Even those situational spots become cookie cutter. The only exception is gunslinger where you randomly throw it around to help, and it takes much less skill to put one down because of how easy it is to afford two and they build fast/heal. There are only so many effective places to put a normal sentry before it becomes cookie cutter.

To me, 6s is much more dependent on teamwork, or at least at the levels I've played at. Everyone in my team knows that they have a role to play in the team, and that if they do not adhere to their role adequately, the team will face the consequences. In 6s, I feel that I know each member of my team much more than I have for any HL teammate I have had, and that group dynamic is what teamwork strives on.

Off-classing, as annoying as it can become in 6s, is essential as it adds that bit of variety. It maintains an element of paranoia that keeps your team thinking on their feet, whereas in HL the paranoia comes from weapon choices, and there are a fair share of unlocks just feel gimmicky.

Also, the obsessive compulsive part of me doesn't like asymmetrical maps.

On cp maps, HL is just not fun unless you are playing classes like demo or spy or sniper (imo).

A/D maps are kind of weird because of constant sniper/spy. Pretty much hope those classes get really good picks. At the last point (I'm pretty much thinking only of Gpit at this point) A/D ends up being closer to the ebb and flow of 6s CP because teams actually push at the same time (rather than the random spamfest of 9v9 CP).

Koth maps are good as they simplify the CP/AD objective into a pure fight in pretty much one position.

PL, in my experience, is the perfect game mode for highlander. Every class has a role to play that is at least somewhat interesting (besides scout on offense rip you) and it forces organization. Pushing and holding occur at predetermined points (usually) and teams are pushed to actually consider advantages like uber, players, positioning, sentries, etc.

I really don't enjoy playing highlander in anything but koth and PL, and I think a lot of people agree. Those game modes just suit the flow of 9v9 much better.

Sorry didn't set out to write an essay but this is what I got :X.

TL;DR payload and koth are really good for HL, other game modes not so much, thats where a lot of complaints come from.

If they made airblasts work more like the FaN and less like the dumbest thing in the world I'd save a lot of money on broken keyboards and blood pressure medication

So many of you are taking my post and trying to refute what I say or simply state that most of those items aren't used because they're bad. You are missing the point entirely. The question was, "why do so many people bash 9v9".

Yes, I have played on platinum highlander teams and for the most part, it is somewhat enjoyable. The fact remains that even high level games do have a higher degree of "pseudo-randomness" (a quote that was bastardized) that 6v6 players find to be less than fun.

You argue that mini-crits are never actually "random" and I don't disagree--I said "pseudo-random" for a reason. If you do not know the difference, I urge you to look it up. A pyro who right-clicks to puff an enemy up in the air and happens to reflect a pipe or rocket that he did not see (which in turn becomes a critical and kills an enemy) does not result in a random critical, but it is definitely pseudo-random.

My list of weapons is not intended to be the end-all be-all list of overpowered weapons. It is merely my opinion of what's included in the UGC 9v9 HL ruleset that results in people thinking the game mode is a joke. Some of them are ridiculously strong, while others make an individual's ability to maintain aiming and dodging less valuable by adding little to the game other than excessive amounts of pseudo-randomness.

This is the very point! Many people agree that a full-time sentry gun adds nothing fun to the game. It is precisely why they do not play HL and is one of the many answers to the original question in this thread.

Yes, this is exactly what I mean when I say pseudo-random. Sure, the server sees it as a backstab due to many different elements, but frequently neither player sees it as a backstab and that is why it is pseudo-random. A pyro fires a flare across the map at an enemy... That flare ignites a cloaked spy who happened to be in a straight line of sight between the pyro and his teammate. Are you telling me that is not the very definition of pseudo-random? Your comment about good pyros checking spots is what I meant when I said that one reason people bash 9v9 is because one of the -primary- roles is to have a player who spins every few seconds clicking pseudo-randomly in hopes that he will ignite a cloaked/disguised spy. Spy checking is not a "skill". It is not something you need to take time to master. You simply have to spin and click frequently. Sure, you can check common spots, which you will learn by playing, but I'd be hard pressed to call that a skill. And yes, players being out of position will happen in 6v6 as well. The chances of it spoiling an otherwise great play are lower because the player making the great play is more likely to win the altercation due to fewer total enemies and fewer pseudo-random events.

