because it's impossible to balance teams just in ELO rating, that's why captain picking is superior
[quote=copperr] In terms of complexity, would you prefer:
a) A simple, straightforward site that just handles the basics of organizing and launching pickup games
b) A more feature-rich platform with additions like player stats tracking, ELO ratings, etf2l Integration , etc [/quote]
Option B is cooler imo
[quote=copperr] Would you prefer to use Mumble or Discord for the new system? [/quote]
Mumble is much better for communcating in-game, since Discord audio is buggy when few people talk at once.
Unless I'm just out of the loop, EU has been lacking low-level pugs for a while now too. Lots of people from outside NA end up in Newbie Mixes or TF2CC and ask if there are any similar services for their region.
Something with separate divs, so high level players don't get frustrated with low level players who don't know what they're doing, and low div players don't get frustrated by getting rolled by more experienced players, might be good for everyone.
Unless I'm just out of the loop, EU has been lacking low-level pugs for a while now too. Lots of people from outside NA end up in Newbie Mixes or TF2CC and ask if there are any similar services for their region.
Something with separate divs, so high level players don't get frustrated with low level players who don't know what they're doing, and low div players don't get frustrated by getting rolled by more experienced players, might be good for everyone.
row_don't give ur mates mod
unironically copper giving his mates mod (with the exception of nasboi) was a better way of running a pug site then just having lower level onliners be admin. People kept complaining that the main issue with pugs is when the prem players start leaving. And they will do so if the admins that are supposed to police troll/low level captaining, dont have any knowledge of players skill level relative to each individual pug. A mid-level admin might be good and fair with enforcing rulesets, ban trolls, kick obvious low level captains, etc. But they wont know if the prem medic that captains an A-pug is actually capable of playing demo or if an A-pug is unbalanced based purely on the roles played, because they wont have played 1000 of those pugs in the past. They wont know which of Ys secondaries are strong or if X is doing a troll draft or not.
The downside of having familiar prem players as admins is obviously the circlejerk-argument, that admins might favor their friends when making decisions/let things slide and so on, although I will say, in my experience, the players that kept screaming CIRCLEJERK the most were usually the players that were at a skill-plateau and would get fatkidded for marginally better players (that usually were on friendly terms with the captain, which is pretty similar to how players join actual teams btw) OR they were just purely unlikeable people who would get fatkidded because they had an awful personality that their skillset didnt make up for.
Anyways, no one in our circlejerk really plays the game anymore so you wont have to worry about coppers mates being the admins. Just wanted to give my perspective on this "circlejerks ruin pugsites"-discourse that ive seen for so many years. I legit dont think circlejerks are that big of an issue in pugs (as seen on these other sites that were structured to eliminate circlejerks, and still went inactive or trolly), and I didnt think they were when I was a middie grinding pugs in 2017 either.
EDIT: I'll also add that one of the main reasons for tf2.online was that we were all whining in our friend group about how we needed a pugsite where we could just be selfish assholes and ban people we found annoying or bad. Pugs are a meritocracy where the truly good players rise organically to the top and integrate into A-pugs. They arent "gatekept" by circlejerks.
[quote=row_]don't give ur mates mod[/quote] unironically copper giving his mates mod (with the exception of nasboi) was a better way of running a pug site then just having lower level onliners be admin. People kept complaining that the main issue with pugs is when the prem players start leaving. And they will do so if the admins that are supposed to police troll/low level captaining, dont have any knowledge of players skill level relative to each individual pug. A mid-level admin might be good and fair with enforcing rulesets, ban trolls, kick obvious low level captains, etc. But they wont know if the prem medic that captains an A-pug is actually capable of playing demo or if an A-pug is unbalanced based purely on the roles played, because they wont have played 1000 of those pugs in the past. They wont know which of Ys secondaries are strong or if X is doing a troll draft or not.
