has it been compiled with HDR support yet so that it loads correctly in SFM?

I'll make sure to mention it when I email Valve. They did HDR support for Process, and they may have forgotten with the new batch.

I just wanted to say that thank you for not using alpine theme for this map. I've always loved the plr_pipeline theme and I'm glad it's been put to a competitive map.

I can't confirm or deny whether or not it works, I haven't fired it up in SFM since the update (and can't for a few days). I just know that Metalworks sure did NOT have support for it when it wasn't official and a lot of leagues used it. It's entirely possible Valve's compiled and official version does support it.

This. My only gripe with Metalworks this whole time was the HDR issues - the map design, both gameplay-wise and aesthetically, has always been pleasant.

I had someone message me on steam about HDR issues for SFM with metalworks after the update, so I'm assuming it is borked.

I feel like this is directed at me since you seemed to ignore basically every single suggestion I made without even replying to a single one of them. I'm not sure if you're in the right to call something rude if you're not even willing to spend the time to respond to the feedback that I and many others spent a considerable amount of time working on. If you're not willing to make a change because you felt the way I worded my criticism was not to your liking I am not sure why you even bothered to make a thread looking for criticism in the first place.

I typically spend a few hours on each and every one of the map feedback posts I do and when I edit stuff I typically want it to be as short and to the point as it possibly can be. I don't really feel like I need to provide a lot of reasons for well over 90% of the stuff that I ask to be fixed/changed because for the most part most of the things I post are small clipping fixes that I don't really think anybody could argue against. When I do suggest a larger change I typically do try to talk to a few people about it to get their opinion as well as writing a bit more. These are normally at the bottom of the post since I find it strange to just have a huge block of text in between a few pictures.

For example:

http://puu.sh/j76Hb/cf9650bf05.jpg

These railings are still inconsistent with the rest of the map (Maybe you have changed this in the unreleased test version but since I posted the feedback nearly a year ago I am not sure why you would not fix it for the official release). For that reason alone it seems like a waste of time for me to try and convince you to fix it when it's something that you seem to have made a decision on considering that in one of my previous posts I mentioned the exact same issue and you later removed the railing entirely. The only difference seemed to be that I worded my feedback slightly different in the latter post.

http://puu.sh/j77P6/7bf0451a72.jpg

This area still appears to be not clipped off, I see no reason why you would leave it as is. I suppose in the future I could spend even more of my time writing a short paragraph on why I think each change should be made but unless it's directly influencing game play it seems like an enormous waste of my time to do that. Perhaps in the past I was willing to spend a bit more time but even just rounding up the screen shots is fairly time consuming as is.

As for new feedback, there are a few things that I noticed with regards to prop solidity on the map.

http://puu.sh/q371U/7aa036ce79.jpg

As you can see none of these lights are solid in the area on last, however a good portion of all of the others on the map are.

http://puu.sh/q376j/fa8b75dbb5.jpg

Having lights or other props on the ceiling that players can get caught on when they are either rocket jumping or are being pushed by explosives or airblast is incredibly frustrating.

http://puu.sh/q37g6/62370c2212.jpg

This area also has the same issue to an even larger degree since no only are the lights and pipe solid, the rest of the brushwork is not clipped off so if you jump or get knocked in down here you're pretty much guaranteed to get caught on stuff.

As for other feedback I would suggest looking over the stuff that I posted before since I believe most it is still quite relevant and would overall help the map to be more enjoyable.

Thanks for devoting some time to refining the map. Even if Valve doesn't let you update cp_metalworks, it would be nice to have an _rc8.

You might consider removing or blocking all the overhangs at Mid and in Valley. They often catch catch Soldiers that want to jump off the walls for bombs.

http://i.imgur.com/o24tNnP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ZWAgwpn.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/sPfSq4p.jpg

There's a solid lamp on both sides of Mid that protrudes past the clipbrush.

http://i.imgur.com/z8qQYkp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oj24kq2.jpg

I think the Last Point could have some props or other visual indicators that players can walk up either side of the ramp, especially since newer players will be exposed to Metalworks via MM.

http://i.imgur.com/MFG9rvh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8nZoCrf.jpg

Now, a couple personal gripes that I would like you to consider: the railings at Spawn are solid, which makes them annoying to shoot through.

http://i.imgur.com/Or7gfY3.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/feiVlN3.jpg

And finally, the pallets in Alley are not smooth, which makes it a challenge to slide up them. I'll try to post a video soon.

http://i.imgur.com/lO9injj.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/HQohnqg.jpg

Edit: made the video.

https://youtu.be/67VbbDzFzCU

Awesome! Thanks Bilbert. Those issues are all easily resolved. The tiny bit of lamp protruding through the player clip is hilarious.

