CoD4 was actually a pretty successful eSports game, at least in Europe. It was a decent sized scene in the NA but it died rather quickly compared to EU, where I think it's still sort of alive.
I'm mad at misconceptions (about TF2)
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
CoD4 was actually a pretty successful eSports game, at least in Europe. It was a decent sized scene in the NA but it died rather quickly compared to EU, where I think it's still sort of alive.
I think we're asking the wrong people what is wrong, if anything, with TF2. If we want to explore the why, we should really get people who don't watch TF2 or play competitively. They answer some questions, watch some comp games, and answer some more questions. That way we get opinions from people who don't have preconceptions about how competitive TF2 should be played.
I think we're asking the wrong people what is wrong, if anything, with TF2. If we want to explore the why, we should really get people who [b]don't[/b] watch TF2 or play competitively. They answer some questions, watch some comp games, and answer some more questions. That way we get opinions from people who don't have preconceptions about how competitive TF2 should be played.
After reading his rules, the only change would be shorter games. The only time one point is held for over 5 minutes is the occasional last point on some maps, but more often than not it's caused by poor map design.
After reading his rules, the only change would be shorter games. The only time one point is held for over 5 minutes is the occasional last point on some maps, but more often than not it's caused by poor map design.
Blurruber charge 50% faster
no stalemate
That might solve a few situations, but most bad stalemates are on lasts, where it's usually uber vs uber and teams try to look for another advantage before pushing.
[quote=Blurr]uber charge 50% faster
no stalemate[/quote]
That might solve a few situations, but most bad stalemates are on lasts, where it's usually uber vs uber and teams try to look for another advantage before pushing.
no stalemate[/quote]
That might solve a few situations, but most bad stalemates are on lasts, where it's usually uber vs uber and teams try to look for another advantage before pushing.
having been a part of other gaming communities I actually think TF2 6's is the most fun to watch. I think the difference is the meta game is pretty different from your average pub, so there can be a small disconnect between the majority of the player population and what is happening in a 6's match.
The viewer numbers are quite good for TF2 competitive matches though and as you continue to advertise it I think that will only grow.
having been a part of other gaming communities I actually think TF2 6's is the most fun to watch. I think the difference is the meta game is pretty different from your average pub, so there can be a small disconnect between the majority of the player population and what is happening in a 6's match.
The viewer numbers are quite good for TF2 competitive matches though and as you continue to advertise it I think that will only grow.
The viewer numbers are quite good for TF2 competitive matches though and as you continue to advertise it I think that will only grow.
foreignit's hard to watch 12 ppls views at once. tf not 2ez to spectate. there should be a new/different spectator overview mode.
What if there was a split screen and it had "both teams' perspectives" and it would switch around to the person that is doing the most for each team? It would take 2 cameramen and completely new and (maybe?) impossible HUD problems, but I like the idea of watching multiple people at once (doesn't insomnia do this?).
[quote=foreign]it's hard to watch 12 ppls views at once. tf not 2ez to spectate. there should be a new/different spectator overview mode.[/quote]
What if there was a split screen and it had "both teams' perspectives" and it would switch around to the person that is doing the most for each team? It would take 2 cameramen and completely new and (maybe?) impossible HUD problems, but I like the idea of watching multiple people at once (doesn't insomnia do this?).
What if there was a split screen and it had "both teams' perspectives" and it would switch around to the person that is doing the most for each team? It would take 2 cameramen and completely new and (maybe?) impossible HUD problems, but I like the idea of watching multiple people at once (doesn't insomnia do this?).
wareya#17 The reason for their popularity is because DotA and LoL are such massively popular games while the competitive play is the same as public play, so it's essentially watching people who are 100x better than you do the same stuff. Don't know how to respond to the other stuff in your post though.
People underestimate how big a part this plays in the *accessibility* of competitive tf2. The game, as a whole, was designed to be played in servers without class limits, and only a very small objective list. (ie push the cart, capture the flag, hold the point, get all 5 capture points) But beyond those objectives, basically anything went.
There is a vocabulary and mindset that needs to be discovered before you can even play 6's or Highlander, and that's what loses people.
Yes, a *vocabulary* that even in streams gets glossed over.
You can jump in to any dota 2, LoL, or starcraft game, and the vocabulary is concurrent. There is no need to have a lengthy introduction to what is going on. There is no need to re figure team dynamics or what each player is doing. It is the same whether in public servers or in show matches or leagues.
_________________
The other thing to note in commonality is that they are all *top down* games. As a spectator, you can watch from exactly the same angle and get a really decent bit of the action. If you want to be fancy, you can zoom in on it, but for the most part the way they are show is much easier to cast. You also have to note
all those games have mini maps
Yeah. As a spectator, that's something I constantly look at. It not only helps me get in to the head of whoever I am watching ("Oh man, that guy knows he's about to get cornered by 4 people in his lane. What's he gonna do") but it helps me get a larger sense of the game.
While in game, that kind of thing would give a grossly unfair advantage, a spectator plug in to show the same kind of mini map would be amazing to hint at possible back caps, a soldier hiding for a force, a spy about to backstab. Think of how much more information could be given to the viewer.
Logistically though, there are tons of maps, and the idea would be much more difficult to follow through with, but if there were such a thing, I think the implementation of it would greatly enhance the watchability and overall draw of tf2 as a spectator sport.
[quote=wareya]#17 The reason for their popularity is because DotA and LoL are such massively popular games while the competitive play is the same as public play, so it's essentially watching people who are 100x better than you do the same stuff. Don't know how to respond to the other stuff in your post though.[/quote]
People underestimate how big a part this plays in the *accessibility* of competitive tf2. The game, as a whole, was designed to be played in servers without class limits, and only a very small objective list. (ie push the cart, capture the flag, hold the point, get all 5 capture points) But beyond those objectives, basically anything went.