The downside of having familiar prem players as admins is obviously the circlejerk-argument, that admins might favor their friends when making decisions/let things slide and so on, although I will say, in my experience, the players that kept screaming CIRCLEJERK the most were usually the players that were at a skill-plateau and would get fatkidded for marginally better players (that usually were on friendly terms with the captain, which is pretty similar to how players join actual teams btw) OR they were just purely unlikeable people who would get fatkidded because they had an awful personality that their skillset didnt make up for.
Anyways, no one in our circlejerk really plays the game anymore so you wont have to worry about coppers mates being the admins. Just wanted to give my perspective on this "circlejerks ruin pugsites"-discourse that ive seen for so many years. I legit dont think circlejerks are that big of an issue in pugs (as seen on these other sites that were structured to eliminate circlejerks, and still went inactive or trolly), and I didnt think they were when I was a middie grinding pugs in 2017 either.
EDIT: I'll also add that one of the main reasons for tf2.online was that we were all whining in our friend group about how we needed a pugsite where we could just be selfish assholes and ban people we found annoying or bad. Pugs are a meritocracy where the truly good players rise organically to the top and integrate into A-pugs. They arent "gatekept" by circlejerks.
klassy.
Even Pugchamp had the same complaints, but even then you had a some sort of regular b-pug (never really seen coppers site couldn’t say anything about that) at its peak.
[quote=klassy].[/quote]
Even Pugchamp had the same complaints, but even then you had a some sort of regular b-pug (never really seen coppers site couldn’t say anything about that) at its peak.
1- Yes
2- What I liked was to have a pugsite where we can have high level games easily. What I disliked was the mods.
3- B is cooler. But probably way harder to create than A. Just depends on you.
4- Mumble
5- Im gonna reply to that question :"Do you think creating a new site might fragment the community or harm the existing player base? Would it be better for the TF2 scene to avoid having multiple platforms?"
I contacted you about pug site few weeks ago, let it be clear I contacted to you because the prem community wants games. I don't really know what the other people think, I can only see that the prem discord is not being used and the french prem community is complaining everyday about the fact that there is no pugsite server.
It will probably divide communities, but it will still give a different type of games. We have lobbies on tf2center, no comms, no try hard. We have tf2pickup, first arrived first served, a lot of them seem to be trolled by people and also the level is low/mid. Then we'll have pugsite, try hard games, comms, the best players will play.
1- Yes
2- What I liked was to have a pugsite where we can have high level games easily. What I disliked was the mods.
3- B is cooler. But probably way harder to create than A. Just depends on you.
4- Mumble
5- Im gonna reply to that question :"Do you think creating a new site might fragment the community or harm the existing player base? Would it be better for the TF2 scene to avoid having multiple platforms?"
I contacted you about pug site few weeks ago, let it be clear I contacted to you because the prem community wants games. I don't really know what the other people think, I can only see that the prem discord is not being used and the french prem community is complaining everyday about the fact that there is no pugsite server.
It will probably divide communities, but it will still give a different type of games. We have lobbies on tf2center, no comms, no try hard. We have tf2pickup, first arrived first served, a lot of them seem to be trolled by people and also the level is low/mid. Then we'll have pugsite, try hard games, comms, the best players will play.
Imo tf2online was great (except some admins which you gave the admin were killing pugs when they got picked in a worse team) it was 100x ways better than nowadays pickups with the games being played like ass with not so skilled players sometimes and it's just boring shit to play. Still tf2online lacked of good game history, you can't just look at the games that were played, u gotta look through specific log to see it. Other than that it was good.
And I also think having a captain pick system is way better than having just pickup somehow balanced games. For higher div players it's the best option. Ofc not all of people who are taking the cap are always taking it seriously and they can just throw but it can be controlled with the right admins im pretty sure.
Imo tf2online was great (except some admins which you gave the admin were killing pugs when they got picked in a worse team) it was 100x ways better than nowadays pickups with the games being played like ass with not so skilled players sometimes and it's just boring shit to play. Still tf2online lacked of good game history, you can't just look at the games that were played, u gotta look through specific log to see it. Other than that it was good.
