the last time we let admins decide what to ban and unban we had triple jumping scouts, parachutes, and the quick-fix so it's blatantly obvious that if leagues want a universal whitelist then they need to do a universal polling and compile results
can we ban most unlocks yet?
posted in
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the last time we let admins decide what to ban and unban we had triple jumping scouts, parachutes, and the quick-fix so it's blatantly obvious that if leagues want a universal whitelist then they need to do a universal polling and compile results
I would be all about banning the cow mangler if some maps had better ammo pack distributions
When you're roamer and you're making sure that flank is sealed down it becomes really annoying running by where everyone else is holding and having every ammo pack taken by any member of the combo (either demo or soldier)
Soldier is inherently dependent on his rockets, so not running out of rockets when your job is to rocket jump all over the place makes the class slightly less painful, specially when valve buffs scouts with each major update
I would be all about banning the cow mangler if some maps had better ammo pack distributions
When you're roamer and you're making sure that flank is sealed down it becomes really annoying running by where everyone else is holding and having every ammo pack taken by any member of the combo (either demo or soldier)
Soldier is inherently dependent on his rockets, so not running out of rockets when your job is to rocket jump all over the place makes the class slightly less painful, specially when valve buffs scouts with each major update
When you're roamer and you're making sure that flank is sealed down it becomes really annoying running by where everyone else is holding and having every ammo pack taken by any member of the combo (either demo or soldier)
Soldier is inherently dependent on his rockets, so not running out of rockets when your job is to rocket jump all over the place makes the class slightly less painful, specially when valve buffs scouts with each major update
viperthe last time we let admins decide what to ban and unban we had triple jumping scouts, parachutes, and the quick-fix so it's blatantly obvious that if leagues want a universal whitelist then they need to do a universal polling and compile results
I'd like to point out (just for the admin's sake) that the admins usually have little to nothing to do with the actual discussion. They are mostly just there to make sure each league will be running the same thing, which makes sense. If you were at the public whitelist meeting I don't think any admins really gave much argument except for the EU admin that was being the messenger for Se7en about the LAN whitelist. From what I've heard and experienced the whitelist discussions were usually dominated by b4nny but I wasn't at the first one so I don't know first hand.
[quote=viper]the last time we let admins decide what to ban and unban we had triple jumping scouts, parachutes, and the quick-fix so it's blatantly obvious that if leagues want a universal whitelist then they need to do a universal polling and compile results[/quote]
I'd like to point out (just for the admin's sake) that the admins usually have little to nothing to do with the actual discussion. They are mostly just there to make sure each league will be running the same thing, which makes sense. If you were at the public whitelist meeting I don't think any admins really gave much argument except for the EU admin that was being the messenger for Se7en about the LAN whitelist. From what I've heard and experienced the whitelist discussions were usually dominated by b4nny but I wasn't at the first one so I don't know first hand.
I'd like to point out (just for the admin's sake) that the admins usually have little to nothing to do with the actual discussion. They are mostly just there to make sure each league will be running the same thing, which makes sense. If you were at the public whitelist meeting I don't think any admins really gave much argument except for the EU admin that was being the messenger for Se7en about the LAN whitelist. From what I've heard and experienced the whitelist discussions were usually dominated by b4nny but I wasn't at the first one so I don't know first hand.
knuckI'd like to point out (just for the admin's sake) that the admins usually have little to nothing to do with the actual discussion. They are mostly just there to make sure each league will be running the same thing, which makes sense. If you were at the public whitelist meeting I don't think any admins really gave much argument except for the EU admin that was being the messenger for Se7en about the LAN whitelist. From what I've heard and experienced the whitelist discussions were usually dominated by b4nny but I wasn't at the first one so I don't know first hand.