The handrails are an issue I've dealt with around the map already (as well as on cp_process), but just not at spawn. Pretty easy fix.

The pallet ramp is easy as well, just gotta drag the pallets back a bit to get rid of that excess collision.

The last ramps are very reminiscent of process with the angled pipes at last, but yes, more props should make it clear where you can and cannot walk.

I feel like I've seen someone (chojie?) who has a fix for overhanging rooftop pieces, something like turning the edges into a func_brush and then turning the collision off. So, I'll probably look into that.

Heyyo! Just two quick things about the map that have been bothering me slightly.

http://i.imgur.com/pYXwYVd.jpg

Is this hiding spot intended? Imo it's fun to abuse/use in games but it is probably very frustrating for the other team. I would consider wether to keep it or not

http://i.imgur.com/O1hsdMW.jpg

This corner feels very awkward to stand in. It's only ever used as a connector between the stairs and the highground. Perhaps there could be another reason to be here? Maybe you could add a small ammo kit or even a prop to make it feel less empty. The bridge is also a reasonable place to hold and not needing to drop down to get ammo would also be neat.

I'm sure some will agree and some will disagree but nevertheless, these are my opinions.

wildcard question but have you ever considered putting glass or some sort of visibility on the shutters? I've never seen the point of the shutter into last since peaking or pushing it is basically always worse than just going through tunnel, but adding some visibility might change that.

Sorry if that's off topic

Hi. The hiding spot is intended. Throughout the map I've pretty much removed almost every tricky prop based hiding spot (lamps, door overhangs, etc), but that on in particular someone asked me to keep. Its a very tight spot to be in and if anyone spams even a single rocket into the room before they get the health pack you're pretty much guaranteed to get a hit blip and find the person. Additionally, it doesn't provide you with scouting info, as you are stuck in a tiny room and you can't see anyone coming or going, so you are reliant on teamwork to use it to ambush a push through the alley. Obviously, you can hear footsteps and such, but that's not really concrete information to act upon. If it was being abused incredibly frequently, then I could see clipping it off, but it doesn't seem to come up that much (somewhat like the lip above the dropdown).

That corner is mostly intended to be a transition spot for flankers who are coming up from down below to reinforce. As a defender, you pretty much don't stand there as its very hard to back up from that spot, but for attackers its a notable way of applying additional pressure once you've managed to break through the chokes. I could see adding some props there, but I'm not sure a small ammo is totally necessary (there is a medium below near the pipes, and another in the room behind the point).

Its totally on topic. Funny enough, the very first version of metalworks (called cp_resonance) had a door into last with a glass window to see into the combat space.

There are two reasons not to go that route. First, that door has an area_portal inside it, which turns off when the door is closed and turns on when the door opens. Area portals block visibility, which doors don't do on their own, and ensures that things on the other side of the door don't render when you can't actually see them. If I put a window in the door, the area portal has to be always on or it glitches out the window (you won't be able to see anything on the other side), which means you have to render more areas of the map from last than you normally would, which can affect frame rates for people with worse computers.

Second, from a game design perspective, there is a lot to be said for not giving players complete information about a space they are going to be pushing into. In general, TF2 is a game which relies on players communicating the state of the game to one another (how much uber they have, how much health, what classes the enemy team has, where the sentry is, etc). We don't have a CS style top down map to show whats up, we have to talk to one another to figure out what we are pushing into. If you put glass in the door, I feel like you end up knowing a great deal about the nature of the space you are pushing into, without having to commit yourself, which I don't think is as exciting. There are flank doors on both the right and left which scouts/snipers/roamers can peak through and get a lay of the land, but in so doing they open themselves up to reprisal, which I think is a good thing for keeping the combat flowing into and out of the last point. Obviously, there are some maps which feature glass as a way of preemptively scouting the opponent (badlands is the most obvious), but they tend to have a very different flow.