And I also think having a captain pick system is way better than having just pickup somehow balanced games. For higher div players it's the best option. Ofc not all of people who are taking the cap are always taking it seriously and they can just throw but it can be controlled with the right admins im pretty sure.
tf2online was really good imo, i think the only issue was that some people would just pick their friends (me being one of them), but if its too troll picky you can give that person a 24 hour ban or something like that. i personally would like to have the opportunity to play high level pugs again as i have been perma banned for 6 months now from the current prem pug discord server we have for still unclear reasons (i didnt even get a second chance it was just a straight perma ban), and i believe literally no one else has been perma banned from this discord.
tf2online was really good imo, i think the only issue was that some people would just pick their friends (me being one of them), but if its too troll picky you can give that person a 24 hour ban or something like that. i personally would like to have the opportunity to play high level pugs again as i have been perma banned for 6 months now from the current prem pug discord server we have for still unclear reasons (i didnt even get a second chance it was just a straight perma ban), and i believe literally no one else has been perma banned from this discord.
klassyrow_don't give ur mates mod
unironically copper giving his mates mod (with the exception of nasboi) was a better way of running a pug site then just having lower level onliners be admin. People kept complaining that the main issue with pugs is when the prem players start leaving. And they will do so if the admins that are supposed to police troll/low level captaining, dont have any knowledge of players skill level relative to each individual pug. A mid-level admin might be good and fair with enforcing rulesets, ban trolls, kick obvious low level captains, etc. But they wont know if the prem medic that captains an A-pug is actually capable of playing demo or if an A-pug is unbalanced based purely on the roles played, because they wont have played 1000 of those pugs in the past. They wont know which of Ys secondaries are strong or if X is doing a troll draft or not.
The downside of having familiar prem players as admins is obviously the circlejerk-argument, that admins might favor their friends when making decisions/let things slide and so on, although I will say, in my experience, the players that kept screaming CIRCLEJERK the most were usually the players that were at a skill-plateau and would get fatkidded for marginally better players (that usually were on friendly terms with the captain, which is pretty similar to how players join actual teams btw) OR they were just purely unlikeable people who would get fatkidded because they had an awful personality that their skillset didnt make up for.
Anyways, no one in our circlejerk really plays the game anymore so you wont have to worry about coppers mates being the admins. Just wanted to give my perspective on this "circlejerks ruin pugsites"-discourse that ive seen for so many years. I legit dont think circlejerks are that big of an issue in pugs (as seen on these other sites that were structured to eliminate circlejerks, and still went inactive or trolly), and I didnt think they were when I was a middie grinding pugs in 2017 either.
EDIT: I'll also add that one of the main reasons for tf2.online was that we were all whining in our friend group about how we needed a pugsite where we could just be selfish assholes and ban people we found annoying or bad. Pugs are a meritocracy where the truly good players rise organically to the top and integrate into A-pugs. They arent "gatekept" by circlejerks.
You ruined a whole generation of prem
I hope you are happy with yourself
[quote=klassy][quote=row_]don't give ur mates mod[/quote] unironically copper giving his mates mod (with the exception of nasboi) was a better way of running a pug site then just having lower level onliners be admin. People kept complaining that the main issue with pugs is when the prem players start leaving. And they will do so if the admins that are supposed to police troll/low level captaining, dont have any knowledge of players skill level relative to each individual pug. A mid-level admin might be good and fair with enforcing rulesets, ban trolls, kick obvious low level captains, etc. But they wont know if the prem medic that captains an A-pug is actually capable of playing demo or if an A-pug is unbalanced based purely on the roles played, because they wont have played 1000 of those pugs in the past. They wont know which of Ys secondaries are strong or if X is doing a troll draft or not.
The downside of having familiar prem players as admins is obviously the circlejerk-argument, that admins might favor their friends when making decisions/let things slide and so on, although I will say, in my experience, the players that kept screaming CIRCLEJERK the most were usually the players that were at a skill-plateau and would get fatkidded for marginally better players (that usually were on friendly terms with the captain, which is pretty similar to how players join actual teams btw) OR they were just purely unlikeable people who would get fatkidded because they had an awful personality that their skillset didnt make up for.