There is a vocabulary and mindset that needs to be discovered before you can even play 6's or Highlander, and that's what loses people.
Yes, a [i]*vocabulary*[/i] that even in streams gets glossed over.
You can jump in to any dota 2, LoL, or starcraft game, and the vocabulary is concurrent. There is no need to have a lengthy introduction to what is going on. There is no need to re figure team dynamics or what each player is doing. It is the same whether in public servers or in show matches or leagues.
_________________
The other thing to note in commonality is that they are all *top down* games. As a spectator, you can watch from exactly the same angle and get a really decent bit of the action. If you want to be fancy, you can zoom in on it, but for the most part the way they are show is much easier to cast. You also have to note
[b]all those games have mini maps[/b]
Yeah. As a spectator, that's something I constantly look at. It not only helps me get in to the head of whoever I am watching ("Oh man, that guy knows he's about to get cornered by 4 people in his lane. What's he gonna do") but it helps me get a larger sense of the game.
While in game, that kind of thing would give a grossly unfair advantage, a spectator plug in to show the same kind of mini map would be amazing to hint at possible back caps, a soldier hiding for a force, a spy about to backstab. Think of how much more information could be given to the viewer.
Logistically though, there are tons of maps, and the idea would be much more difficult to follow through with, but if there were such a thing, I think the implementation of it would greatly enhance the watchability and overall draw of tf2 as a spectator sport.
People underestimate how big a part this plays in the *accessibility* of competitive tf2. The game, as a whole, was designed to be played in servers without class limits, and only a very small objective list. (ie push the cart, capture the flag, hold the point, get all 5 capture points) But beyond those objectives, basically anything went.
There is a vocabulary and mindset that needs to be discovered before you can even play 6's or Highlander, and that's what loses people.
Yes, a [i]*vocabulary*[/i] that even in streams gets glossed over.
You can jump in to any dota 2, LoL, or starcraft game, and the vocabulary is concurrent. There is no need to have a lengthy introduction to what is going on. There is no need to re figure team dynamics or what each player is doing. It is the same whether in public servers or in show matches or leagues.
_________________
The other thing to note in commonality is that they are all *top down* games. As a spectator, you can watch from exactly the same angle and get a really decent bit of the action. If you want to be fancy, you can zoom in on it, but for the most part the way they are show is much easier to cast. You also have to note
[b]all those games have mini maps[/b]
Yeah. As a spectator, that's something I constantly look at. It not only helps me get in to the head of whoever I am watching ("Oh man, that guy knows he's about to get cornered by 4 people in his lane. What's he gonna do") but it helps me get a larger sense of the game.
While in game, that kind of thing would give a grossly unfair advantage, a spectator plug in to show the same kind of mini map would be amazing to hint at possible back caps, a soldier hiding for a force, a spy about to backstab. Think of how much more information could be given to the viewer.
Logistically though, there are tons of maps, and the idea would be much more difficult to follow through with, but if there were such a thing, I think the implementation of it would greatly enhance the watchability and overall draw of tf2 as a spectator sport.
Blurruber charge 50% faster
no stalemate
I don't actually think so since it would probably make aggression more difficult and not easier.
You have to keep in mind that a faster ubercharge rate means a smaller window of time in which you can push with an advantage or dry push before your opponent gets uber. Stalemating generally occurs when both teams have uber already or when the difference in ubercharge percentage is negligible, both of which would happen about 50% more frequently with the suggested change.
I kind of wonder how this change would affect kritz since it it would have to be rescaled as well. I'm not sure if it would be better or worse.
[quote=Blurr]uber charge 50% faster
no stalemate[/quote]
I don't actually think so since it would probably make aggression more difficult and not easier.
You have to keep in mind that a faster ubercharge rate means a smaller window of time in which you can push with an advantage or dry push before your opponent gets uber. Stalemating generally occurs when both teams have uber already or when the difference in ubercharge percentage is negligible, both of which would happen about 50% more frequently with the suggested change.
I kind of wonder how this change would affect kritz since it it would have to be rescaled as well. I'm not sure if it would be better or worse.
no stalemate[/quote]
I don't actually think so since it would probably make aggression more difficult and not easier.
You have to keep in mind that a faster ubercharge rate means a smaller window of time in which you can push with an advantage or dry push before your opponent gets uber. Stalemating generally occurs when both teams have uber already or when the difference in ubercharge percentage is negligible, both of which would happen about 50% more frequently with the suggested change.
I kind of wonder how this change would affect kritz since it it would have to be rescaled as well. I'm not sure if it would be better or worse.
I'm fairly certain the premise of TF2 is what really holds it back. If Valve hadn't made TF2 come off as such a casual, trollish, joke type game people would be more compelled to be good at the game and watch other people who are good.
Valve intentionally made this game to be taken lightly so winning leagues or tournaments and seeing the best players in the world isn't something that comes to mind when you first see or play TF2. There's so many people who pub for hundreds of hours and have no idea about competitive TF2 because there's nothing about TF2 that comes off as being competitive. If you joined a regular CS or Quake pub you'll still see people trying to win. In TF2, most players will just try to fool around and have fun.
There's nothing wrong with how 6s plays or what it's like to watch it (aside from spectating potentially being more efficient) it's just kind of hard for the average new comer to take TF2 a little seriously. That's my opinion anyway.
I'm fairly certain the premise of TF2 is what really holds it back. If Valve hadn't made TF2 come off as such a casual, trollish, joke type game people would be more compelled to be good at the game and watch other people who are good.
Valve intentionally made this game to be taken lightly so winning leagues or tournaments and seeing the best players in the world isn't something that comes to mind when you first see or play TF2. There's so many people who pub for hundreds of hours and have no idea about competitive TF2 because there's nothing about TF2 that comes off as being competitive. If you joined a regular CS or Quake pub you'll still see people trying to win. In TF2, most players will just try to fool around and have fun.