A final point, if you put a glass window into a sliding door, you might be tempted to get close to the door to get a better look at whats on the other side. If you do that, the door opens and suddenly you eat a ton of spam, which creates this weird feedback loop of wanting to get close to the door to see, but hating the experience of the door moving when you get close. That's pretty similar to how doors work now anyway, and you get to preserve the mystery of whats on the other side until you communicate with your flankers.

I usually go for turning the whole roof into a non-solid displacements, provided you have a ceiling brush to seal things off where needed.

Yah, this seems close to what I'll probably end up doing.

This is just a few general questions to you, but how did you get into mapping, what is your favorite of the maps you made, and what advice do you have for new mappers like myself?

1) I got into mapping because the TF2 blog posted a link to the Source Wiki and I was like "okay lets make some maps". I was playing on a pub server at the time, and the server admin was keen on hosting community maps, even really terrible ones (terrible map tuesdays never 4 get). I basically trawled the TF2maps.net forum and tried to learn as much as I could from the resources there, as well as opening up decompiled versions of valve maps and seeing how they did things. From there, it was just something I never put down, and I got better and better every time I made a map, and now three of them are in TF2 and I'm steadily working towards my goal of full time level/game design.

2) I haven't thought about it in a while, but I still think I have a real soft spot for Metalworks. It was my first map that really took off, the layout is pretty much my own design (not really incredibly influenced by existing maps), and it also taught me the value of starting over if something isn't working (the original map was cp_resonance, but I did a complete reboot, and even reworked the basic shape of the map from a U to an S). Obviously, cp_process is probably the most popular of my maps, and it clearly had a pretty profound effect on what constitutes a 5cp map, so thats cool, but yah Metalworks probably.

3) Oh man, I could ramble for days. First thing to keep in mind: your first map will be bad. This isn't something that you've done wrong, it isn't the result of a mistake or a failing on your part. Its all just part and parcel to the learning process that is level design. The first thing you make is bad, both because you're just learning how to use the tools, but also because you're learning how to make GOOD levels. Its one thing to figure out how a brush/displacment/hint and so forth works, its another thing entirely to understand what good gameplay is, what a good combat space is like and so on. So take your first map as a learning process; make a messy, stapled together, poorly optimized trash heap and then move on. The next map will still be bad, but you'll have learned from making the first. And then the third will be better, but still not amazing. AND THEN... and then and then you just keep going and eventually you'll start making GOOD maps.

A level designer from Valve that I follow on twitter, he made a comment on his maps that basically is like "I'm constantly making better maps than I've ever made before", because every year he is getting better at making them. So don't get discouraged! If you stick with mapping, you'll look back at your first maps and recognize the necessity of your failings as a stepping stone to where you are today.

Second, there is a fine line between observing other maps and learning from their success, and trying to re-implement their success exactly. A good example of this is sunshine. Clearly, its a map very much informed by the success of process, but its definitely not (strictly speaking) a clone of process either. Its got its own last, its own take on middle and how it handles flank routes, its own visual design. Being able to tell when you are just retreading the same exact footsteps of another map, versus when you are taking the formula of that and spinning it off into your own thing is really important. For a new mapper, learn the distinction between copying a map exactly versus evolving the concepts the map deals with and you'll go far.

Finally, acknowledge the necessity of feedback to grow and change the map you're working on, but never forget: Its your map! You know its ins and outs. You know what you intend to do with it, and how long a change will take to make. If someone tells you to change something, don't just blindly follow their input, but consider the implications and ask yourself "does this make sense?". Design by committee is never a formula for interesting game design, and allowing yourself time to think and consider is huge for improving a map.

Thanks for the help! I currently in pre alpha on my 3rd map and it is much better than my prior two. What other maps besides Metalworks and Process have you made that someone here might recognize?

Hey Scorpio, I'm posting this on behalf of not only Benroads, but for all the people who take time off their free time and spend it on running around and finding feedback for mappers like you so gameplay and the map itself can be improved.