Anyways, no one in our circlejerk really plays the game anymore so you wont have to worry about coppers mates being the admins. Just wanted to give my perspective on this "circlejerks ruin pugsites"-discourse that ive seen for so many years. I legit dont think circlejerks are that big of an issue in pugs (as seen on these other sites that were structured to eliminate circlejerks, and still went inactive or trolly), and I didnt think they were when I was a middie grinding pugs in 2017 either.
EDIT: I'll also add that one of the main reasons for tf2.online was that we were all whining in our friend group about how we needed a pugsite where we could just be selfish assholes and ban people we found annoying or bad. Pugs are a meritocracy where the truly good players rise organically to the top and integrate into A-pugs. They arent "gatekept" by circlejerks.[/quote]
You ruined a whole generation of prem
I hope you are happy with yourself
1. Absolutely. There is no place to play high level games outside scrims rn.
2. Maybe couple games got killed bcs lower skilled players picked bad teams, but you can fix that by giving captain roles to certain players. Never really had problems with admins.
3. Elo makes it a bit more "competetive" which could result in better games (ppl not trolling etc.) Its not necessary tho imo. Would look more "fancy" but i understand its harder to create.
4. I think mumble is the way to go, ppl are just used to it.
5. Need admins on higher skill level to understand which players are capable of playing different classes, which players are allowed to captain and stuff like that.
Cant remember rules that were used for tf2online but offclassing for last only makes the pugs better imo. Playing against ppl that abuse 10 min offclassing on sniper is just unfun.
"Do you think creating a new site might fragment the community or harm the existing player base? Would it be better for the TF2 scene to avoid having multiple platforms?"
- About this, I just completely agree with what Cuby said above. As i said earlier there is no place to grind outside scrims and site like this will only benefit higher divs. Players from div 1/2 might get noticed and get a chance in some prem teams, stuff like that.
I got noticed years ago on pugchamp when it was still alive, stomped some noobs like Papi and SVMZI, later they picked me up and it basically started my entire demo era. It opens up ways for new upcoming talents to get recognized.
1. Absolutely. There is no place to play high level games outside scrims rn.
2. Maybe couple games got killed bcs lower skilled players picked bad teams, but you can fix that by giving captain roles to certain players. Never really had problems with admins.
3. Elo makes it a bit more "competetive" which could result in better games (ppl not trolling etc.) Its not necessary tho imo. Would look more "fancy" but i understand its harder to create.
4. I think mumble is the way to go, ppl are just used to it.
5. Need admins on higher skill level to understand which players are capable of playing different classes, which players are allowed to captain and stuff like that.
Cant remember rules that were used for tf2online but offclassing for last only makes the pugs better imo. Playing against ppl that abuse 10 min offclassing on sniper is just unfun.
"Do you think creating a new site might fragment the community or harm the existing player base? Would it be better for the TF2 scene to avoid having multiple platforms?"
- About this, I just completely agree with what Cuby said above. As i said earlier there is no place to grind outside scrims and site like this will only benefit higher divs. Players from div 1/2 might get noticed and get a chance in some prem teams, stuff like that.
I got noticed years ago on pugchamp when it was still alive, stomped some noobs like Papi and SVMZI, later they picked me up and it basically started my entire demo era. It opens up ways for new upcoming talents to get recognized.
tf2online let a guy banned for cheating play months after his ban, definitely the biggest problem and hasny even been menyioned. u gotta mirror bans
tf2online let a guy banned for cheating play months after his ban, definitely the biggest problem and hasny even been menyioned. u gotta mirror bans
ah, another pug site, another one that shall join the grave of all that came before it.