There's nothing wrong with how 6s plays or what it's like to watch it (aside from spectating potentially being more efficient) it's just kind of hard for the average new comer to take TF2 a little seriously. That's my opinion anyway.
Valve intentionally made this game to be taken lightly so winning leagues or tournaments and seeing the best players in the world isn't something that comes to mind when you first see or play TF2. There's so many people who pub for hundreds of hours and have no idea about competitive TF2 because there's nothing about TF2 that comes off as being competitive. If you joined a regular CS or Quake pub you'll still see people trying to win. In TF2, most players will just try to fool around and have fun.
There's nothing wrong with how 6s plays or what it's like to watch it (aside from spectating potentially being more efficient) it's just kind of hard for the average new comer to take TF2 a little seriously. That's my opinion anyway.
Yeah but tf2 wouldn't be fun if it wasn't a casual, trollish joke game. Imagine how lame it would be if it had the same olive drab military visuals of every other team fps out there (and how the original design iterations had planned).
Yeah but tf2 wouldn't be fun if it wasn't a casual, trollish joke game. Imagine how lame it would be if it had the same olive drab military visuals of every other team fps out there (and how the original design iterations had planned).
#41: He meant from a gameplay and culture perspective, not the art style.
#41: He meant from a gameplay and culture perspective, not the art style.
"TF2 isn't fast enough" just seems like a lazy excuse by and for people who are mad at engineer or pyro or heavy or whatever, or the fact that they can't play with their team well enough to "stop holding and push". Of all the pvp games I've ever seen (EDIT: exclude fighting games from this), TF2 is the only one that gets faster when the skill level is raised, at least to the insane degree it does. There's more pussyfooting, and there's more caution too, but the former usually happens on maps or rulesets that reward it (cough cough warmfront) and the second doesn't slow the game down enough to out-do what the players bring to make the game faster, at that level of play. Better rollouts, better pushes, more aggression, more cohesion, yeah.
Think 20 minutes is too much? Play KotH Bo3. 4-5 minutes per round still too much? Play Arena, surely telling people to kill eachother instead of focus on an objective is a good thing! Oh, wait, permadeath makes people pussyfoot even more. Oops.
when people say that the game is too "slow", i dont think they are referring to the length of the rounds. my best guess is that "people" (aka redditors)are saying is that the same way quake is a faster paced game than tf2, tf2 by comparison is slow. the same way tfc is faster paced than tf2, makes tf2 slow. for people who played games like tfc and quake, tf2 really does feel like playing in maple syrup (im speaking from personal experience).
IMO the people you are referring to may have a point, seeing as the VAST majority of TFC'ers (excluding ppl like reptile, dummy) did not start playing competitive tf2 after it came out, or years later, for the reason that tf2 was way too slow.
you might say as a rebuttal that tf2 IS fast, which it is, compared to many fps's on the market today, but not compared to games like quake and tfc.
[quote]"TF2 isn't fast enough" just seems like a lazy excuse by and for people who are mad at engineer or pyro or heavy or whatever, or the fact that they can't play with their team well enough to "stop holding and push". Of all the pvp games I've ever seen (EDIT: exclude fighting games from this), TF2 is the only one that gets [b]faster[/b] when the skill level is raised, at least to the insane degree it does. There's more pussyfooting, and there's more caution too, but the former usually happens on maps or rulesets that reward it (cough cough warmfront) and the second doesn't slow the game down enough to out-do what the players bring to make the game faster, at that level of play. Better rollouts, better pushes, more aggression, more cohesion, yeah.
Think 20 minutes is too much? Play KotH Bo3. 4-5 minutes per round still too much? Play Arena, surely telling people to kill eachother instead of focus on an objective is a good thing! Oh, wait, permadeath makes people pussyfoot even more. Oops.[/quote]
when people say that the game is too "slow", i dont think they are referring to the length of the rounds. my best guess is that "people" (aka redditors)are saying is that the same way quake is a faster paced game than tf2, tf2 by comparison is slow. the same way tfc is faster paced than tf2, makes tf2 slow. for people who played games like tfc and quake, tf2 really does feel like playing in maple syrup (im speaking from personal experience).
IMO the people you are referring to may have a point, seeing as the VAST majority of TFC'ers (excluding ppl like reptile, dummy) did not start playing competitive tf2 after it came out, or years later, for the reason that tf2 was way too slow.
you might say as a rebuttal that tf2 IS fast, which it is, compared to many fps's on the market today, but not compared to games like quake and tfc.
Think 20 minutes is too much? Play KotH Bo3. 4-5 minutes per round still too much? Play Arena, surely telling people to kill eachother instead of focus on an objective is a good thing! Oh, wait, permadeath makes people pussyfoot even more. Oops.[/quote]
when people say that the game is too "slow", i dont think they are referring to the length of the rounds. my best guess is that "people" (aka redditors)are saying is that the same way quake is a faster paced game than tf2, tf2 by comparison is slow. the same way tfc is faster paced than tf2, makes tf2 slow. for people who played games like tfc and quake, tf2 really does feel like playing in maple syrup (im speaking from personal experience).
IMO the people you are referring to may have a point, seeing as the VAST majority of TFC'ers (excluding ppl like reptile, dummy) did not start playing competitive tf2 after it came out, or years later, for the reason that tf2 was way too slow.
you might say as a rebuttal that tf2 IS fast, which it is, compared to many fps's on the market today, but not compared to games like quake and tfc.
PokemonAdventureYeah but tf2 wouldn't be fun if it wasn't a casual, trollish joke game. Imagine how lame it would be if it had the same olive drab military visuals of every other team fps out there (and how the original design iterations had planned).
