instead of a one liner that reeks of condescension i would like to know why pro granary is worse ty mr waldo
the unpugable maps
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TF2 General Discussion
instead of a one liner that reeks of condescension i would like to know why pro granary is worse ty mr waldo
I feel like I should say that mappers feel inclined to avoid working on maps for competitive because it's an incredibly difficult audience to design for. Mapping is a pretty major time commitment, and aiming it at competitive means that you have to put in that much more effort and put up with a lot more bullshit for, most of the time, fewer results. Making a map for pub play allows you a lot more creative options and a lot more resources for testing.
I feel like I should say that mappers feel inclined to avoid working on maps for competitive because it's an incredibly difficult audience to design for. Mapping is a pretty major time commitment, and aiming it at competitive means that you have to put in that much more effort and put up with a lot more bullshit for, most of the time, fewer results. Making a map for pub play allows you a lot more creative options and a lot more resources for testing.
clckwrkinstead of a one liner that reeks of condescension i would like to know why pro granary is worse ty mr waldo
It isn't worse, he's just upset that all the extra stuff you could do as soldier (the only class that could have fun on the map) is gone despite granary pro being an improvement in literally every conceivable way.
[quote=clckwrk]instead of a one liner that reeks of condescension i would like to know why pro granary is worse ty mr waldo[/quote]
It isn't worse, he's just upset that all the extra stuff you could do as soldier (the only class that could have fun on the map) is gone despite granary pro being an improvement in literally every conceivable way.
It isn't worse, he's just upset that all the extra stuff you could do as soldier (the only class that could have fun on the map) is gone despite granary pro being an improvement in literally every conceivable way.
Idk about anyone else but soldier is more fun on pro to me because of the extra ammo
Idk about anyone else but soldier is more fun on pro to me because of the extra ammo
yukon called. it wants its spot in the rotation back
yukon called. it wants its spot in the rotation back
- movement of last point severely reduces importance of pipe, makes passive last holds significantly harder
- last point itself is completely out of place, slight elevation over a displacement combined with nearby supports/boxes/tires make it way too strong of a position in post-fight 1v1/1v2 situations
- removing props/non smooth in dropdown negates its purpose; it shouldn't be safe/winnable for someone going up dropdown
- widening the sides of mid discourages taking high ground as soldier, makes 1/2 height crates even more of a death trap
- pushing back 2nd forward makes the typical Z repush strategy less valid, one of the more interesting parts of the map. arguing that granary is the only rotation map with a forward that far forward doesn't take into account that it forces any fast repush after losing 4 to go through Z
- removing various props/quirks in map geometry as "clutter" is removing those places for players to "bring some flair to their movement"
- removing hiding spots is simply a bad principle; any good player knows of them and they give more options to roamers in an increasingly scout-dominated game. additionally, no-colliding every single wall prop simply makes the map bland; I've never heard someone complain about these being annoying/unfair.
- changes to last spawn from the perspective of a defending team are negated by moving the point forward; it takes a comparable amount of time to get to point. arguing that the rocket room encouraged hiding for backcaps is irrelevant; process has a similar room and granary's is easier to check since it's on the way from spawn.
most of the interesting aspects of granary are in the contrast between its simple/open main path between points and cramped/complicated flanks. clearing out flanks and encouraging monolithic pushes via large, open doors (i.e. connector from mid) makes the game simpler and blander.
[list]
[*] movement of last point severely reduces importance of pipe, makes passive last holds significantly harder
[*] last point itself is completely out of place, slight elevation over a displacement combined with nearby supports/boxes/tires make it way too strong of a position in post-fight 1v1/1v2 situations
[*] removing props/non smooth in dropdown negates its purpose; it shouldn't be safe/winnable for someone going up dropdown
[*] widening the sides of mid discourages taking high ground as soldier, makes 1/2 height crates even more of a death trap
[*] pushing back 2nd forward makes the typical Z repush strategy less valid, one of the more interesting parts of the map. arguing that granary is the only rotation map with a forward that far forward doesn't take into account that it forces any fast repush after losing 4 to go through Z
[*] removing various props/quirks in map geometry as "clutter" is removing those places for players to "bring some flair to their movement"
[*] removing hiding spots is simply a bad principle; any good player knows of them and they give more options to roamers in an increasingly scout-dominated game. additionally, no-colliding every single wall prop simply makes the map bland; I've never heard someone complain about [url=http://i.imgur.com/ItmO8VM.png]these[/url] being annoying/unfair.