If you're going to ignore feedback on your map, or just not care for someones opinions just because he's saying it in a certain way that displeases you, you're killing off people that want to help mappers and promote competitive tf2 map making, I really hate to see a hard working guy like myself or anyone being ignored of feedback just because I didn't say:

He wasn't being rude, none of us are rude intentionally, as a matter of fact we admire mappers that actually give a shit about improving their maps, you can go ahead and check my history with Phi, Chojje, Fubar, Fantasmos, Hyce and even yourself, of how much time I spent helping you guys with feedback, and that's nothing compared to Benroads.

Ignoring feedback has no excuse, especially when the feedback is not even about major gameplay changes but just some simple fixes.

cp_standin (which is also official)
cp_ashville (lets pretend it never happened)
koth_coalplant (a remake of cp_ashville, back into koth_ashville sort of?)
koth_airfield (played in 4v4)
cp_rooftop (standin style map, still being worked on sometimes)
and a whole bunch of failed projects that sit on my hard drive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

I basically chose not to respond to Benroads because I feel like that is the best way to diffuse these sorts of antagonisms. I'm not interested in allowing someone to be rude to me, and then I do something for them by changing the map. Yes, the things he mentioned are changes that would improve the map, but what does it mean if I implement them? First off, they are incredibly minor changes. 99.99% of players will never notice if a pipe is solid or non solid, they will never notice if a door frame area is slightly unclipped. Thats not to say I shouldn't clip it or turn off collision (clearly its an improvement), but it certainly puts it at at the bottom of my list as far as priorities go when the vast majority of players will never notice.

And on top of that, there is an incentive not to do it. If I do clip those areas, Benroads will use that as an excuse to win an argument later on down the road with another mapper ("CLEARLY I know better than you what to do, I told Scorpio every problem his map had and he HAD to make changes to satisfy me! So you MUST do what I tell you!") It just invites the same sort of bullshit, toxic perspectives that drive mappers nuts. We absolutely want feedback, but we don't want to be treated like shit in order to get it.

He can say that he didn't INTEND to be rude, but very few people do! They are just rude, like a bull in a china shop, completely oblivious to the unpleasantness of their own behavior, smashing someones hard work, never considering the time and energy it took to make the thing they are trashing. He spent a couple of hours gathering screenshots and writing several very small paragraphs?! Holy shit! How much time do you think I end up spending on the maps, building them, playtesting them, watching match footage, replying to feedback like I'm doing right now? THOUSANDS OF HOURS! And he feels entitled to me making some very minor clipping changes and listening to his toxic nonsense? No thanks! I'll suck up a tiny clipping error over complying with toxicity.

Its a product of our time on the internet, and those who have been raised pretty much from birth with it. You assume you can just say whatever you like and its fine, no consequences, it doesn't matter how I speak or what I say. But it totally does matter! And I, for one, will not give in to toxic feedback. If its a major issue, I'll change it, but I'm not going to let someone antagonize me into a minor change just so they can improve their own street cred.

I totally appreciate anyone who wants to provide feedback and who takes the time out to do so, and for the most part the feedback on my maps has been great! Its whats allowed me to get my maps official into TF2. But I'm not going to suffer rudeness if I don't have to.

dude wtf benraods has been nothing but helpful

he's not doing this for "street cred" or whatever the fuck that means, just fix the shit u fuckin man baby

Yeah, that's what I did for the most recent public Snakewater update, but it causes some lighting issues, and generally Fubar's solution from Product with displacements solid only to bullets and projectiles but not to players has a far better feel.

Awesome. Yah the slight func_brush screwing with lighting seems not so good, but consistent displacements seems ideal.

Normally I'd just roll my eyes and move on, I'm not one to tell people how to do their business and I hate to derail a map topic but I think jacky has a point. If we're to take the example of clip suggestions, they are more often than not completely self explanatory and lend themselves very well to rapid fire feedback, so much so that any other format is frankly counter productive.

So, there's that but I'd also like to mention that keeping channels of communications open between mappers and players is something that feels very important to me. I feel as tho we have a duty to stay open and failing to do so hurts all of us and I don't stand for that.