Nah. It doesn't have to be the next CoD to have a more serious feel to it. Quake graphics are not realistic in the slightest, but the company supported the game as a competitive FPS and not just a cash cow for cosmetic items. I think the graphics itself in TF2 are fine, but as the comment you replied to stated, Valve did not intend this game to be a game like Quake. Not that it isn't possible to play it competitively, as we all can see, but rather that you have to overcome a lot more to get the same feeling. And as an earlier comment stated as well, the game definitely is "slow" if you compare it to other Quake-esque games, including Quake itself. There seems to be a polarity for a lot of FPS gamers in that they either enjoy Counter Strike or Quake. There have been a lot of players who played both at one point, but most people like to stick to certain styles. For players who loved the Quake games, going from those to TF2 (the logical choice considering TF2 is most like Quake compared to the other shooters out there) must have been strange. The game is much slower in that there are classes like Heavy that move like a slug, with absolutely no way to increase movement speed, other than a 10% speed increase from bhopping perfectly. It's just a different game. You'd see a lot of TF2-cons and clout surrounding top players of this game if it were respected by the players and past sponsors/partners of games like Quake.
For the game to be respected and seen as a rival of games like Quake, Valve needs to step up and shine a light over the competitive community. But for them to support the game competitively, a lot of things could be made less random, and would hurt the current pub mindset of the game. Simple things, like each pipe having differential rotation, where each pipe can have its own distinct rotation and thus roll differently and hit boxes or objects when other pipes fly right past, is an easy thing to change. Will that ever be something that's changed? Of course not. The competitive community has been in an eternal struggle with Valve for a reason -- every update, save the ones that added crosshairs and standardized damage/spread, is counter-intuitive to competitive play. Breaking HUDs, affecting players' frames, adding cosmetic items that cement the game further into its roots of pubsmanship.
That being said, it's not impossible for the game to be a really competitive shooter with a lot of money. The only problem is we're the only ones who know that. Look at shootmania. The game is the most shallow, hilariously simplistic game I've ever played. It has probably the most apt title of all time. ALL you do is shoot. Within less than a month of playing the game competitively, only scrimming by ringing for phelon's team, I was able to take a map off of SK with whaz and dummy in a scrim. That's like a few Quake players or CS players coming over to TF2 and in less than a month, practicing only like 10 scrims in total, taking a map off of Mixup. Never going to happen. But it's possible in shootmania, because there's so few things you need to keep track of. And yet it's heavily supported with LANs in Vegas for a 100K prize pot. The sponsors and, most importantly, Valve, need to support the game if you want to see something like that with this game. Or ESEA could somehow work magic.
[quote=PokemonAdventure]Yeah but tf2 wouldn't be fun if it wasn't a casual, trollish joke game. Imagine how lame it would be if it had the same olive drab military visuals of every other team fps out there (and how the original design iterations had planned).[/quote]
Nah. It doesn't have to be the next CoD to have a more serious feel to it. Quake graphics are not realistic in the slightest, but the company supported the game as a competitive FPS and not just a cash cow for cosmetic items. I think the graphics itself in TF2 are fine, but as the comment you replied to stated, Valve did not intend this game to be a game like Quake. Not that it isn't possible to play it competitively, as we all can see, but rather that you have to overcome a lot more to get the same feeling. And as an earlier comment stated as well, the game definitely is "slow" if you compare it to other Quake-esque games, including Quake itself. There seems to be a polarity for a lot of FPS gamers in that they either enjoy Counter Strike or Quake. There have been a lot of players who played both at one point, but most people like to stick to certain styles. For players who loved the Quake games, going from those to TF2 (the logical choice considering TF2 is most like Quake compared to the other shooters out there) must have been strange. The game is much slower in that there are classes like Heavy that move like a slug, with absolutely no way to increase movement speed, other than a 10% speed increase from bhopping [B]perfectly[/B]. It's just a different game. You'd see a lot of TF2-cons and clout surrounding top players of this game if it were respected by the players and past sponsors/partners of games like Quake.
For the game to be respected and seen as a rival of games like Quake, Valve needs to step up and shine a light over the competitive community. But for them to support the game competitively, a lot of things could be made less random, and would hurt the current pub mindset of the game. Simple things, like each pipe having differential rotation, where each pipe can have its own distinct rotation and thus roll differently and hit boxes or objects when other pipes fly right past, is an easy thing to change. Will that ever be something that's changed? Of course not. The competitive community has been in an eternal struggle with Valve for a reason -- every update, save the ones that added crosshairs and standardized damage/spread, is counter-intuitive to competitive play. Breaking HUDs, affecting players' frames, adding cosmetic items that cement the game further into its roots of pubsmanship.
That being said, it's not impossible for the game to be a really competitive shooter with a lot of money. The only problem is we're the only ones who know that. Look at shootmania. The game is the most shallow, hilariously simplistic game I've ever played. It has probably the most apt title of all time. [B]ALL[/B] you do is shoot. Within less than a month of playing the game competitively, only scrimming by ringing for phelon's team, I was able to take a map off of SK with whaz and dummy in a scrim. That's like a few Quake players or CS players coming over to TF2 and in less than a month, practicing only like 10 scrims in total, taking a map off of Mixup. Never going to happen. But it's possible in shootmania, because there's so few things you need to keep track of. And yet it's heavily supported with LANs in Vegas for a 100K prize pot. The sponsors and, most importantly, Valve, need to support the game if you want to see something like that with this game. Or ESEA could somehow work magic.