seriously we don't need another pug site just spread around the current ones, the new ones will have high traffic for maybe a month then return to what all the other ones are now
personally don't dislike anything about the websites themselves, i think many people share my opinion that the main problem with many pug sites is the same 5-10 people that literally constantly play pugs that everyone dislikes. they're not deserving of a ban cuz that's just their personality but nobody wants to play with them because they're not likable and they're 24/7 on
in the same vein, stop being toxic to new/bad players and they'll stick around and keep playing, being toxic to eachother just makes everyone that would be playing quit to go play tf2c. or just wait for their scrims
ah, another pug site, another one that shall join the grave of all that came before it.
seriously we don't need another pug site just spread around the current ones, the new ones will have high traffic for maybe a month then return to what all the other ones are now
personally don't dislike anything about the websites themselves, i think many people share my opinion that the main problem with many pug sites is the same 5-10 people that literally constantly play pugs that everyone dislikes. they're not deserving of a ban cuz that's just their personality but nobody wants to play with them because they're not likable and they're 24/7 on
in the same vein, stop being toxic to new/bad players and they'll stick around and keep playing, being toxic to eachother just makes everyone that would be playing quit to go play tf2c. or just wait for their scrims
This is my opinion, as a med-main, non-prem player:
copperr Would you be interested in using a new pickup games website?
Only one that caters towards high-div players that rewards serious play and not trolling.
Even those who wouldn't play, this would encourage more prem players playing and streaming - generating hype around the game and giving content to the rest of us low div players
copperrWhat did you like or dislike about previous platforms like tf2.online or the current tf2pickup.eu?
tf2.online:
+ More frequent higher-skilled, serious games
+ More frequent balanced games
+ Metrics
- Pugs took forever to start sometimes
- Not used as much because people got fat-kidded in the A pug and leave, instead of making a B or C pug
tf2pickup.eu:
+ Pug starts in 5m or less
+ Guaranteed playtime if the pug starts
- No higher-skilled, serious games
- Less frequent balanced games
copperrIn terms of complexity, would you prefer:
a) A simple, straightforward site that just handles the basics of organizing and launching pickup games
b) A more feature-rich platform with additions like player stats tracking, ELO ratings, etf2l Integration , etc
B for sure, we already have A.
copperrWould you prefer to use Mumble or Discord for the new system?
Now this is a tricky one. I would have said Mumble, since we're already used to it and realistically everyone who would play the new pickup site already has it installed and knows how to use it. However, I do remember the times jeven/malarz would troll the channels and tbh who really knows mumble that well to bother stopping them if they started again?
You could use discord the same way RGL pugs do it. They make 2 new red and blu discord vc's per pug, and only you and your teammates can join it during the game. Basically, removes external trolls altogether. The stigma that discord has bad voice quality/bad hardware usage isn't common as much anymore imo, more like a placebo at this point.
copperrAny other thoughts or feedback?
It's going to be tough but I think you can bring the benefits of tf2pickup and tf2online together. I think you should really take all the time you need copperr and thoroughly work through what this new site will bring.
If you half-ass it this time, it's only inevitable that it will die within a year. Seriously look at all the pros and cons of pugchamp, tf2pickup, tf2online, rgl pugs - hell even rahmix - as long as everything is thought out rigorously this time.
One thing I want on this new site is some form of repercussions for being late or troll picking or whatever. You can copy the pickup system of joining the server within 5m, and also have a vetting system for captains. I.e. you have to apply to be a captain by submitting your ETF2L and you admins can verify them to captain up or not.
copperrDo you think creating a new site might fragment the community or harm the existing player base? Would it be better for the TF2 scene to avoid having multiple platforms?
I don't think this will harm the existing player base, of puggers that is. If anything, the success of a new site can be fruitful towards non-puggers playing with their friends in a chill, non-serious way in tf2pickup as all the prem players would be adding up on the new site. Pretty much all the prem players that don't play pickup will play on the new site anyway, and that will leave pickup either empty or all filled with low/mid players - which is fine! This could make the site more balanced, becoming a haven for these players, instead of playing god-awful matches on tf2center where they don't even communicate.