[*] changes to last spawn from the perspective of a defending team are negated by moving the point forward; it takes a comparable amount of time to get to point. arguing that the rocket room encouraged hiding for backcaps is irrelevant; process has a similar room and granary's is easier to check since it's on the way from spawn.
[/list]
most of the interesting aspects of granary are in the contrast between its simple/open main path between points and cramped/complicated flanks. clearing out flanks and encouraging monolithic pushes via large, open doors (i.e. connector from mid) makes the game simpler and blander.
[*] movement of last point severely reduces importance of pipe, makes passive last holds significantly harder
[*] last point itself is completely out of place, slight elevation over a displacement combined with nearby supports/boxes/tires make it way too strong of a position in post-fight 1v1/1v2 situations
[*] removing props/non smooth in dropdown negates its purpose; it shouldn't be safe/winnable for someone going up dropdown
[*] widening the sides of mid discourages taking high ground as soldier, makes 1/2 height crates even more of a death trap
[*] pushing back 2nd forward makes the typical Z repush strategy less valid, one of the more interesting parts of the map. arguing that granary is the only rotation map with a forward that far forward doesn't take into account that it forces any fast repush after losing 4 to go through Z
[*] removing various props/quirks in map geometry as "clutter" is removing those places for players to "bring some flair to their movement"
[*] removing hiding spots is simply a bad principle; any good player knows of them and they give more options to roamers in an increasingly scout-dominated game. additionally, no-colliding every single wall prop simply makes the map bland; I've never heard someone complain about [url=http://i.imgur.com/ItmO8VM.png]these[/url] being annoying/unfair.
[*] changes to last spawn from the perspective of a defending team are negated by moving the point forward; it takes a comparable amount of time to get to point. arguing that the rocket room encouraged hiding for backcaps is irrelevant; process has a similar room and granary's is easier to check since it's on the way from spawn.
[/list]
most of the interesting aspects of granary are in the contrast between its simple/open main path between points and cramped/complicated flanks. clearing out flanks and encouraging monolithic pushes via large, open doors (i.e. connector from mid) makes the game simpler and blander.
there are only two problems that pro gran that valve gran does not have
sniping from spawn on last is ridiculously powerful
and the last point is too far forward which makes holding against full uber pushes much harder but does not really help pushing in with a pick full uber v full uber
there are only two problems that pro gran that valve gran does not have
sniping from spawn on last is ridiculously powerful
and the last point is too far forward which makes holding against full uber pushes much harder but does not really help pushing in with a pick full uber v full uber
sniping from spawn on last is ridiculously powerful
and the last point is too far forward which makes holding against full uber pushes much harder but does not really help pushing in with a pick full uber v full uber
Would just like to chime in, when I was more actively working on my map (too much work + season atm) I've got to say, everyone who played the map was absolutely wonderful to me and the feedback I got was entirely reasonable things that I could do. I was really made to think that I was going to get a load of hate which I prepared myself for, and it never came tbh.
Would just like to chime in, when I was more actively working on my map (too much work + season atm) I've got to say, everyone who played the map was absolutely wonderful to me and the feedback I got was entirely reasonable things that I could do. I was really made to think that I was going to get a load of hate which I prepared myself for, and it never came tbh.