Nah. It doesn't have to be the next CoD to have a more serious feel to it. Quake graphics are not realistic in the slightest, but the company supported the game as a competitive FPS and not just a cash cow for cosmetic items. I think the graphics itself in TF2 are fine, but as the comment you replied to stated, Valve did not intend this game to be a game like Quake. Not that it isn't possible to play it competitively, as we all can see, but rather that you have to overcome a lot more to get the same feeling. And as an earlier comment stated as well, the game definitely is "slow" if you compare it to other Quake-esque games, including Quake itself. There seems to be a polarity for a lot of FPS gamers in that they either enjoy Counter Strike or Quake. There have been a lot of players who played both at one point, but most people like to stick to certain styles. For players who loved the Quake games, going from those to TF2 (the logical choice considering TF2 is most like Quake compared to the other shooters out there) must have been strange. The game is much slower in that there are classes like Heavy that move like a slug, with absolutely no way to increase movement speed, other than a 10% speed increase from bhopping [B]perfectly[/B]. It's just a different game. You'd see a lot of TF2-cons and clout surrounding top players of this game if it were respected by the players and past sponsors/partners of games like Quake.
For the game to be respected and seen as a rival of games like Quake, Valve needs to step up and shine a light over the competitive community. But for them to support the game competitively, a lot of things could be made less random, and would hurt the current pub mindset of the game. Simple things, like each pipe having differential rotation, where each pipe can have its own distinct rotation and thus roll differently and hit boxes or objects when other pipes fly right past, is an easy thing to change. Will that ever be something that's changed? Of course not. The competitive community has been in an eternal struggle with Valve for a reason -- every update, save the ones that added crosshairs and standardized damage/spread, is counter-intuitive to competitive play. Breaking HUDs, affecting players' frames, adding cosmetic items that cement the game further into its roots of pubsmanship.
That being said, it's not impossible for the game to be a really competitive shooter with a lot of money. The only problem is we're the only ones who know that. Look at shootmania. The game is the most shallow, hilariously simplistic game I've ever played. It has probably the most apt title of all time. [B]ALL[/B] you do is shoot. Within less than a month of playing the game competitively, only scrimming by ringing for phelon's team, I was able to take a map off of SK with whaz and dummy in a scrim. That's like a few Quake players or CS players coming over to TF2 and in less than a month, practicing only like 10 scrims in total, taking a map off of Mixup. Never going to happen. But it's possible in shootmania, because there's so few things you need to keep track of. And yet it's heavily supported with LANs in Vegas for a 100K prize pot. The sponsors and, most importantly, Valve, need to support the game if you want to see something like that with this game. Or ESEA could somehow work magic.
PokemonAdventureYeah but tf2 wouldn't be fun if it wasn't a casual, trollish joke game. Imagine how lame it would be if it had the same olive drab military visuals of every other team fps out there (and how the original design iterations had planned).
I was talking mostly about the type of jokes and quirks that Valve put into TF2 like taunting, silly voice queues, and even sillier hats. It's not bad that TF2's fun, obviously, but I think Valve tried to hard to make it funny.
[quote=PokemonAdventure]Yeah but tf2 wouldn't be fun if it wasn't a casual, trollish joke game. Imagine how lame it would be if it had the same olive drab military visuals of every other team fps out there (and how the original design iterations had planned).[/quote]
I was talking mostly about the type of jokes and quirks that Valve put into TF2 like taunting, silly voice queues, and even sillier hats. It's not bad that TF2's fun, obviously, but I think Valve tried to hard to make it funny.
I was talking mostly about the type of jokes and quirks that Valve put into TF2 like taunting, silly voice queues, and even sillier hats. It's not bad that TF2's fun, obviously, but I think Valve tried to hard to make it funny.
Let me throw this thought out here: What about the ESRB Rating of TF2?
According to the ESRB, TF2 is rated Mature for "Blood and Gore, Intense Violence", whereas by comparison LoL is rated Teen for "Blood, Fantasy Violence, Mild Suggestive Themes, Use of Alcohol and Tobacco".
I know it sounds a bit weird to those of us that are used to it, but what if some of the difficulty of getting popular is due to the way the characters get gibbed?
Take the airshot example for instance, hitting an airshot onto a target usually (but not always) results in that target exploding into gibs, we're all used to it so we don't make a big deal of it, that guy is down so we can push.
Now, a casual player's reaction might be "OMG, what a sick shot to take that guy out!". But to a true outsider who has no idea how TF2 works sees that same shot and they may say "OMG, that guy was blown to pieces, that's sickening!"
Now I don't think there is only one thing holding TF2 back, there's multiple things keeping it pinned down and we've hit on several of them in this thread. The question is, can we as a community fix it within the current game, or will we have to wait for some word from Valve about improvements on their side of the equation?
Let me throw this thought out here: What about the ESRB Rating of TF2?
According to the ESRB, TF2 is rated Mature for "Blood and Gore, Intense Violence", whereas by comparison LoL is rated Teen for "Blood, Fantasy Violence, Mild Suggestive Themes, Use of Alcohol and Tobacco".
I know it sounds a bit weird to those of us that are used to it, but what if some of the difficulty of getting popular is due to the way the characters get gibbed?
Take the airshot example for instance, hitting an airshot onto a target usually (but not always) results in that target exploding into gibs, we're all used to it so we don't make a big deal of it, that guy is down so we can push.
Now, a casual player's reaction might be "[i]OMG, what a sick shot to take that guy out![/i]". But to a true outsider who has no idea how TF2 works sees that same shot and they may say "[i]OMG, that guy was blown to pieces, that's sickening![/i]"
Now I don't think there is only one thing holding TF2 back, there's multiple things keeping it pinned down and we've hit on several of them in this thread. The question is, can we as a community fix it within the current game, or will we have to wait for some word from Valve about improvements on their side of the equation?
According to the ESRB, TF2 is rated Mature for "Blood and Gore, Intense Violence", whereas by comparison LoL is rated Teen for "Blood, Fantasy Violence, Mild Suggestive Themes, Use of Alcohol and Tobacco".
I know it sounds a bit weird to those of us that are used to it, but what if some of the difficulty of getting popular is due to the way the characters get gibbed?