the only reason i brought it up was because when it came time to discuss banning or unbanning jarate, practically the entire na and au sides were in agreement, but then like one single person (i think it was like dmoule or damneasy or something) said to unban the jarate and everyone switched to agreeing with him like a flock of lemmings, so i figured he was some eu admin
[quote=knuck]I'd like to point out (just for the admin's sake) that the admins usually have little to nothing to do with the actual discussion. They are mostly just there to make sure each league will be running the same thing, which makes sense. If you were at the public whitelist meeting I don't think any admins really gave much argument except for the EU admin that was being the messenger for Se7en about the LAN whitelist. From what I've heard and experienced the whitelist discussions were usually dominated by b4nny but I wasn't at the first one so I don't know first hand.[/quote]
the only reason i brought it up was because when it came time to discuss banning or unbanning jarate, practically the entire na and au sides were in agreement, but then like one single person (i think it was like dmoule or damneasy or something) said to unban the jarate and everyone switched to agreeing with him like a flock of lemmings, so i figured he was some eu admin
the only reason i brought it up was because when it came time to discuss banning or unbanning jarate, practically the entire na and au sides were in agreement, but then like one single person (i think it was like dmoule or damneasy or something) said to unban the jarate and everyone switched to agreeing with him like a flock of lemmings, so i figured he was some eu admin
^I think you mean don't ban the jarate (unless I'm gravely mistaken)
just as a curious question was there ever a serious consensus reached on whether or not the banners help to break stalemates or do they just end up promoting them?
^I think you mean don't ban the jarate (unless I'm gravely mistaken)
just as a curious question was there ever a serious consensus reached on whether or not the banners help to break stalemates or do they just end up promoting them?
just as a curious question was there ever a serious consensus reached on whether or not the banners help to break stalemates or do they just end up promoting them?
Marxist
thank you. weapon literally trivializes good heal order and half of the mechanics of medic in general.
shit needs to be banned asap.
[quote=Marxist][/quote]
thank you. weapon literally trivializes good heal order and half of the mechanics of medic in general.
shit needs to be banned asap.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/vrwDU.png[/img]
thank you. weapon literally trivializes good heal order and half of the mechanics of medic in general.
shit needs to be banned asap.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/vrwDU.png[/img]
@59 But that's not a huge deal, a lot of the useless weapons can't even be used for a cheesy play (back scatter, liberty launcher, most of the mêlées) while the few that can (shields, backburner or phlog) will only work like once a map and their efficiency is not guaranteed either.
IMO we should only ban the weapons that are too good or force the other team to run them. The "useless" weapons actually have 2 uses : gimmicks and creating the illusion of choice for newer players, who won't feel forced to run a specific weapon. Everyone will tell them to use the good ones anyway, and they can try them in a pug or a scrim once, see that it sucks and change it.
@59 But that's not a huge deal, a lot of the useless weapons can't even be used for a cheesy play (back scatter, liberty launcher, most of the mêlées) while the few that can (shields, backburner or phlog) will only work like once a map and their efficiency is not guaranteed either.
IMO we should only ban the weapons that are too good or force the other team to run them. The "useless" weapons actually have 2 uses : gimmicks and creating the illusion of choice for newer players, who won't feel forced to run a specific weapon. Everyone will tell them to use the good ones anyway, and they can try them in a pug or a scrim once, see that it sucks and change it.
IMO we should only ban the weapons that are too good or force the other team to run them. The "useless" weapons actually have 2 uses : gimmicks and creating the illusion of choice for newer players, who won't feel forced to run a specific weapon. Everyone will tell them to use the good ones anyway, and they can try them in a pug or a scrim once, see that it sucks and change it.
people still haven't got over this lol. Slin has to answer this question every global whitelist meeting.
people still haven't got over this lol. Slin has to answer this question every global whitelist meeting.
LyreixI would be all about banning the cow mangler if some maps had better ammo pack distributions
When you're roamer and you're making sure that flank is sealed down it becomes really annoying running by where everyone else is holding and having every ammo pack taken by any member of the combo (either demo or soldier)
Soldier is inherently dependent on his rockets, so not running out of rockets when your job is to rocket jump all over the place makes the class slightly less painful, specially when valve buffs scouts with each major update
what map are you having ammo troubles on roamer? every map on rotation has flank ammo packs ever since pro granary, and you don't have to share them with a demoman unlike the pocket.
