make demo great again (give glock) = problem solved

What? If anything you could buff scout even more to have less stalemates. He's the least stalematey class in the game.

I AM NOT SAYING BUFFING SCOUT IS A GOOD IDEA.

every soldier bomb gets denied by scouts man.

Friendly reminder that ubercharges create stalemates, and certain maps merely magnify the importance of retaining uber.

Shorter rounds don't entirely make sense because while it doesn't directly encourage parking the bus, the benefits of stalemating until a new round would simply begin to outweigh the downsides of not pushing as the round timer got closer and closer to expiring, given that both teams are stuck in an uber v uber stalemate

I'm pretty sure that the "we need more koth maps" train is in full force for a lot of the competitive playerbase but once this season is over then getting more teams to play on it and come up with strategies can become the primary focus.

While this idea is probably way off the deep end for thinking, I wonder if having both medics run perma-kritz would make for an interesting spin on things, as kritz certainly can help open up a push. It's more likely that this is just a really bad idea that shouldn't be tested but it's worth a suggestion

wasn't Yukon removed because the sniper sightlines were ridiculous or something like that I remember something like that being mentioned about it but I can't confirm it myself

Playing more Koth is the only viable solution to this "issue", if you see it that way as Koth isn't universally unpopular and the way it works always encourages pushing or you lose.Only other solutions offered here involve some sort of meddling with the timelimits or encouraging teams to improve their play to be more clinical or change playstyles...etc - Sort of change can't be affected as easily as simply introducing more Koth.

Personally I want to see more gamemodes in 6v6 to allow for greater innovation of strategies, but I gather the vast majority of people currently in competitive TF2 don't wanna see 6v6 on Badwater and maps like Gpit and Turbine have never truly taken off (imo cos nobody wants to play them outside of gameweek), so trying Koth maps is the only way forward. Work in a 2nd Koth map into the map pool permanently from now on is a good way forward.

lol

Have fun pushing anything without uber. Holding chokepoints has never been easier.

As soon as there's more than 1 good koth map, people will play more koth.
Play more koth maps? Make better koth maps.

what if we took out the match timer and made the win limit arbitrarily large so that teams start playing faster because they want the game to be over?
like the winlimit is 10 rounds and then people eventually start doing new pushes more often so that they can go home and see their families

It would be essentially a golden cap

so kinda like CSGO ?

I don't think limiting the entire round to 10 minutes would be a good idea.
Rather reduce the time per point to like 5 minutes.
Just because a round takes 10+ minutes doesn't mean it's super stalematey or boring to watch.
It can take 10+ minutes because teams are trading points back and forth all the time and those are actually really fun rounds to watch and play.

To be honest I think the only real problem with the meta as far as stalemates go is when one team has a comfortable lead and decides to just turtle a point and let the clock run down until they won.
In situations where the scores are even and both teams are motivated to try and win the round, I don't really mind if it takes a while before either team caps a point because both teams are a little afraid to fully commit to a push and risk losing the fight and getting rolled to last.
Those situations I actually find quite interesting to watch.
Sure, they are not as action heavy, but just full on team fights all the time would be kinda boring after a while I think.

Maybe what you could do is have a time limit of 5 min for 1st and 2nd points and one of only 2 min for mid?
Because if your goal is to park the bus and let the clock run out, mid is typically the easiest/safest point to do it on.
And I don't know, but maybe lasts should stay at 10 minutes?
Because it feels like if the round resets after 5 minutes it might become too valuable of a tactic to just completely turtle down for 5min and not even try to push out, because getting a fresh try on mid is saver than risking to lose a push from first and lose it and then lose the round.

This entire post irks me because it's demonstrably wrong. Just go look at Overwatch's game design -- note that by design there is never going to be a situation where it's in both teams' best interest to not push. They must have realised that it was an issue in tf2, the game they were ripping off heavily inspired by, and they took steps to ensure it wouldn't ruin their game. If only Valve were as proactive.

in cs there aren't any health packs, healing characters or respawns so that definitely plays a role in rounds not needing to be as long. Also a lot of push strats involve simply having 2 terrorists peek the same guy with a flash and going for trade kills to gain advantages. You can't really just double peek someone in tf2 and kill them because scouts can run and soldiers can jump away, meanwhile any damage that you do to them can be restored through a medic or health pack. This makes it A LOT harder to get picks and give yourself an advantage. It's not really a fair comparison.

think outside of the box
not round timers
item timers

Overwatch has it's own issues, the healing in that game makes picks nearly impossible to achieve and before mercy was nerfed whichever team's mercy ulted last won. Defending in overwatch is close to impossible as well given both teams are of equal skill. Sure there aren't any stalemates but i for one don't want to play a game where the objective is racing for the fastest offensive time.