Waldo
- movement of last point severely reduces importance of pipe, makes passive last holds significantly harder
- last point itself is completely out of place, slight elevation over a displacement combined with nearby supports/boxes/tires make it way too strong of a position in post-fight 1v1/1v2 situations
- removing props/non smooth in dropdown negates its purpose; it shouldn't be safe/winnable for someone going up dropdown
- widening the sides of mid discourages taking high ground as soldier, makes 1/2 height crates even more of a death trap
- pushing back 2nd forward makes the typical Z repush strategy less valid, one of the more interesting parts of the map. arguing that granary is the only rotation map with a forward that far forward doesn't take into account that it forces any fast repush after losing 4 to go through Z
- removing various props/quirks in map geometry as "clutter" is removing those places for players to "bring some flair to their movement"
- removing hiding spots is simply a bad principle; any good player knows of them and they give more options to roamers in an increasingly scout-dominated game. additionally, no-colliding every single wall prop simply makes the map bland; I've never heard someone complain about these being annoying/unfair.
- changes to last spawn from the perspective of a defending team are negated by moving the point forward; it takes a comparable amount of time to get to point. arguing that the rocket room encouraged hiding for backcaps is irrelevant; process has a similar room and granary's is easier to check since it's on the way from spawn.
most of the interesting aspects of granary are in the contrast between its simple/open main path between points and cramped/complicated flanks. clearing out flanks and encouraging monolithic pushes via large, open doors (i.e. connector from mid) makes the game simpler and blander.
- from my experiences the pipe is actually extremely important, potentially moreso than on the original granary. on regular granary, the top pipe is only relevant toward the very back, near the point, and the rightmost pipe has similar uses. in the newest granary, both pipes become more usable from any given point on the pipe (cp is in the middle). when i play cp_granary_pro, the most important thing to take when pushing last is pipe, or at the very least, deny the other team from staying on top of them.
- i agree that the movement around the point is definitely awkward and i'd like it to be a lot smoother of a transition from ground to point. but that's really the only complaint i'd have. the point is in a better place than having it at the very back, with props blocking defense from the left spawn door and an awkward stairwell right behind it, with literally no way to maneuver if you're the defending team. defending teams should have a slight advantage, especially when you consider that the attacking team has the momentum and is driving the progression of the game. if you're fighting post-fight, and the attacking team hasn't executed an efficient way to actually cap the point, they shouldn't be able to just run around dm'ing or keep hitting w to force the enemy team into a corner and cap the point (like they can on regular granary)
- it's never safe/winnable for anyone in dropdown unless you play it entirely incorrectly
- i don't understand where you're getting this idea at all. the pivotal aspect of granary mid will always be crate control. they grant whoever is on the top box vision so that they can call jumpers for their medic, and allow for the best angle of attack. widening alleys only makes a soldier have to aim slightly more (not a bad thing) by giving medics an option to dodge and surf away.
- you keep using the word "interesting" as if it's synonymous with "good." on the original granary, repushing through Z haphazardly is a valid strategy, because the spawns are too close. it's "interesting," because it's exciting to watch a match being played with players RJing across yard and stampeding through Z to defend a point they don't deserve after a mockery of a last push. unfortunately, it doesn't encourage cautious or skilled play (for the attacking and defending teams respectively)
- those were actually just cluttering the map. while I appreciate the attempt to bring my words notoriety, boring movement would exist regardless of the props that were removed. should the map have better movement in general? absolutely, as I've stressed enough times already.
- i'd agree with this, but it's not really map-breaking
- the rocket room was pretty stupid and i'm very glad they took it out. it served a purpose maybe once a week. without the point being moved forward it'd be ridiculous, the spawn would be 5 inches away from the capture point. the point is in a pretty great place considering the removal of the rocket room i'd say.