[quote=Lyreix]I would be all about banning the cow mangler if some maps had better ammo pack distributions
When you're roamer and you're making sure that flank is sealed down it becomes really annoying running by where everyone else is holding and having every ammo pack taken by any member of the combo (either demo or soldier)
Soldier is inherently dependent on his rockets, so not running out of rockets when your job is to rocket jump all over the place makes the class slightly less painful, specially when valve buffs scouts with each major update[/quote]
what map are you having ammo troubles on roamer? every map on rotation has flank ammo packs ever since pro granary, and you don't have to share them with a demoman unlike the pocket.
When you're roamer and you're making sure that flank is sealed down it becomes really annoying running by where everyone else is holding and having every ammo pack taken by any member of the combo (either demo or soldier)
Soldier is inherently dependent on his rockets, so not running out of rockets when your job is to rocket jump all over the place makes the class slightly less painful, specially when valve buffs scouts with each major update[/quote]
what map are you having ammo troubles on roamer? every map on rotation has flank ammo packs ever since pro granary, and you don't have to share them with a demoman unlike the pocket.
AelkyrThe "useless" weapons actually have 2 uses : gimmicks and creating the illusion of choice for newer players, who won't feel forced to run a specific weapon. Everyone will tell them to use the good ones anyway, and they can try them in a pug or a scrim once, see that it sucks and change it.
That isn't how that plays out though, what's ended up happening is new players feel more overwhelmed by a big open whitelist when what they actually want (arguably even moreso than most high level players, who as we can see from this thread definitely want it) is a clean and concise "this is unbanned because it's a good weapon in the meta." New players aren't going into competitive so they can do whatever with their favorite gimmicky weapons, they're getting into it because they want to learn how the meta works and how to play well, and an open whitelist is just another (unneeded) obstacle.
Another big issue for new players is that when you allow a bunch of dumb, bad unlocks that no one would seriously use, more experienced players who're dicking around will use them just to dominate people who aren't skilled enough to deal with that yet. And that's a huge discouragement for new players. Even just getting wiped and losing a round a minute to a team actually playing is better because at least they see another team do what they're supposed to, fighting against a team of gimmick loadouts is just a frustrating waste of time for everyone involved.
There isn't really harm in useless unlocks for experienced players, but it is bad for new ones. Personally I think that if a weapon doesn't have a clear benefit to being included in the meta, it should be banned entirely, because useless stuff only makes understanding the meta harder for newbies and makes stomping even more pointless and discouraging.
We've tried to see the benefits; telling valve "this thing isn't overpowered" and trying to convince pubbers that "we're not elitists or playing a completely different game, look our whitelist has only a few things banned", neither one worked or had any actual impact, so I don't know why people are still trying to hold on to those like they might start working if we just give it more time.
Winterzpeople still haven't got over this lol. Slin has to answer this question every global whitelist meeting.
Well yeah, because the whitelist hasn't actually gotten any better.
[quote=Aelkyr]The "useless" weapons actually have 2 uses : gimmicks and creating the illusion of choice for newer players, who won't feel forced to run a specific weapon. Everyone will tell them to use the good ones anyway, and they can try them in a pug or a scrim once, see that it sucks and change it.[/quote]
That isn't how that plays out though, what's ended up happening is new players feel more overwhelmed by a big open whitelist when what they actually want (arguably even moreso than most high level players, who as we can see from this thread definitely want it) is a clean and concise "this is unbanned because it's a good weapon in the meta." New players aren't going into competitive so they can do whatever with their favorite gimmicky weapons, they're getting into it because they want to learn how the meta works and how to play well, and an open whitelist is just another (unneeded) obstacle.