Disagreeing with feedback is always fine ofc (and encouraged), because it's a good opportunity to discuss design goals. Taking that opportunity usually helps people better understand how they can help you and everyone wins. Ignoring feedback however makes me uneasy. More often than not people provide feedback because they appreciate your work and want to help you elevate it, failing to recognize that is an important shortcoming. The end product is what's important, self-validation holds no value. To me at least, benroads has been genuine with his intentions.

All that said I can understand wanting to keep changes as minimal as possible at the later stages of a map's life and if that's what it's going to be then so be it. But if and when feedback enters the field of diminishing returns (it surely does on occasions) it's completely fine to tell people that you just don't want to do it, I mean it's fair. But ignoring should be a last resort and ignoring on the debatably false pretense of rudeness is just not okay.

and those are my 2 cents
Fubar out

Heya Scorpio. Long time lover of Process, first time replier to any of these threads. (although fwiw I like Metalworks more and more every time I play it, it's growing on me) I feel you on the oldish age thing, I'm almost thirty and the grumpiness definitely is setting in, but I think you should consider that rudeness generally comes from the intention of the post rather than the strict wording of the post. Especially when it comes to stuff like balancing or maps as these are the two facets of game design that most impacts a players experience, so they're going to be more verbal about it.

e.g.

There's a significant difference between someone going

and

Sure it'd be great if people probably didn't say "this is terrible", but that's just wording that the area or thing stands out to them as VERY off, not them trying to be rude to you. And Benroads definitely wasn't doing the former here, jesus I'd love to receive feedback like his posts because even if you think they seem a bit "forceful" or whatever, because getting well written feedback in general is often rare, and you still have the abilit yto say no if you think the clips are important for things like rollouts etc!

Also I have to say that as someone in the game industry right now, directly admitting ANYWHERE you won't improve a map because of some wording in someones internet posts directly is not a good look and is just opening up a massive can of worms. Even if you're not employed with Valve aren't you still somewhat obligated to make sure the map is as perfect as it can be for them since you're receiving payment? Publicly admitting something like that seems bad regardless even if you aren't though.

Like, what if someone else entirely different somewhere else suggests the same fixes? You're going to have to tell them no/ignore them because of someone else? What if someone bugs Valve about the fixes, and then Valve bugs you to fix it? You're going to tell them no because of someone else? (although I imagine Valve can actually overrule you and implement changes themselves now though if they really wanted to) That gets way too complicated, way too easily, over something as pointless as "internet map maker helper cred".

I also think it ends up hurting other map makers because people will see "okay I (or this other guy) submitted really easy and so-obviously-should-be-fixed feedback even the author said it would be an improvement and it still isn't being done, so submitting feedback is kind of a waste of time then".

Regardless though, it seriously impresses me that it doesn't just hurt you to know it's not perfect, directly admit you can make it better, and then just sit there and not fix it (being simple fixes that they are in Benroads case). Every other creator I know would go insane over that. I couldn't do it myself.

Maybe you should have a private chat instead of passive-aggressively uttering frustrated psychological projection and blame shifting on a public forum in regards to someone you've probably never actually spoken to. You might find that you're trying to reach exactly the same goal, but from a slightly different perspective. Otherwise, in future you are just going to have less enthusiasm to make maps for competitive and people like Ben are going to have less enthusiasm to provide the feedback needed to make them. Everyone loses, nothing is won. I think we all understand where this frustration has come from, because there is a lot of rude and unhelpful feedback mappers have to sift through and learn to ignore, but you might not want to be projecting this onto someone who is genuinely trying to help you(and by extension all of us) .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRmuvIQYs6c
So this may not be as beneficial as some of the other changes mentioned, but on the blue side of the map there seems to be something weird going on with the wall above the exit onto 2nd. I'm normally pretty good about finding hiding spots but this one was found by accident. If you jump towards the wall in line with the center of the control point you can get stuck in several different places. and since there is no collision around that area you have free reign to shoot anywhere. I don't know enough about mapping as to why this happens, and its not something that everyone would use because its not very consistent, but i can tell its an unintended spot. It might not have been a problem if i never brought it up if no one knew about it already, but i thought id point it out just to bring some attention.