you like this word too much. i would not call this good at all. cramped flanks are not good. "complicated" flanks are good, but the original granary's flanks are not complicated. they are not flanks, and they are bad. to address your monolithic point (excellent diction), the connector (if you mean the ramp room by mid) is still an awful part of this map, and encourages hitting your head against a brick wall as a viable way of pushing (IM RUNNING INTO LEFT I HOPE I DONT GET STICKY DETONATED) or even luck based, donk spamming as a viable way to get a frag. having chokes that aren't small and cluttered is almost a must in this game. cluttered chokes make demo an even stronger class than it already is, which is why you see a lot of the chokes in the maps that are enjoyed by the community being something you can easily dry push through. the flavor of tf2 shouldn't be watching classes get instagibbed in cramped flanks by a soldier look downward. simpler chokes that stress the importance of positioning, dm, and uber advantages should be encouraged over cramped flanks that stress the importance of a singular sticky trap and hitting your head into a brickwall with no form of escape once you've passed the threshold.
[quote=Waldo][list]
[*] movement of last point severely reduces importance of pipe, makes passive last holds significantly harder
[*] last point itself is completely out of place, slight elevation over a displacement combined with nearby supports/boxes/tires make it way too strong of a position in post-fight 1v1/1v2 situations
[*] removing props/non smooth in dropdown negates its purpose; it shouldn't be safe/winnable for someone going up dropdown
[*] widening the sides of mid discourages taking high ground as soldier, makes 1/2 height crates even more of a death trap
[*] pushing back 2nd forward makes the typical Z repush strategy less valid, one of the more interesting parts of the map. arguing that granary is the only rotation map with a forward that far forward doesn't take into account that it forces any fast repush after losing 4 to go through Z
[*] removing various props/quirks in map geometry as "clutter" is removing those places for players to "bring some flair to their movement"
[*] removing hiding spots is simply a bad principle; any good player knows of them and they give more options to roamers in an increasingly scout-dominated game. additionally, no-colliding every single wall prop simply makes the map bland; I've never heard someone complain about [url=http://i.imgur.com/ItmO8VM.png]these[/url] being annoying/unfair.
[*] changes to last spawn from the perspective of a defending team are negated by moving the point forward; it takes a comparable amount of time to get to point. arguing that the rocket room encouraged hiding for backcaps is irrelevant; process has a similar room and granary's is easier to check since it's on the way from spawn.
[/list]
most of the interesting aspects of granary are in the contrast between its simple/open main path between points and cramped/complicated flanks. clearing out flanks and encouraging monolithic pushes via large, open doors (i.e. connector from mid) makes the game simpler and blander.[/quote]
- from my experiences the pipe is actually extremely important, potentially moreso than on the original granary. on regular granary, the top pipe is only relevant toward the very back, near the point, and the rightmost pipe has similar uses. in the newest granary, both pipes become more usable from any given point on the pipe (cp is in the middle). when i play cp_granary_pro, the most important thing to take when pushing last is pipe, or at the very least, deny the other team from staying on top of them.
- i agree that the movement around the point is definitely awkward and i'd like it to be a lot smoother of a transition from ground to point. but that's really the only complaint i'd have. the point is in a better place than having it at the very back, with props blocking defense from the left spawn door and an awkward stairwell right behind it, with literally no way to maneuver if you're the defending team. defending teams should have a slight advantage, especially when you consider that the attacking team has the momentum and is driving the progression of the game. if you're fighting post-fight, and the attacking team hasn't executed an efficient way to actually cap the point, they shouldn't be able to just run around dm'ing or keep hitting w to force the enemy team into a corner and cap the point (like they can on regular granary)
- it's never safe/winnable for anyone in dropdown unless you play it entirely incorrectly
- i don't understand where you're getting this idea at all. the pivotal aspect of granary mid will always be crate control. they grant whoever is on the top box vision so that they can call jumpers for their medic, and allow for the best angle of attack. widening alleys only makes a soldier have to aim slightly more (not a bad thing) by giving medics an option to dodge and surf away.
