The maps are too big.

Because with 1 person pushing the cart you are playing 5v6 half the game.

Not enough players available to push the cart AND attack the other team, you're stuck doing one thing or the other.

http://www.ugcleague.com/players_page.cfm?player_id=76561197997123353

6s is supposed to be dynamic and fast paced. Pl is a game mode built for off-classes and stalemates.

No I dont play 6s. Thats why I have questions about it.

I think payload could work honestly. People are probably just unwilling to try it seriously.

At this point we banned gpit for some dumb reason and I'm down to try a season of figuring out payload strats for 6's instead of playing some cp_underdeveloped_b6 for the 5th season in a row.

I think the major downside people would throw out there is that it's "slow paced." No matter how hard you roll a team in a fight, you still have to push the cart, so they may have spawns in time to stop the next cap point.

On the plus side, every class becomes viable, and we get to see the development of the "metagame" like when we first started playing viaduct.

TL;DR: People would bitch but it might actually work.

The current 6's gameplay style originated when the payload gametype didn't exist. When comp TF2 was starting out, it was discovered that the game mode that was the most fun to play (at the time) was 5cp. Because of this, 6's was designed to offer the most fun gameplay on those types of maps and doesn't really work well for other types of gamemodes.

I agree. I've done some pugs with 6s payload, and it lends itself to be very friendly for off-classing. Teams usually find a way around just sticking a scout on the cart, and like seanbud says, it contributes to an evolving "metagame." I think it's variable on the map though. Badwater and perhaps Upward could potentially be fun, but massive maps like Swiftwater are just pure agony. Perhaps there could be a 6s mode where x1 on the cart is equal to x3 for highland. Also, I kind of want to see it on short 3 map payloads, like Goldrush and Hoodoo. Just to see.

make the cart go fastest at x6 so red has to time attacks and blu has to be constantly alert and ready to defend (viz coordinated) while pushing it

don't know if that's possible, but it would make things a little more complex than just having a scout push it while the rest of the team does whatever

With a fast moving cart, hoodoo could be interesting - Goldrush might be a bit much... being as the third map is sooo hard to get traction on.

But the truth is, I will miss gpit.

The only problem I have with payload in 6s is the attacking team is forced to go through specific chokes that makes their uber really easy to kite. If they made a payload map where the movement of the cart could have a few different paths so you could avoid some really chokepoint infested areas it could work.

why are people -fragging? this is a legitimate question, although the answer is pretty clear. people are literally just -fragging every question that might genuinely be curious about why the meta is the meta

The way most good PL maps are designed, there are two paths:
1. The path the cart takes, which is easily spammed and chokey.
2. The area youre supposed to push and contest to make pushing the cart easier(badwater 2nd roof, or upward 2nd hill/attic).

Teams dont usually push through the cart paths with uber. Why doesnt the cart just go over the area youre supposed to contest? I have no idea, im not a mapper.

payload in general sounds like complete roamer heaven

do whatever you want and you literally cannot be blamed for anything. engineer offclass, spy offclass, sniper offclass, backburner is actually viable here offclass, heavy offclass oh god i'm erect

The way you contest an area in 6s is completely different than how you would in hl. There's no areas where you are "supposed to fight". The objective is to capture the point, but how you go about doing is hugely focused on uber/player/positioning advantages. It might be a little bit like that in highlander but the consequences are far less severe. If you go 1 person down in highlander the entire team doesn't need to concede the area. If you wipe at mid and there med stays alive you're not completely fucked... The transition plays in highlander are slow enough to have a competitive time for each team.

stickies

I think the main reason Payload isn't played in 6v6 is simply because if you're playing Payload, you might as well play Highlander. The weapon bans and class bans in 6s is balanced around the mobile, to-and-fro atmosphere of 5CP and to an extent KOTH. I guess if I was playing 6s on badwater defense or something i'd run a pocket heavy, a demo, a sniper, a roamer, a med and an engy. On offense, a cart heavy, a med, a demo, a pocket solly, a sniper and a scout. If you're using those kinds of classes it would probably be smoother and more enjoyable playing HL anyway.

Payload can work in 6vs6 but I do not feel it is as exciting to play as the other game modes.

It's a lot more spectator friendly though (new people can easily work out what is going on) and as the majority of public players tend to play PL maps, it would bring the public and competitive scenes closer together (which is a very good thing for the competitive game).

With that said, I can't imagine I'd enjoy playing it very much, but the game mode certainly can work in 6vs6. The good thing about the game mode is that even if a map is extremely hard to finish, there's still the stopwatch for the other capture points, so it still plays reasonably well.

It's honestly all about pace of 6s vs HL. 6s is more DM based whereas HL is objective based. 6s work best in uniform maps but HL can work in uniform/dynamic maps.

A small win in a 5cp map takes about 15 seconds and basically has an immediate incentive. Imagine a 6s midfight, and everyone dies besides a Soldier. Soldier caps mid in 15 seconds with no worry of someone contesting him and the team gets forward spawn, winning mid.

Put a 6s team in Upward or Badwater. Same situation, Blue Soldier lives after the fight... but it takes something like 30 - 45 seconds for him to get to the first checkpoint. Well, Red team would have respawned by then and contested. Second, there's no immediate incentive like forward spawns or reduced respawn time even if the Blue Soldier somehow got to the first checkpoint, but Red team's fight is closer to the PL.

but there are no stalemates in PL.

is this roodit

A linear (A->B->C) A/D cp map is payload without all of the restrictions that would make it boring/slow. So let's talk about that instead

cp_badwater looks nice so far

I think it boils down to the fact that if you want to make progress, you have to have one person on the cart, so for many situations you'll be playing at a one player disadvantage.

Maybe if some of the maps (Badwater and Upward, namely) were converted to A/D maps and people started pugging them and whatnot to identify problems (I can see Badwater having some pretty absurd sniper sightlines for example), we might get somewhere.

I haven't tracked the progress of this map too much, but are they cutting down on the size at all? Badwater would be absurdly big in 6v6.

I like the concept of a linear A/D map being introduced. It would allow for some of the other classes to shine in 6s, which would give some variety to the players as well as make the game a bit more fun for casual players to follow. I know plenty of 6s players who want no part of heavy/engy/sniper/etc in their game, but I'm in the camp that thinks this would be a positive change, if only for one week out of the season.

BADWATER IN 6S????? SIGN ME UP

Would it work if the attacking team had an extra player who only pushes the cart, but can't shoot anyone? Obviously he dies when his team gets wiped. He can be called the team mascot.

What if the cart provided more health (currently it provides 10 a second)? The flank classes could return to the cart during the team fights instead of to health packs and push the cart while doing so, making pushing the cart a part feasible during a fight rather than before/after, and if the cart provided noticeable health then theoretically (though theory often falls short) BLU would have a decent health advantage to offset the player advantage.

That being said, I have no idea how feasible this is for a map editor to do and this is only theorycrafting.