Another big issue for new players is that when you allow a bunch of dumb, bad unlocks that no one would seriously use, more experienced players who're dicking around will use them just to dominate people who aren't skilled enough to deal with that yet. And that's a huge discouragement for new players. Even just getting wiped and losing a round a minute to a team actually playing is better because at least they see another team do what they're supposed to, fighting against a team of gimmick loadouts is just a frustrating waste of time for everyone involved.
There isn't really harm in useless unlocks for experienced players, but it is bad for new ones. Personally I think that if a weapon doesn't have a clear benefit to being included in the meta, it should be banned entirely, because useless stuff only makes understanding the meta harder for newbies and makes stomping even more pointless and discouraging.
We've tried to see the benefits; telling valve "this thing isn't overpowered" and trying to convince pubbers that "we're not elitists or playing a completely different game, look our whitelist has only a few things banned", neither one worked or had any actual impact, so I don't know why people are still trying to hold on to those like they might start working if we just give it more time.
[quote=Winterz]people still haven't got over this lol. Slin has to answer this question every global whitelist meeting.[/quote]
Well yeah, because the whitelist hasn't actually gotten any better.
That isn't how that plays out though, what's ended up happening is new players feel more overwhelmed by a big open whitelist when what they actually want (arguably even moreso than most high level players, who as we can see from this thread definitely want it) is a clean and concise "this is unbanned because it's a good weapon in the meta." New players aren't going into competitive so they can do whatever with their favorite gimmicky weapons, they're getting into it because they want to learn how the meta works and how to play well, and an open whitelist is just another (unneeded) obstacle.
Another big issue for new players is that when you allow a bunch of dumb, bad unlocks that no one would seriously use, more experienced players who're dicking around will use them just to dominate people who aren't skilled enough to deal with that yet. And that's a huge discouragement for new players. Even just getting wiped and losing a round a minute to a team actually playing is better because at least they see another team do what they're supposed to, fighting against a team of gimmick loadouts is just a frustrating waste of time for everyone involved.
There isn't really harm in useless unlocks for experienced players, but it is bad for new ones. Personally I think that if a weapon doesn't have a clear benefit to being included in the meta, it should be banned entirely, because useless stuff only makes understanding the meta harder for newbies and makes stomping even more pointless and discouraging.
We've tried to see the benefits; telling valve "this thing isn't overpowered" and trying to convince pubbers that "we're not elitists or playing a completely different game, look our whitelist has only a few things banned", neither one worked or had any actual impact, so I don't know why people are still trying to hold on to those like they might start working if we just give it more time.
[quote=Winterz]people still haven't got over this lol. Slin has to answer this question every global whitelist meeting.[/quote]
Well yeah, because the whitelist hasn't actually gotten any better.
People worried that they can't use their favorite engie and heavy unlocks are below water buffalo calves on a list of people likely to be good at the game. Catering to them should be the absolute lowest priority.
People worried that they can't use their favorite engie and heavy unlocks are below water buffalo calves on a list of people likely to be good at the game. Catering to them should be the absolute lowest priority.
ITT: people who don't play medic talk about the best ways to make medic even less fun to play than it already is
ITT: people who don't play medic talk about the best ways to make medic even less fun to play than it already is
thesqrtminus1ITT: people who don't play medic talk about the best ways to make medic even less fun to play than it already is
did you just say Marxist doesnt play medic
[quote=thesqrtminus1]ITT: people who don't play medic talk about the best ways to make medic even less fun to play than it already is[/quote]
did you just say Marxist doesnt play medic
did you just say Marxist doesnt play medic
JarateKinggood counterpoint
That is very true, I had not seen things like this but what you're saying totally makes sense.
That's a shame because I love gimmicks (typical euro)
That said, I still think that the whitelist suggested in page one (http://whitelist.tf/7142) could use a few more items, so here are my suggestions :
- Winger : Already allowed, nothing wrong with it.
- Black Box : Allows for a more sustainable roamer but with one less rocket. Quite a negative trade, especially with the crossbow in the game, but it can be used on big maps or by roamers who like to go really far behind.