- you keep using the word "interesting" as if it's synonymous with "good." on the original granary, repushing through Z haphazardly is a valid strategy, because the spawns are too close. it's "interesting," because it's exciting to watch a match being played with players RJing across yard and stampeding through Z to defend a point they don't deserve after a mockery of a last push. unfortunately, it doesn't encourage cautious or skilled play (for the attacking and defending teams respectively)
- those were actually just cluttering the map. while I appreciate the attempt to bring my words notoriety, boring movement would exist regardless of the props that were removed. should the map have better movement in general? absolutely, as I've stressed enough times already.
- i'd agree with this, but it's not really map-breaking
- the rocket room was pretty stupid and i'm very glad they took it out. it served a purpose maybe once a week. without the point being moved forward it'd be ridiculous, the spawn would be 5 inches away from the capture point. the point is in a pretty great place considering the removal of the rocket room i'd say.
you like this word too much. i would not call this good at all. cramped flanks are not good. "complicated" flanks are good, but the original granary's flanks are not complicated. they are not flanks, and they are bad. to address your monolithic point (excellent diction), the connector (if you mean the ramp room by mid) is still an awful part of this map, and encourages hitting your head against a brick wall as a viable way of pushing (IM RUNNING INTO LEFT I HOPE I DONT GET STICKY DETONATED) or even luck based, donk spamming as a viable way to get a frag. having chokes that aren't small and cluttered is almost a must in this game. cluttered chokes make demo an even stronger class than it already is, which is why you see a lot of the chokes in the maps that are enjoyed by the community being something you can easily dry push through. the flavor of tf2 shouldn't be watching classes get instagibbed in cramped flanks by a soldier look downward. simpler chokes that stress the importance of positioning, dm, and uber advantages should be encouraged over cramped flanks that stress the importance of a singular sticky trap and hitting your head into a brickwall with no form of escape once you've passed the threshold.
[*] movement of last point severely reduces importance of pipe, makes passive last holds significantly harder
[*] last point itself is completely out of place, slight elevation over a displacement combined with nearby supports/boxes/tires make it way too strong of a position in post-fight 1v1/1v2 situations
[*] removing props/non smooth in dropdown negates its purpose; it shouldn't be safe/winnable for someone going up dropdown
[*] widening the sides of mid discourages taking high ground as soldier, makes 1/2 height crates even more of a death trap
[*] pushing back 2nd forward makes the typical Z repush strategy less valid, one of the more interesting parts of the map. arguing that granary is the only rotation map with a forward that far forward doesn't take into account that it forces any fast repush after losing 4 to go through Z
[*] removing various props/quirks in map geometry as "clutter" is removing those places for players to "bring some flair to their movement"
[*] removing hiding spots is simply a bad principle; any good player knows of them and they give more options to roamers in an increasingly scout-dominated game. additionally, no-colliding every single wall prop simply makes the map bland; I've never heard someone complain about [url=http://i.imgur.com/ItmO8VM.png]these[/url] being annoying/unfair.
[*] changes to last spawn from the perspective of a defending team are negated by moving the point forward; it takes a comparable amount of time to get to point. arguing that the rocket room encouraged hiding for backcaps is irrelevant; process has a similar room and granary's is easier to check since it's on the way from spawn.
[/list]
most of the interesting aspects of granary are in the contrast between its simple/open main path between points and cramped/complicated flanks. clearing out flanks and encouraging monolithic pushes via large, open doors (i.e. connector from mid) makes the game simpler and blander.[/quote]
- from my experiences the pipe is actually extremely important, potentially moreso than on the original granary. on regular granary, the top pipe is only relevant toward the very back, near the point, and the rightmost pipe has similar uses. in the newest granary, both pipes become more usable from any given point on the pipe (cp is in the middle). when i play cp_granary_pro, the most important thing to take when pushing last is pipe, or at the very least, deny the other team from staying on top of them.