I know I won't be picked in the A or even B pugs on the new site if it ever goes up, but the benefits of having more prem players playing - and old players returning - is definitely a net positive for the community. I honestly believe EU is lacking behind NA, simply because of the pugging culture here literally died out.
Truth is, pugs are great because of the people. The new site needs to reward good, high-skilled, serious players in a way that trickles down to other players playing like that too.
This is my opinion, as a med-main, non-prem player:
[quote=copperr] Would you be interested in using a new pickup games website?[/quote]
Only one that caters towards high-div players that rewards serious play and not trolling.
Even those who wouldn't play, this would encourage more prem players playing and streaming - generating hype around the game and giving content to the rest of us low div players
[quote=copperr]What did you like or dislike about previous platforms like tf2.online or the current tf2pickup.eu?[/quote]
[b]tf2.online:[/b]
+ More frequent higher-skilled, serious games
+ More frequent balanced games
+ Metrics
- Pugs took forever to start sometimes
- Not used as much because people got fat-kidded in the A pug and leave, instead of making a B or C pug
[b]tf2pickup.eu:[/b]
+ Pug starts in 5m or less
+ Guaranteed playtime if the pug starts
- No higher-skilled, serious games
- Less frequent balanced games
[quote=copperr]In terms of complexity, would you prefer:
a) A simple, straightforward site that just handles the basics of organizing and launching pickup games
b) A more feature-rich platform with additions like player stats tracking, ELO ratings, etf2l Integration , etc[/quote]
B for sure, we already have A.
[quote=copperr]Would you prefer to use Mumble or Discord for the new system?[/quote]
Now this is a tricky one. I would have said Mumble, since we're already used to it and realistically everyone who would play the new pickup site already has it installed and knows how to use it. However, I do remember the times jeven/malarz would troll the channels and tbh who really knows mumble that well to bother stopping them if they started again?
You could use discord the same way RGL pugs do it. They make 2 new red and blu discord vc's per pug, and only you and your teammates can join it during the game. Basically, removes external trolls altogether. The stigma that discord has bad voice quality/bad hardware usage isn't common as much anymore imo, more like a placebo at this point.
[quote=copperr]Any other thoughts or feedback?[/quote]
It's going to be tough but I think you can bring the benefits of tf2pickup and tf2online together. I think you should really take all the time you need copperr and thoroughly work through what this new site will bring.
If you half-ass it this time, it's only inevitable that it will die within a year. Seriously look at all the pros and cons of pugchamp, tf2pickup, tf2online, rgl pugs - hell even rahmix - as long as everything is thought out rigorously this time.
One thing I want on this new site is some form of repercussions for being late or troll picking or whatever. You can copy the pickup system of joining the server within 5m, and also have a vetting system for captains. I.e. you have to apply to be a captain by submitting your ETF2L and you admins can verify them to captain up or not.
[quote=copperr][b]Do you think creating a new site might fragment the community or harm the existing player base? Would it be better for the TF2 scene to avoid having multiple platforms?[/b][/quote]
I don't think this will harm the existing player base, of puggers that is. If anything, the success of a new site can be fruitful towards non-puggers playing with their friends in a chill, non-serious way in tf2pickup as all the prem players would be adding up on the new site. Pretty much all the prem players that don't play pickup will play on the new site anyway, and that will leave pickup either empty or all filled with low/mid players - which is fine! This could make the site more balanced, becoming a haven for these players, instead of playing god-awful matches on tf2center where they don't even communicate.
I know I won't be picked in the A or even B pugs on the new site if it ever goes up, but the benefits of having more prem players playing - and old players returning - is definitely a net positive for the community. I honestly believe EU is lacking behind NA, simply because of the pugging culture here literally died out.
Truth is, pugs are great because of the people. The new site needs to reward good, high-skilled, serious players in a way that trickles down to other players playing like that too.