Take the airshot example for instance, hitting an airshot onto a target usually (but not always) results in that target exploding into gibs, we're all used to it so we don't make a big deal of it, that guy is down so we can push.
Now, a casual player's reaction might be "[i]OMG, what a sick shot to take that guy out![/i]". But to a true outsider who has no idea how TF2 works sees that same shot and they may say "[i]OMG, that guy was blown to pieces, that's sickening![/i]"
Now I don't think there is only one thing holding TF2 back, there's multiple things keeping it pinned down and we've hit on several of them in this thread. The question is, can we as a community fix it within the current game, or will we have to wait for some word from Valve about improvements on their side of the equation?
clckwrkThe game is much slower in that there are classes like Heavy that move like a slug, with absolutely no way to increase movement speed, other than a 10% speed increase from bhopping perfectly
bhopping works in TF2?
[quote=clckwrk]The game is much slower in that there are classes like Heavy that move like a slug, with absolutely no way to increase movement speed, other than a 10% speed increase from bhopping [B]perfectly[/B][/quote]
bhopping works in TF2?
bhopping works in TF2?
SpamfestclckwrkThe game is much slower in that there are classes like Heavy that move like a slug, with absolutely no way to increase movement speed, other than a 10% speed increase from bhopping perfectlybhopping works in TF2?
very slightly. I'm pretty decent at it on medic, I think one of the reasons people consider me good at medic in pugs. If you play your cards right and do it down slopes and on flat ground, you can keep up with the scouts you're healing and escape a lot of spam. The thing is that it's so difficult to time it correctly. There's almost no leeway. It's either you stuck the landing or you didn't. so a lot of the time you can screw yourself over by missing a bunch of consecutive hops that just slows you instead.
[quote=Spamfest][quote=clckwrk]The game is much slower in that there are classes like Heavy that move like a slug, with absolutely no way to increase movement speed, other than a 10% speed increase from bhopping [B]perfectly[/B][/quote]
bhopping works in TF2?[/quote]
very slightly. I'm pretty decent at it on medic, I think one of the reasons people consider me good at medic in pugs. If you play your cards right and do it down slopes and on flat ground, you can keep up with the scouts you're healing and escape a lot of spam. The thing is that it's so difficult to time it correctly. There's almost no leeway. It's either you stuck the landing or you didn't. so a lot of the time you can screw yourself over by missing a bunch of consecutive hops that just slows you instead.
bhopping works in TF2?[/quote]
very slightly. I'm pretty decent at it on medic, I think one of the reasons people consider me good at medic in pugs. If you play your cards right and do it down slopes and on flat ground, you can keep up with the scouts you're healing and escape a lot of spam. The thing is that it's so difficult to time it correctly. There's almost no leeway. It's either you stuck the landing or you didn't. so a lot of the time you can screw yourself over by missing a bunch of consecutive hops that just slows you instead.
You get a speed boost for air control, but AFAIK the walking speed cap kicks in the very frame that you hit the ground, if you're not considered "surfing".
Fun fact: you know the backpedaling speed penalty? You can circlestrafe (quake-like) backwards up to the character's normal max speed.
You get a speed boost for air control, but AFAIK the walking speed cap kicks in the very frame that you hit the ground, if you're not considered "surfing".
Fun fact: you know the backpedaling speed penalty? You can circlestrafe (quake-like) backwards up to the character's normal max speed.
Fun fact: you know the backpedaling speed penalty? You can circlestrafe (quake-like) backwards up to the character's normal max speed.
SpamfestclckwrkThe game is much slower in that there are classes like Heavy that move like a slug, with absolutely no way to increase movement speed, other than a 10% speed increase from bhopping perfectlybhopping works in TF2?
Mike is very good at bhop in tf2, check out some of his vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/DeselectYourMind/videos?flow=grid&view=0
[quote=Spamfest][quote=clckwrk]The game is much slower in that there are classes like Heavy that move like a slug, with absolutely no way to increase movement speed, other than a 10% speed increase from bhopping [B]perfectly[/B][/quote]
bhopping works in TF2?[/quote]
Mike is very good at bhop in tf2, check out some of his vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/DeselectYourMind/videos?flow=grid&view=0
bhopping works in TF2?[/quote]
Mike is very good at bhop in tf2, check out some of his vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/DeselectYourMind/videos?flow=grid&view=0
wareyaFun fact: you know the backpedaling speed penalty? You can circlestrafe (quake-like) backwards up to the character's normal max speed.
Isnt that how you can climb ladders twice as fast in CS??
[quote=wareya]
Fun fact: you know the backpedaling speed penalty? You can circlestrafe (quake-like) backwards up to the character's normal max speed.[/quote]
Isnt that how you can climb ladders twice as fast in CS??
Fun fact: you know the backpedaling speed penalty? You can circlestrafe (quake-like) backwards up to the character's normal max speed.[/quote]
Isnt that how you can climb ladders twice as fast in CS??
We should use this cause Sigma is a wizard: http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/1210-huge-status-monitor
I've used it once in an eXtv cast and a handful of times on my own, and it's pretty simple and it's super awesome and useful.
We should use this cause Sigma is a wizard: http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/1210-huge-status-monitor
I've used it once in an eXtv cast and a handful of times on my own, and it's pretty simple and it's super awesome and useful.
I've used it once in an eXtv cast and a handful of times on my own, and it's pretty simple and it's super awesome and useful.
is it just me or is quake really not all that fast? From what i've seen from watching duels on youtube, a lot of it seems to be running around in circles picking up armors and weapons until they think they have an advantage over their opponent.
is it just me or is quake really not all that fast? From what i've seen from watching duels on youtube, a lot of it seems to be running around in circles picking up armors and weapons until they think they have an advantage over their opponent.
capnfapnis it just me or is quake really not all that fast? From what i've seen from watching duels on youtube, a lot of it seems to be running around in circles picking up armors and weapons until they think they have an advantage over their opponent.