This is probably a really retarded idea which has a ton of problems but as a suggestion:
-reduce the round timer to 5 minutes which does not increase if a point is capped (maybe the time resets when a team retakes a point? Idk)
-the team with the most points capped at the end of 5 minutes gains 1 point and a new midfight begins, however...
-if a team wins by capping last they gain 2 points (mp_windifference and mp_winlimit may need to be adjusted), so there is a decent incentive for the team with the most points capped to push to massively increase their advantage, and the defending team HAS to push, but may get punished (which would be better from a spectator point of view because there is some pushing going on at least), leading to another mid. This is probably a pretty radical change, thoughts?
Edit: this is based on Eu rules, so 30 min round timer. Not talking about Esea here.

I don't think you follow or play overwatch enough to support such a claim.
Not saying it doesn't have issues but man you missed the goal by a mile there.

What if you added a KOTH-like element to 5CP?

When you hit the round time limit, the team with the most time on the forward cap wins.

I think that most time with the 4th capture point would work, but maybe you'd have to toss mid in there if that doesn't work as planned. This way there's always an incentive for a team to push out.

This is much simpler than some of the suggestions with a different point system, doesn't require a change in the round timer, and could be fairly easily integrated into the game, displaying a countdown clock and a red/blue count up clock recording amount of time with a forward cap held.

In a nutshell:

Everything remains the same, except:
Track the amount of time red/blue has held 4th point (maybe mid if that doesn't work after some trials)
If the round times out, the team with the longest time where they've held that cap wins.

Pros:
Will encourage teams to push out of last and not turtle

Cons:
Might encourage teams to sit on 4? (I'm not too worried about this though, because people will still want to cap and end the round and defenders won't want to waste time sitting on last).

im pretty sure this would just encourage teams to sit on the 4th point and make it so the team holding last would be forced to push out 6v6 with no advantages. I dont really think that's at all better as it would be a lot harder to push out of last than to push into last. Teams that held the 4th point wouldnt sack any players into last and would probably just set up on 2nd and pretty much win the game. People already complain that its really difficult to push out of last, could you imagine how much harder this would be if the team that held the 4th point was playing back and trying to defend 4th rather than capping last?

Look at a map like badlands for example: if a team wins mid and caps 2nd for free, all they would have to do to win the round is sit on top spire with 2 soldiers, a medic (and probably a heavy if you're playing really gay) and then have your demo trap shutter and drop down. How is a team supposed to push out of last and re-cap 2nd against this? There's no incentive for the team that holds the spire to push last because 99% of the time they'll be more likely to win the round by turtling on spire and running out the clock while the other team is forced into a terrible push out of last. If you think its hard pushing out of badlands last now, just imagine how hard it would be if the team that has spire capped was just sitting there with full uber waiting for you to try and push out.

Either way you're going to have stalemates. But i'd much prefer to have the burden to push be on the team holding second than on the team holding last. Otherwise a team can just cap 2nd, play really gay and hold it until the round ends.

What if scout and demo could wear banners

Very good points. I hadn't given much thought to map-specific examples.

If stalemates are an issue, then perhaps the solution is adjusting maps to make pushing out a bit easier? I assume that this would also make pushing in easier (larger or more doors, for example). Seems like a win-win.

Interesting idea IMO but the numbers might need to be adjusted

I don't know... wouldn't it be super unsatisfying if the round just ends with nothing happening other than the clock running out?
In koth it's exciting because you can turn a game around to the last second, because you can cap with 1 second left and then hold the point.
But in 5cp there'd be a certain point (probably with 1-2mins left) where the round is basically over if one team is holding 4th, because there's a very small chance for the other team to cap BOTH 4th and mid in time, plus they'd have to play super risky with the time against them and risk losing last and giving the enemy an extra point.
I think it would end up being whoever wins mid gets 1 point and 2 point rounds rarely ever happen.
Because if you win mid, more often then not you also get 4th.
When you have 4th and 3-4mins left until you get 1 point, you'll most likely want to sit on 4th and play it super save and only go for a last push if you get a lucky pick, because doing that means an almost guaranteed point, because the enemy would have to first win a push against a full-on defense and then also take mid from you and both with a time restraint.
And even if you don't get 4th right after mid, mids are typically easy to defend, so turtling on mid for 4mins will probably be more attractive to most teams than trying to cap 2 more points and risk losing your 1 score if your push goes wrong and the enemy gets momentum and takes mid from you.