Maktf2online let a guy banned for cheating play months after his ban, definitely the biggest problem and hasny even been menyioned. u gotta mirror bans
Who are you referring to?
https://i.ibb.co/pLQFQb7/1.webp
https://i.ibb.co/bdLMZ3D/2.jpg
[quote=Mak]tf2online let a guy banned for cheating play months after his ban, definitely the biggest problem and hasny even been menyioned. u gotta mirror bans[/quote]
Who are you referring to?
[img]https://i.ibb.co/pLQFQb7/1.webp[/img]
[img]https://i.ibb.co/bdLMZ3D/2.jpg[/img]
what ruined tf2.online in my mind was people picking friend teams over the best teams which dropped the quality of pugs.
so just make it so if you captain and you don't pick "the best team" possible be considered trolling the pug and captain bannable.
what ruined tf2.online in my mind was people picking friend teams over the best teams which dropped the quality of pugs.
so just make it so if you captain and you don't pick "the best team" possible be considered trolling the pug and captain bannable.
i like mumble a lot more than discord, but a lot of newer players have never heard of mumble and discord is just a lot more commonly used nowadays so i would have to opt for that
i like mumble a lot more than discord, but a lot of newer players have never heard of mumble and discord is just a lot more commonly used nowadays so i would have to opt for that
For me at least I think a pug system can be successful with the following:
- Game not starting within 5 minutes will end the pug and ban the players who didn't join for 24 hours. Don't add up if you're not ready to play. It's not that hard.
- 24 hour ban if subbed after a certain amount of games (3 subbed = 24 hours ban, then reset)
- Clear mumble channels after game ends. It was really annoying joining a mumble channel to play and it's filled with 5+ people from the last game screaming at each other. Just move everyone to a post game channel afterwards.
- Mirror bans from ETF2L.
I like the idea of having captains at peak times and having ELO tied to games that are captained at least.
I think the biggest challenge is the moderation. And I think it actually applies a lot more to the B pugs mainly. As those are the ones that end up just getting ruined by a captain that was desperate to put themselves on scout.
The system where if you got 5-0'd you got a captain ban was a good idea. But I'd like to see a decent report system for players/captains. Not to report for the skill level part but mainly for the behavior.
For me at least I think a pug system can be successful with the following:
- Game not starting within 5 minutes will end the pug and ban the players who didn't join for 24 hours. Don't add up if you're not ready to play. It's not that hard.
- 24 hour ban if subbed after a certain amount of games (3 subbed = 24 hours ban, then reset)
- Clear mumble channels after game ends. It was really annoying joining a mumble channel to play and it's filled with 5+ people from the last game screaming at each other. Just move everyone to a post game channel afterwards.
- Mirror bans from ETF2L.
I like the idea of having captains at peak times and having ELO tied to games that are captained at least.
I think the biggest challenge is the moderation. And I think it actually applies a lot more to the B pugs mainly. As those are the ones that end up just getting ruined by a captain that was desperate to put themselves on scout.
The system where if you got 5-0'd you got a captain ban was a good idea. But I'd like to see a decent report system for players/captains. Not to report for the skill level part but mainly for the behavior.
On paper tf2pickup.eu was a good replacement for tf2.online but in hindsight its completely ruined high level pugging in eu. The automatic hidden elo based balancing on tf2pickup.eu doesn't really work and I don't think its actually even possible to make it work properly. The only way to create good balanced pugs is a pick/ban system.
I also think there should be a 5 minute join timer. U shouldn't have to wait 15 minutes for people to join the server because someone had to do their laundry after they readied up? Also it tends to be the same people who are always late to join those games, there should be a system that bans you after you fail to join within a given timeframe enough times.
Ready up -> join server -> play. 5 minutes is more than enough time to do that
And please make it use mumble. Discord voice is garbage bloatware that makes ur game lag
On paper tf2pickup.eu was a good replacement for tf2.online but in hindsight its completely ruined high level pugging in eu. The automatic hidden elo based balancing on tf2pickup.eu doesn't really work and I don't think its actually even possible to make it work properly. The only way to create good balanced pugs is a pick/ban system.