[quote=capnfapn]is it just me or is quake really not all that fast? From what i've seen from watching duels on youtube, a lot of it seems to be running around in circles picking up armors and weapons until they think they have an advantage over their opponent.[/quote]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q76UNcuKSVY[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q76UNcuKSVY[/youtube]
What I think the game needs most of all is a improved spectactor hud with a minimap on the bottom and along with seeing the players health and class, it shows a smaller pov of the player which would allow the spectator to click on that players pov and enlarge it to make it easier to switch users and see who is about to make a big play.
Second I think the only boring thing about the game are the stalemates and I think that is what the OP on reddit is talking about when slowing down the game. As TLR mentions most of these stalemates that last longer than five minutes are teams defending/pushing into last and trying to get a pick. This is the only place I can see the five minute timer come into effect, but still with many implcations on whether it should end in a stalemate or if somethng else like a temporary sudden death that only lasts until a point is capped and then respawning comes back. Still don't know how I feel about that rule(s) however.
Next is getting a bigger mapmaking community. I am still surprised how few competitive maps have been made by mapmakers in the game. I like Granary and Badlands as much as the next person, but I really feel like there should and could be so many more competitive maps made by community members that are better. Similar to what TLR said about maps being a problem.
Last is getting sponsors back into teamfortress 2. Having professional gaming companies/communities/leagues such as valve, razor, alienware, ESEA, IGN (which hosted the 100k pot for shootmania: Storm), EG, etc sponsor teams would help, because nothing can popularize a game more competitivly than having money pumped into it for prizes.
TL:DR, Better spectator hud, more competitive maps, find a way to remove the stalemates that are common when pushing into last or pushing from last, and get sponsors back into tf2.
What I think the game needs most of all is a improved spectactor hud with a minimap on the bottom and along with seeing the players health and class, it shows a smaller pov of the player which would allow the spectator to click on that players pov and enlarge it to make it easier to switch users and see who is about to make a big play.
Second I think the only boring thing about the game are the stalemates and I think that is what the OP on reddit is talking about when slowing down the game. As TLR mentions most of these stalemates that last longer than five minutes are teams defending/pushing into last and trying to get a pick. This is the only place I can see the five minute timer come into effect, but still with many implcations on whether it should end in a stalemate or if somethng else like a temporary sudden death that only lasts until a point is capped and then respawning comes back. Still don't know how I feel about that rule(s) however.
Next is getting a bigger mapmaking community. I am still surprised how few competitive maps have been made by mapmakers in the game. I like Granary and Badlands as much as the next person, but I really feel like there should and could be so many more competitive maps made by community members that are better. Similar to what TLR said about maps being a problem.
Last is getting sponsors back into teamfortress 2. Having professional gaming companies/communities/leagues such as valve, razor, alienware, ESEA, IGN (which hosted the 100k pot for shootmania: Storm), EG, etc sponsor teams would help, because nothing can popularize a game more competitivly than having money pumped into it for prizes.
TL:DR, Better spectator hud, more competitive maps, find a way to remove the stalemates that are common when pushing into last or pushing from last, and get sponsors back into tf2.
Second I think the only boring thing about the game are the stalemates and I think that is what the OP on reddit is talking about when slowing down the game. As TLR mentions most of these stalemates that last longer than five minutes are teams defending/pushing into last and trying to get a pick. This is the only place I can see the five minute timer come into effect, but still with many implcations on whether it should end in a stalemate or if somethng else like a temporary sudden death that only lasts until a point is capped and then respawning comes back. Still don't know how I feel about that rule(s) however.
Next is getting a bigger mapmaking community. I am still surprised how few competitive maps have been made by mapmakers in the game. I like Granary and Badlands as much as the next person, but I really feel like there should and could be so many more competitive maps made by community members that are better. Similar to what TLR said about maps being a problem.
Last is getting sponsors back into teamfortress 2. Having professional gaming companies/communities/leagues such as valve, razor, alienware, ESEA, IGN (which hosted the 100k pot for shootmania: Storm), EG, etc sponsor teams would help, because nothing can popularize a game more competitivly than having money pumped into it for prizes.
TL:DR, Better spectator hud, more competitive maps, find a way to remove the stalemates that are common when pushing into last or pushing from last, and get sponsors back into tf2.
DrewI was talking mostly about the type of jokes and quirks that Valve put into TF2 like taunting, silly voice queues, and even sillier hats. It's not bad that TF2's fun, obviously, but I think Valve tried to hard to make it funny.
It wasn't too heavy in the beginning, but eventually they kind of shot themselves in the foot with some of the "design." I think it's mostly because updates are so frequent that they don't have their Valve time to perfect it.
I think it's also a case of feeling like TF2 has already been out too long to start doing stuff now, but they are trying to work with GO and Dota. Maybe they'll do the same with TF3?
[quote=Drew]I was talking mostly about the type of jokes and quirks that Valve put into TF2 like taunting, silly voice queues, and even sillier hats. It's not bad that TF2's fun, obviously, but I think Valve tried to hard to make it funny.[/quote]
It wasn't too heavy in the beginning, but eventually they kind of shot themselves in the foot with some of the "design." I think it's mostly because updates are so frequent that they don't have their Valve time to perfect it.
I think it's also a case of feeling like TF2 has already been out too long to start doing stuff now, but they are trying to work with GO and Dota. Maybe they'll do the same with TF3?
It wasn't too heavy in the beginning, but eventually they kind of shot themselves in the foot with some of the "design." I think it's mostly because updates are so frequent that they don't have their Valve time to perfect it.
I think it's also a case of feeling like TF2 has already been out too long to start doing stuff now, but they are trying to work with GO and Dota. Maybe they'll do the same with TF3?
