Yes.

Please elaborate. Why are we doing A/D wrong?

You guys could try Mountainlab? It's the only on other A/D map I can think of.

It seems like rolling A/D maps might be better since it promotes a lot of teamwork on just one point, rather than splitting up to capture each point. From what I've heard that's the biggest complaint about A/D in 6s, but I'm very out of the loop so I don't really know.

is gorge too big

no

This post was about the post above, and makes no sense now.

Mountainlab is definitely too big

If mountainlab had a forward spawn it might not be that bad.

After the second point is capped? I could see that being a decent idea.

Isn't there a door that looks like it could be a spawn door at 2nd actually?

If we want to add things to Mountain Lab, we could actually make a technically new map.

You see, if you didn't know, Mountain Lab (and Mann Manor) were the winning entries in the TF2Maps Artpass Contest (Artpassing is the act of detailing a map). An unfinished Valve map was (available for download, and participants were to do an artpass on it.

The original map is actually still available here: http://artpass.tf2maps.net/. I might use this as a starting point for a "new" map for competitive (even though I've never actually finished a map before - although the layout is mostly done here anyway).

Edit: About the potential spawn location: I assume you mean this?
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/919015595720213586/A2ABA466832CFF72D6023416F334F925E92C9027/

It does look like a spawn, but the exit is angled the wrong way. Flip it and it should be good.

I think we need more A&D maps. Valve said they can't support 6s because there isn't enough "room for innovation" or whatever, but there are ton's of possible strategies on A&D maps. My UGC 6s cardboard match on ediface saw all 9 classes being used effectively at various points through the game.

No, it's because they don't want to make maps for 5% of their population when they could be making maps for 75+% of their audience.

Don't know if dustbowl is worth of a mention, since the time on the last point is ridiculous. I believe it's like holding for 20 minutes which is insane.

Can't we just repurpose a Payload map? Remove the cart and replace each stage with a CP.

The reason why we don't have PL in 6s is because if one person is dedicated to cart pushing then it's really a 5v6 most of the time and since most payload maps are pretty defensively orientated (set hold points where you can't push without making a pick) it's a pretty big disadvantage.

Doesn't that satisfy the criteria of it being a "Attack/Defend" map?

It seems to me most PL maps play out like a successive CP layout anyway. Take BW for example, for Blue to advance they first have to "capture" the starting cliff above tunnel, then they capture the roof, then they capture corner. Instead of actual cap points we just have loosely defined strongholds that must be broken.

Taking a popular PL map (looking at you badwater) would also make it more pubbers and spectator friendly. And a lot of the "meta" of these maps would be directly transferable from pub and HL.

Why exactly isn't Gorge liked?

too grey

Too much indoors and ceiling.

Jas I think you are glossing over some pretty important details about payload. The reason payload is not in 6s is because payload by definition slows the run of play. What I mean by "slows the run of play" is that the distance between each capture point that he cart must traverse effectively removes any sort of transition play that we see in 6s. For example if the highlander combo moved up too far beyond the cart and got killed, then the cart can be easily defended without the attacking team having captured the next point. Slower play works for highlander because highlander is about each team setting up their front which allows the pick classes (soldier,spy,sniper,scout) to go to work. In contrast 6s is all about the transition where the fights between points after picks and advantages determine the winner.

So the fundamental problem remains that attack/defend maps just lack the capacity for transition play because one team (defenders) have no reason to move into the other team like we see in 5 cp maps.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have thought about this a couple of times and I've wondered if we've been playing A/D wrong too. It may not even be so much as us playing it wrong. It may just not be the best game mode to play in a 6v6 environment. The maps aren't really "too big", but technically you're supposed to put your focus on two completely different places at once, at least until one of the two initial points are captured. With there only being 6 players, let alone one medic, it seemingly makes it pointless to defend two points instead of only one. Well, unless you perfect the iron man(?) strat, which is pretty much the only available alternative. Even still, a team could just waste their uber beating that strat since there is no medic and get their uber back pretty quickly before attacking B with, at least what would seem like no real loss in time.

Taking a few seconds more, for example, can always end up hurting your chances of winning, but it's nowhere near guaranteed.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is with the way A/D works and the fact that we play 6s, it has seemed kind of pointless to try and defend both points at once nearly 100% of the time.

Why even play a game mode that we're technically not playing correctly? I know the game wasn't made around playing it competitively, but A/D seems like a game mode directly meant for pubbing, or highlander at the most (even still, only one medic). It's really just a medic issue. That's not really the only issue, but it's probably the biggest one.

This kind of reminds me of Standin. At most, it's best to only try capping two points at once. Even then, you're kind of stretching it if most of their team (including med) decides to stop the part of your team without a medic from capping, while like one or two of their players cap uncontested.

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I've seen it.

It slows the run of play only because there is a cap on the speed of the cart and the faster you push the cart the less players are available to fight. If you only had control points and no cart to push and everyone is available to fight then there wouldn't be these limitations.

i would recommend cp_bladeend64_72 when he eventually names it something better. hands down, my favorite map made in the 72hr mapping contest. its a lot like gorge, but better imo. 2nd half isnt entirely indoors which is nice.

http://forums.tf2maps.net/showpost.php?p=287867&postcount=7

doing a/d at all is doing a/d wrong. The only thing edifice has going for it is that no one has played it yet.

I'm gonna mess around with the mountainlab template today and see what comes of it, looks like it could be fun to play.

I honestly hate all cp maps for 6's. They don't work for 6's

what

should we play PL or PLR instead??

A/D isn't a good mode for sixes.
CTF isn't a good mode for sixes.
PL isn't a good mode for sixes.

Realistically, the only modes that ARE good for sixes are 5CP, koth, and (in my opinion) sd (given a less terrible map would be made, since it's basically BBall.)
Payload could work if it was more concrete (maps had more solid control points and were shorter), and the cart moved unless stopped.
A/D won't work and CTF won't work.

thanks for that well reasoned argument dr ploxo up til now i thought i had played 7 seasons of tf2 and enjoyed myself on gravelpit every season but your well reasoned argument has convincingly shown that the map did not work and i actually hated it

dude he's just telling you the facts

wake up!