1) You are trying to validate why things happen, but this is not an argument. I understand facestabs are not a fault of highlander in and of itself. Among other things, I am trying to get the idea across that the prevalence of facestabs is much much higher in HL because there are always 2 spies and that is one of the reasons why 9v9 is so frequently bashed or passed off as a joke.
2) Caber does 149 + 35 for the hit itself, which means instantly killing a medic. Yes, bombing is a mechanism in every game mode. The only weapon in 6v6 that will allow you to bomb and instakill a medic is the market gardener, which is just as stupid and unnecessary as the caber. The difference? You have to hit the medic with the market gardener before you land (or exploit the bunnyhopping bug which is quite difficult) whereas a demo just has to touch a medic. Sure, the demo is putting out no other damage, which would be devastating in 6v6, but in 9v9, when you are going for a medic pick/force, is it a problem? Not really.
3) No. Just, no.

Are...you...serious?!?!?!?!? If you think jarate is anything less than absolutely incredible, I run the risk of sounding elitist by telling you that you have no clue about anything at all.

Once again, I will say--
You are welcome to disagree with my assessment of the weapons and situations. I am not presenting them as things that immediately need banned. I am not even presenting them as weapons that are so overpowered they should be used all the time. The UGC 9v9 ruleset is yours and I am not urging anyone to change it. I am merely saying that their absence in the UGC list of prohibited weapons is one (or 45) reason(s) people look down upon 9v9 UGC HL.

permastun and aimbot in an FPS... LOL

this thread is really stupid

I played UGC-platinum and never played esea-invite and I can say without a doubt that for me highlander is much simpler and easier to play than 6v6. There is no coordination in high levels of highlander, it's just see how much you can out dm the other person playing your class on the other team. Everyone seems to have different objectives on how to push or where to go or how to defend, and it's impossible to effectively coordinate an all team push or defense because there are many elements you don't see. Maybe your combo is out of position and the rest of your team is in position, or you lost your flank because they're hurt and can't follow up. There's just too much nonsense to keep track of in a game of highlander so it becomes a dm/spam fest with comms that don't really matter as much as they should. If everyone on the team stopped talking it'd probably be the same result as if everyone had voice activity on. It's also impossible to talk or review with your entire team since they only show up for scrims once a week, so trying to improve as a team is almost impossible anyways. Maybe it's changed since then, but I will always view highlander as a glorified pub with mumble.

it's ok

I've never heard someone in HL say "spy down, let's push".. Whereas a man advantage in 6s can make a much bigger difference.

I like the theory-crafting of highlander, part of the reason why pl is such a good gamemode in my opinion is the potential for new ideas. It's good and fun to do standard holds and rely on dm, but the real strength of highlander is the skill that occurs before Monday. Which is another reason why I like gravel pit and steel. I understand that 6v6 has this to an extent but hl does it better with the addition of engineer heavy and pyro. 5cp doesn't really have that aspect of theory-crafting that the other maps have and is why I don't have as much fun with them. Idk just my $0.02. I like both formats a lot and if you have a preference then that's you, but they both require skill, just different kinds.

that makes no sense

My issue with HL is just that it takes so long to get together.

If I want to in house 6s pug, I can get 12 people in a mumble willing to dick around relatively quickly. I can go from "maybe" to "ready to go" in roughly 10 minutes. HL takes roughly an hour to get started.

I have never had a 6s scrim start more than 10 minutes late. I have never had an HL scrim start LESS than 10 minutes late.

I don't have time to sit around in a slowly filling server and do nothing. If I'm taking time from my day to play videogames, I want to play videogames.

All that said, I actually do enjoy the HL gamemode quite a bit, even if I almost never play it these days.