I also think there should be a 5 minute join timer. U shouldn't have to wait 15 minutes for people to join the server because someone had to do their laundry after they readied up? Also it tends to be the same people who are always late to join those games, there should be a system that bans you after you fail to join within a given timeframe enough times.
Ready up -> join server -> play. 5 minutes is more than enough time to do that
And please make it use mumble. Discord voice is garbage bloatware that makes ur game lag
can we just bring back tf2stadium
can we just bring back tf2stadium
yo i know im not a prem player myself but the last like 3-4 times d1/invite pugs were made they seemed to die off within the span of 1-2 months
like it honestly feels kinda like clockwork that we have general pugs ->d1/prem players complain about low skill level -> make their own seperate system -> prem pugs die after a month
am i just seeing things? i feel like you could go back to the tf2online threads, the pugchamp threads, the rahmix/prem rahmix threads and you could find all of these posts word for word
like i said im not a prem player myself but honestly the last few years make it seem like d1/prem player pugs are just destined to die and only really manage to fracture the playerbase
yo i know im not a prem player myself but the last like 3-4 times d1/invite pugs were made they seemed to die off within the span of 1-2 months
like it honestly feels kinda like clockwork that we have general pugs ->d1/prem players complain about low skill level -> make their own seperate system -> prem pugs die after a month
am i just seeing things? i feel like you could go back to the tf2online threads, the pugchamp threads, the rahmix/prem rahmix threads and you could find all of these posts word for word
like i said im not a prem player myself but honestly the last few years make it seem like d1/prem player pugs are just destined to die and only really manage to fracture the playerbase
tf2.online was fine until tf2pickup.eu came
tf2.online was fine until tf2pickup.eu came
Wandumyo i know im not a prem player myself but the last like 3-4 times d1/invite pugs were made they seemed to die off within the span of 1-2 months
like it honestly feels kinda like clockwork that we have general pugs ->d1/prem players complain about low skill level -> make their own seperate system -> prem pugs die after a month
am i just seeing things? i feel like you could go back to the tf2online threads, the pugchamp threads, the rahmix/prem rahmix threads and you could find all of these posts word for word
like i said im not a prem player myself but honestly the last few years make it seem like d1/prem player pugs are just destined to die and only really manage to fracture the playerbase
Activity is definitely the deciding factor. There is always a snowball effect going on where prem players increase the amount of other prem players (who want to play high level pugs) and "normal" players (who want to play against the prem players). When the regulars who usually get the pugs going stop playing it will lead to the discord/site slowly fading into obscurity. We just don't have enough players at the top to have them going 24/7
[quote=Wandum]yo i know im not a prem player myself but the last like 3-4 times d1/invite pugs were made they seemed to die off within the span of 1-2 months
like it honestly feels kinda like clockwork that we have general pugs ->d1/prem players complain about low skill level -> make their own seperate system -> prem pugs die after a month
am i just seeing things? i feel like you could go back to the tf2online threads, the pugchamp threads, the rahmix/prem rahmix threads and you could find all of these posts word for word
like i said im not a prem player myself but honestly the last few years make it seem like d1/prem player pugs are just destined to die and only really manage to fracture the playerbase[/quote]
Activity is definitely the deciding factor. There is always a snowball effect going on where prem players increase the amount of other prem players (who want to play high level pugs) and "normal" players (who want to play against the prem players). When the regulars who usually get the pugs going stop playing it will lead to the discord/site slowly fading into obscurity. We just don't have enough players at the top to have them going 24/7
TF2Pickup is fun to play random classes
I don't like the picking between maps with awful map pool
I don't sign up to play medic if I have to choose between Bagel, Product or Metalworks
ELO is cool, people try harder
gl making this new site
TF2Pickup is fun to play random classes
I don't like the picking between maps with awful map pool
I don't sign up to play medic if I have to choose between Bagel, Product or Metalworks
ELO is cool, people try harder
gl making this new site