- i agree that the movement around the point is definitely awkward and i'd like it to be a lot smoother of a transition from ground to point. but that's really the only complaint i'd have. the point is in a better place than having it at the very back, with props blocking defense from the left spawn door and an awkward stairwell right behind it, with literally no way to maneuver if you're the defending team. defending teams should have a slight advantage, especially when you consider that the attacking team has the momentum and is driving the progression of the game. if you're fighting post-fight, and the attacking team hasn't executed an efficient way to actually cap the point, they shouldn't be able to just run around dm'ing or keep hitting w to force the enemy team into a corner and cap the point (like they can on regular granary)
- it's never safe/winnable for anyone in dropdown unless you play it entirely incorrectly
- i don't understand where you're getting this idea at all. the pivotal aspect of granary mid will always be crate control. they grant whoever is on the top box vision so that they can call jumpers for their medic, and allow for the best angle of attack. widening alleys only makes a soldier have to aim slightly more (not a bad thing) by giving medics an option to dodge and surf away.
- you keep using the word "interesting" as if it's synonymous with "good." on the original granary, repushing through Z haphazardly is a valid strategy, because the spawns are too close. it's "interesting," because it's exciting to watch a match being played with players RJing across yard and stampeding through Z to defend a point they don't deserve after a mockery of a last push. unfortunately, it doesn't encourage cautious or skilled play (for the attacking and defending teams respectively)
- those were actually just cluttering the map. while I appreciate the attempt to bring my words notoriety, boring movement would exist regardless of the props that were removed. should the map have better movement in general? absolutely, as I've stressed enough times already.
- i'd agree with this, but it's not really map-breaking
- the rocket room was pretty stupid and i'm very glad they took it out. it served a purpose maybe once a week. without the point being moved forward it'd be ridiculous, the spawn would be 5 inches away from the capture point. the point is in a pretty great place considering the removal of the rocket room i'd say.
you like this word too much. i would not call this good at all. cramped flanks are not good. "complicated" flanks are good, but the original granary's flanks are not complicated. they are not flanks, and they are bad. to address your monolithic point (excellent diction), the connector (if you mean the ramp room by mid) is still an awful part of this map, and encourages hitting your head against a brick wall as a viable way of pushing (IM RUNNING INTO LEFT I HOPE I DONT GET STICKY DETONATED) or even luck based, donk spamming as a viable way to get a frag. having chokes that aren't small and cluttered is almost a must in this game. cluttered chokes make demo an even stronger class than it already is, which is why you see a lot of the chokes in the maps that are enjoyed by the community being something you can easily dry push through. the flavor of tf2 shouldn't be watching classes get instagibbed in cramped flanks by a soldier look downward. simpler chokes that stress the importance of positioning, dm, and uber advantages should be encouraged over cramped flanks that stress the importance of a singular sticky trap and hitting your head into a brickwall with no form of escape once you've passed the threshold.
Waldo1) movement of last point severely reduces importance of pipe, makes passive last holds significantly harder
2) last point itself is completely out of place, slight elevation over a displacement combined with nearby supports/boxes/tires make it way too strong of a position in post-fight 1v1/1v2 situations
3) removing props/non smooth in dropdown negates its purpose; it shouldn't be safe/winnable for someone going up dropdown
4) widening the sides of mid discourages taking high ground as soldier, makes 1/2 height crates even more of a death trap
5) pushing back 2nd forward makes the typical Z repush strategy less valid, one of the more interesting parts of the map. arguing that granary is the only rotation map with a forward that far forward doesn't take into account that it forces any fast repush after losing 4 to go through Z
6) removing various props/quirks in map geometry as "clutter" is removing those places for players to "bring some flair to their movement"
7) removing hiding spots is simply a bad principle; any good player knows of them and they give more options to roamers in an increasingly scout-dominated game. additionally, no-colliding every single wall prop simply makes the map bland; I've never heard someone complain about these being annoying/unfair.
8) changes to last spawn from the perspective of a defending team are negated by moving the point forward; it takes a comparable amount of time to get to point. arguing that the rocket room encouraged hiding for backcaps is irrelevant; process has a similar room and granary's is easier to check since it's on the way from spawn.
most of the interesting aspects of granary are in the contrast between its simple/open main path between points and cramped/complicated flanks. clearing out flanks and encouraging monolithic pushes via large, open doors (i.e. connector from mid) makes the game simpler and blander.