If you're looking at it from an esports perspective, the resources thing is kinda true. It's this weird harry potter-esque "neither can live while the other survives" thing. The fact they both exist is a testament to the fact that there's enough people willing to play both, but realistically when you have two competing game modes trying to be the incarnation of competitive TF2, it's hard to present it to sponsors, ignoring entirely that it means you have double the work to cover, cast, play, manage, admin, etc.

I think some of that is just because there's no explicit hierarchy, just an implicit/inherent one. The infrastructure could be reused, but it's not, because the game modes are artificially viewed as competing. I wish I knew more about etf2l so I could comment on a league that does seem to successfully integrate HL/6s.

There's also a lack of incentive for HL content creators to continue creating content. It might be a fun thing for them to do, but the nature of the HL community has resulted in a lot of... misplaced entitlement. People think the high level games *deserve* to be cast but don't seem to be willing to work to help that happen. People who have cast HL or other formats are called out for not casting specific games, as if they're the ones letting the HL community down instead of all of the people who refuse to be involved at that level.

This should be framed and made an article or something. All truth

Does UGC still have that invite limit thing

Not for platinum. For other divs it's 3 per team.

Bad in a "I wouldn't allow it either" way. I guess that came out wrong.
While I'm here might as well comment on bombing. Caber does 149 direct damage + melee damage, I'm aware of that. For melee damage to count you have to directly attack medic, which is not different from market gardener. If you let anyone that close to medic, he is pretty much doomed. HL meta slightly changed past few seasons, demo+medic combo is much more valuable as opposed to heavy+med combo from past. Team that lets single most valuable damage class screw around with trying to get one pick every 3-5 lives will lose. Importance of demo may not be the one from 6v6 (which is also not possible, less people means that every pick is valued much more), but demo is strongly valued in HL as well. Bombing medic with soldier is generally much more effective compared to demoman (except kaidus probably). Shooting 2 very well placed rockets mid-air can make medic pop/drop, I don't know a medic that would pop for caber flying one eyed monster.
That aside, I would like to see it banned just because it is a "nothing to lose weapon". getting that close to demo should mean his death, taking attacker with him is unnecessary bonus.

Maybe, but I think we can hope for it to be something like Tennis doubles. Same game, different way to play it.

yeah like beach volleyball vs volleyball

6s is beach volleyball, fast paced and hot asses

highlander is like volleyball, slower and more players

Because is bad

If you think indoor volleyball is slower than beach, you have never played or watched it at college or above level. Beach volleyball is a lot slower, not only because you can't jump off sand as high and with less force, but also because it's only played with two people per team. You end up passing high since you need to setup for the next hit yourself. While indoor, you have 3 front line attackers and two back attackers that are ready to pass to and smash (sometimes two setters). Not to mention that the balls are different and you can hit indoor balls ALOT harder. There is many times off a smash where you can't even react.

TLDR- Indoor is faster than beach, switch your analogy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl7230zSzUY

did you read my spoiler

i have never watched more than 30 seconds of any actual indoor volleyball game

It's stupid to "bash" highlander, or sixes for that matter. Both are TF2, which we can all agree is a great game. Publicity in either format is favorable to the other, and basically essential in maintaining a medium sized community in our relatively small esport.

Wow, a lot of the items you guys are mentioning are not used in platinum play. I can't speak for most of the teams below platinum, but I have personally never seen players use something like the FoN in a match. While its true that we will get the occasional sydney sleepr, unlock abuse has never been a huge issue in upper platinum.

I guess because I have only played HL in my time in TF2 I think it is not very chaotic, but I can understand why a 6s player would think so.

Ehh... I sort of like highlander more than 6s, but I think the main difference between the two is that strats that work in 6s don't work in Highlander and vice versa. For example, taking down one person in highlander isn't a good signal to be aggressive, however in 6s it is. Both are different and both are fun to play.

They're just scared. It's like when people knock gay sex without having tried it.

That's not what it is at all.

It's completely different. If you land next to a medic with a caber you have to hit him once to kill him. You'd have to hit him 3 times with a market gardender.