Just from skimming around these types of threads and reading the posts, it just seems like nearly all or most of the suggestions/ideas made result in the same consequence of "teams will hold back even more and are even more likely to stalemate" or "it will make it even worse". Some of the reasons about how the maps are made seem like a fair point on why it happens, but I don't know. It'd be great if we could have some server mod to experiment different rulesets(ability to change the values on timers, cap rates, etc.) to actually test and see if something actually wouldn't work or not. But then that would require people even willing to make such a mod and the people to play it.

a lot of the changes suggested itt misunderstand the root problem with 5cp stalemates. the issue is that holding your opponents 2 while you are ahead in rounds is simply safer than trying to turn over a point. for 5cp to not have stalemate situations, a change would need to be made that actively punishes players who sit on their opponents 2nd or mid for long periods of time, so that teams are incentivized to push into points when they are on the offense.

another thing that could be done to improve the stalemate situation without some complicated rule change is just to nerf sniper and buff spy. I know this is an incredibly unpopular thought, but the reasoning is pretty simple: if you switch to sniper for a pick, its very unlikely that you will die. if you switch to spy for a pick, its very likely that you will die. when you go for a pick, it should give the other team an opportunity to do something if it fails. with sniper, there is no real failure other than missing and rotating to a different door, and playing sniper is the best way to counter a sniper which makes both teams less capable of pushing. if the classes were reversed in playability, then a failed spy play would guarantee the other team an opportunity to either push with a man up or go for a sac of their own with a better turnover rate than against a sniper.

I think a lot of you guys are looking at this from the wrong angle. The reason 5cp can induce stalemates is not due to the configuration of how round timers work, and thusly changing said configuration won't suddenly vanish the need to stalemate.

Sideshow said it best in his Some Flaws with 5cp video. The reason teams would (and frankly should) rather stalemate than push is because without a big advantage, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage when pushing just because you're more likely to make a mistake pushing as compared to holding. Teams chose to stalemate because waiting for your opponent to make a mistake when they push involves less risk than pushing yourself.

For example, in equal uber situations, using your uber earlier than the enemy team is seen as putting yourself at a slight disadvantage, however TF2 is designed in such a way that in order to push against a team that defends well, you will almost always have to use your uber first. This means that in such a situation, you are taking a risk by simply trying to push. Let's not forget about all the other things that can go wrong when pushing that can lead to a failed push attempt and a successful counter-push from the enemy team.

Stalematey TF2 is a result of the way TF2's classes and their mechanics are designed, as well as how the community has designed 6v6. If we want to rid stalemates from 6v6, the game's mechanics and the gamemode's rules need to be designed in such a way where the chances of pushing successfully outweigh those of holding successfully.

It wasn't meant to be I was just pointing out that under time constraints teams can accomplish quite a lot and in 5cp there is no pressure from the clock at all. The games are completely different in how you output damage/get picks but the idea that in 5cp you need a third of the map time per capture point seems bogus to me. Also just to be clear I'm not arguing that this will somehow fix all of the stalemates in 5cp, moreso that shorter round timers might *maybe* prevent the long stalemates and add a bit more pressure to matches like this https://logs.tf/1620016#76561198044459507 (this might be a bad example I didn't see how long the time was spent on each cp but you get my point).

The argument to shortened round timers is that teams will just turtle and wait for the round to expire so the game will reset to mid but I don't think is true at all if you only shaved off a few minutes. Sure if you made the round timers really short (like 2-3minutes) this would probably become a viable strat. But if teams had something like 5 minutes per point both teams would have plenty of time to push and counter push and experiment with different strats. The only difference is that the clock is a bit more punishing if both teams fail to coordinate a push and honestly for the really stalematey games resetting back to mid might be a good thing.

Just make the round clock 5 minutes long and you get round points depending on how many control points you control on the map

my idea to Fix 5cp 6v6. My idea is to fix it. Thank's

My idea to fix 5cp

- Each medic has a chip implanted in their neck
- If a stalemate lasts longer than 2 minutes, each medic will be set to explode on a 30 second timer
- Timer can only be deactivated if a certain damage threshold across the entire team is met or if the medic ubers