TwinweaponsWhat I think the game needs most of all is a improved spectactor hud with a minimap on the bottom and along with seeing the players health and class, it shows a smaller pov of the player which would allow the spectator to click on that players pov and enlarge it to make it easier to switch users and see who is about to make a big play.
this is a good idea and i like it
Second I think the only boring thing about the game are the stalemates and I think that is what the OP on reddit is talking about when slowing down the game. As TLR mentions most of these stalemates that last longer than five minutes are teams defending/pushing into last and trying to get a pick. This is the only place I can see the five minute timer come into effect, but still with many implcations on whether it should end in a stalemate or if somethng else like a temporary sudden death that only lasts until a point is capped and then respawning comes back. Still don't know how I feel about that rule(s) however.
if you cant make something happen in 5 minutes then you deserve to have to win mid again
Next is getting a bigger mapmaking community. I am still surprised how few competitive maps have been made by mapmakers in the game. I like Granary and Badlands as much as the next person, but I really feel like there should and could be so many more competitive maps made by community members that are better. Similar to what TLR said about maps being a problem.
people make maps all the time, other than snakewater and process they have been pretty much always awful due to poor playtesting/feedback in the design phase
Last is getting sponsors back into teamfortress 2. Having professional gaming companies/communities/leagues such as valve, razor, alienware, ESEA, IGN (which hosted the 100k pot for shootmania: Storm), EG, etc sponsor teams would help, because nothing can popularize a game more competitivly than having money pumped into it for prizes.
sponsors look mainly at stream numbers now, you know what that means
[quote=Twinweapons]What I think the game needs most of all is a improved spectactor hud with a minimap on the bottom and along with seeing the players health and class, it shows a smaller pov of the player which would allow the spectator to click on that players pov and enlarge it to make it easier to switch users and see who is about to make a big play.[/quote]
this is a good idea and i like it
[quote]
Second I think the only boring thing about the game are the stalemates and I think that is what the OP on reddit is talking about when slowing down the game. As TLR mentions most of these stalemates that last longer than five minutes are teams defending/pushing into last and trying to get a pick. This is the only place I can see the five minute timer come into effect, but still with many implcations on whether it should end in a stalemate or if somethng else like a temporary sudden death that only lasts until a point is capped and then respawning comes back. Still don't know how I feel about that rule(s) however.[/quote]
if you cant make something happen in 5 minutes then you deserve to have to win mid again
[quote]
Next is getting a bigger mapmaking community. I am still surprised how few competitive maps have been made by mapmakers in the game. I like Granary and Badlands as much as the next person, but I really feel like there should and could be so many more competitive maps made by community members that are better. Similar to what TLR said about maps being a problem.
[/quote]
people make maps all the time, other than snakewater and process they have been pretty much always awful due to poor playtesting/feedback in the design phase
[quote]
Last is getting sponsors back into teamfortress 2. Having professional gaming companies/communities/leagues such as valve, razor, alienware, ESEA, IGN (which hosted the 100k pot for shootmania: Storm), EG, etc sponsor teams would help, because nothing can popularize a game more competitivly than having money pumped into it for prizes.[/quote]
sponsors look mainly at stream numbers now, you know what that means
this is a good idea and i like it
[quote]
Second I think the only boring thing about the game are the stalemates and I think that is what the OP on reddit is talking about when slowing down the game. As TLR mentions most of these stalemates that last longer than five minutes are teams defending/pushing into last and trying to get a pick. This is the only place I can see the five minute timer come into effect, but still with many implcations on whether it should end in a stalemate or if somethng else like a temporary sudden death that only lasts until a point is capped and then respawning comes back. Still don't know how I feel about that rule(s) however.[/quote]
if you cant make something happen in 5 minutes then you deserve to have to win mid again
[quote]
Next is getting a bigger mapmaking community. I am still surprised how few competitive maps have been made by mapmakers in the game. I like Granary and Badlands as much as the next person, but I really feel like there should and could be so many more competitive maps made by community members that are better. Similar to what TLR said about maps being a problem.
[/quote]
people make maps all the time, other than snakewater and process they have been pretty much always awful due to poor playtesting/feedback in the design phase
[quote]
Last is getting sponsors back into teamfortress 2. Having professional gaming companies/communities/leagues such as valve, razor, alienware, ESEA, IGN (which hosted the 100k pot for shootmania: Storm), EG, etc sponsor teams would help, because nothing can popularize a game more competitivly than having money pumped into it for prizes.[/quote]
sponsors look mainly at stream numbers now, you know what that means
The new ozfortress LiveLogs system has a 2D STV feature for stock maps which is more or less a minimap, would it be possible to implement something similar for ESEA that casters could use as an overlay for live games?
The new ozfortress LiveLogs system has a 2D STV feature for stock maps which is more or less a minimap, would it be possible to implement something similar for ESEA that casters could use as an overlay for live games?
Re: mini maps/overviews/etc.
While I can't say if this will end up on ESEA servers or not at the moment, stuff is being worked on.
Edit to clarify, was on phone: This is a web app, it requires SourceMod atm, but is being ported to Valve's plugin API. All of it will be open source once the Valve plugin is stable-ish (currently just one bug!)
Re: mini maps/overviews/etc.
While I can't say if this will end up on ESEA servers or not at the moment, [url=http://imgur.com/GmTUGOA.jpg]stuff is being worked on[/url].
Edit to clarify, was on phone: This is a web app, it requires SourceMod atm, but is being ported to Valve's plugin API. All of it will be open source once the Valve plugin is stable-ish (currently just one bug!)
While I can't say if this will end up on ESEA servers or not at the moment, [url=http://imgur.com/GmTUGOA.jpg]stuff is being worked on[/url].
Edit to clarify, was on phone: This is a web app, it requires SourceMod atm, but is being ported to Valve's plugin API. All of it will be open source once the Valve plugin is stable-ish (currently just one bug!)
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