I was about to type out why nearly all of your points are either irrelevant or wrong, but it looks like clockwork did that.
also,
5) yes and that’s a good thing; moving the 2nd forward back makes it easier to repush out of last which is a greater positive change than any negative gameplay it can possibly force.
8) that’s just wrong. with the change, it takes about the same amount of time to actually fight people on/near point for a scout, it’s slightly faster for soldier, and it’s much faster for demo. If you were only talking about scout, that argument is still irrelevant. If a change is made to remedy an issue of an initial change, that’s not a bad thing.
[quote=Waldo]
1) movement of last point severely reduces importance of pipe, makes passive last holds significantly harder
2) last point itself is completely out of place, slight elevation over a displacement combined with nearby supports/boxes/tires make it way too strong of a position in post-fight 1v1/1v2 situations
3) removing props/non smooth in dropdown negates its purpose; it shouldn't be safe/winnable for someone going up dropdown
4) widening the sides of mid discourages taking high ground as soldier, makes 1/2 height crates even more of a death trap
5) pushing back 2nd forward makes the typical Z repush strategy less valid, one of the more interesting parts of the map. arguing that granary is the only rotation map with a forward that far forward doesn't take into account that it forces any fast repush after losing 4 to go through Z
6) removing various props/quirks in map geometry as "clutter" is removing those places for players to "bring some flair to their movement"
7) removing hiding spots is simply a bad principle; any good player knows of them and they give more options to roamers in an increasingly scout-dominated game. additionally, no-colliding every single wall prop simply makes the map bland; I've never heard someone complain about [url=http://i.imgur.com/ItmO8VM.png]these[/url] being annoying/unfair.
8) changes to last spawn from the perspective of a defending team are negated by moving the point forward; it takes a comparable amount of time to get to point. arguing that the rocket room encouraged hiding for backcaps is irrelevant; process has a similar room and granary's is easier to check since it's on the way from spawn.
most of the interesting aspects of granary are in the contrast between its simple/open main path between points and cramped/complicated flanks. clearing out flanks and encouraging monolithic pushes via large, open doors (i.e. connector from mid) makes the game simpler and blander.[/quote]
I was about to type out why nearly all of your points are either irrelevant or wrong, but it looks like clockwork did that.
also,
5) yes and that’s a good thing; moving the 2nd forward back makes it easier to repush out of last which is a greater positive change than any negative gameplay it can possibly force.
8) that’s just wrong. with the change, it takes about the same amount of time to actually fight people on/near point for a scout, it’s slightly faster for soldier, and it’s much faster for demo. If you were only talking about scout, that argument is still irrelevant. If a change is made to remedy an issue of an initial change, that’s not a bad thing.
1) movement of last point severely reduces importance of pipe, makes passive last holds significantly harder
2) last point itself is completely out of place, slight elevation over a displacement combined with nearby supports/boxes/tires make it way too strong of a position in post-fight 1v1/1v2 situations
3) removing props/non smooth in dropdown negates its purpose; it shouldn't be safe/winnable for someone going up dropdown
4) widening the sides of mid discourages taking high ground as soldier, makes 1/2 height crates even more of a death trap
5) pushing back 2nd forward makes the typical Z repush strategy less valid, one of the more interesting parts of the map. arguing that granary is the only rotation map with a forward that far forward doesn't take into account that it forces any fast repush after losing 4 to go through Z
6) removing various props/quirks in map geometry as "clutter" is removing those places for players to "bring some flair to their movement"
7) removing hiding spots is simply a bad principle; any good player knows of them and they give more options to roamers in an increasingly scout-dominated game. additionally, no-colliding every single wall prop simply makes the map bland; I've never heard someone complain about [url=http://i.imgur.com/ItmO8VM.png]these[/url] being annoying/unfair.
8) changes to last spawn from the perspective of a defending team are negated by moving the point forward; it takes a comparable amount of time to get to point. arguing that the rocket room encouraged hiding for backcaps is irrelevant; process has a similar room and granary's is easier to check since it's on the way from spawn.
most of the interesting aspects of granary are in the contrast between its simple/open main path between points and cramped/complicated flanks. clearing out flanks and encouraging monolithic pushes via large, open doors (i.e. connector from mid) makes the game simpler and blander.[/quote]
I was about to type out why nearly all of your points are either irrelevant or wrong, but it looks like clockwork did that.
also,
5) yes and that’s a good thing; moving the 2nd forward back makes it easier to repush out of last which is a greater positive change than any negative gameplay it can possibly force.
8) that’s just wrong. with the change, it takes about the same amount of time to actually fight people on/near point for a scout, it’s slightly faster for soldier, and it’s much faster for demo. If you were only talking about scout, that argument is still irrelevant. If a change is made to remedy an issue of an initial change, that’s not a bad thing.
kounterpartsstuff.
First off youre missing my point. It would be much easier to make warmfront a koth map OR a koth map in general than to make a 5 cp map.
Second, it wouldnt need nearly as many changes as you think.
[quote=kounterparts]stuff.[/quote]
First off youre missing my point. It would be much easier to make warmfront a koth map OR a koth map in general than to make a 5 cp map.
Second, it wouldnt need nearly as many changes as you think.
First off youre missing my point. It would be much easier to make warmfront a koth map OR a koth map in general than to make a 5 cp map.
Second, it wouldnt need nearly as many changes as you think.
If people don't like 5cp maps like metalworks or gran, why not just REPLACE WITH GPIT??? Problem solved flawlessly. Low div teams will love to learn new maps.
If people don't like 5cp maps like metalworks or gran, why not just REPLACE WITH GPIT??? Problem solved flawlessly. Low div teams will love to learn new maps.
now i love gpit but its no match for metalworks and granary
we want COALPLANT PEOPLE COALPLANT
now i love gpit but its no match for metalworks and granary
we want COALPLANT PEOPLE COALPLANT
we want COALPLANT PEOPLE COALPLANT
itszedWhy not Edifice instead of Gpit?
edifice is worse
[quote=itszed]Why not Edifice instead of Gpit?[/quote]
edifice is worse
edifice is worse
itszedWhy not Edifice instead of Gpit?
edifice isn't a completed map
[quote=itszed]Why not Edifice instead of Gpit?[/quote]
edifice isn't a completed map
edifice isn't a completed map
deetritszedWhy not Edifice instead of Gpit?
edifice isn't a completed map
Oh whoops, I didn't mean for season play.
My point was that it's an A/D map with a lot of potential and one of the best comp mappers behind it.
[quote=deetr][quote=itszed]Why not Edifice instead of Gpit?[/quote]
edifice isn't a completed map[/quote]
Oh whoops, I didn't mean for season play.
My point was that it's an A/D map with a lot of potential and one of the best comp mappers behind it.
edifice isn't a completed map[/quote]
Oh whoops, I didn't mean for season play.
My point was that it's an A/D map with a lot of potential and one of the best comp mappers behind it.
someone should make three koth maps using each point on gpit as the center
someone should make three koth maps using each point on gpit as the center
chambssomeone should make three koth maps using each point on gpit as the center
point A would prolly suck as much as it does now and a tower for point on koth would be pretty bad
an assymetric 5cp version of gpit would be interesting tho
[quote=chambs]someone should make three koth maps using each point on gpit as the center[/quote]
point A would prolly suck as much as it does now and a tower for point on koth would be pretty bad
an assymetric 5cp version of gpit would be interesting tho
point A would prolly suck as much as it does now and a tower for point on koth would be pretty bad
an assymetric 5cp version of gpit would be interesting tho
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