- Direct Hit : Kinda the same as the Black Box, trading splash for raw damage isn't great, but it can be quite efficient in the right hands.
- Battalion's Backup and Concheror : Okay for pushing last when the ubers are equal, IMO the concheror is a bit better considering that a speed boost is more useful than a defensive buff in a uber fight and charges quicker, but the backup provides more survivability so you don't have to flash as much.
- Market Gardener : Not too sure about this one, on one hand it's a nice alternative to the classic bombs and it's fun to watch, but on the other I don't want to see some players doing the smallest jump possible or bhopping to deliver 195 dmg, that would be dumb. Maybe a nice fix would be to have some air time requirement before you can crit.
- Loose Cannon : Apparently a lot of players dislike this weapon ? I think it's fine as it is.
- Quickiebomb Launcher : Pretty good for clearing stickies off last and long range kritz, worse than stock at everything else. So, situationally good.
- Ambassador and L'Etranger : Ambassador is only good if you're good with it, but it can be a nice alternative to the pure damage of the stock. Same goes for L'Etranger, who trades more cloak for less damage.
I also think that the crossbow is too strong right now, which is a shame considering that it is very fun to use. Maybe decreasing the heals so that they are the same as it's damage would do the trick, also arrow-building needs to go.
[quote=JarateKing]good counterpoint[/quote]
That is very true, I had not seen things like this but what you're saying totally makes sense.
That's a shame because I love gimmicks (typical euro)
That said, I still think that the whitelist suggested in page one (http://whitelist.tf/7142) could use a few more items, so here are my suggestions : [list]
[*] Winger : Already allowed, nothing wrong with it.
[*] Black Box : Allows for a more sustainable roamer but with one less rocket. Quite a negative trade, especially with the crossbow in the game, but it can be used on big maps or by roamers who like to go really far behind.
[*] Direct Hit : Kinda the same as the Black Box, trading splash for raw damage isn't great, but it can be quite efficient in the right hands.
[*] Battalion's Backup and Concheror : Okay for pushing last when the ubers are equal, IMO the concheror is a bit better considering that a speed boost is more useful than a defensive buff in a uber fight and charges quicker, but the backup provides more survivability so you don't have to flash as much.
[*] Market Gardener : Not too sure about this one, on one hand it's a nice alternative to the classic bombs and it's fun to watch, but on the other I don't want to see some players doing the smallest jump possible or bhopping to deliver 195 dmg, that would be dumb. Maybe a nice fix would be to have some air time requirement before you can crit.
[*] Loose Cannon : Apparently a lot of players dislike this weapon ? I think it's fine as it is.
[*] Quickiebomb Launcher : Pretty good for clearing stickies off last and long range kritz, worse than stock at everything else. So, situationally good.
[*]Ambassador and L'Etranger : Ambassador is only good if you're good with it, but it can be a nice alternative to the pure damage of the stock. Same goes for L'Etranger, who trades more cloak for less damage.
[/list]
I also think that the crossbow is too strong right now, which is a shame considering that it is very fun to use. Maybe decreasing the heals so that they are the same as it's damage would do the trick, also arrow-building needs to go.
That is very true, I had not seen things like this but what you're saying totally makes sense.
That's a shame because I love gimmicks (typical euro)
That said, I still think that the whitelist suggested in page one (http://whitelist.tf/7142) could use a few more items, so here are my suggestions : [list]
[*] Winger : Already allowed, nothing wrong with it.
[*] Black Box : Allows for a more sustainable roamer but with one less rocket. Quite a negative trade, especially with the crossbow in the game, but it can be used on big maps or by roamers who like to go really far behind.
[*] Direct Hit : Kinda the same as the Black Box, trading splash for raw damage isn't great, but it can be quite efficient in the right hands.
[*] Battalion's Backup and Concheror : Okay for pushing last when the ubers are equal, IMO the concheror is a bit better considering that a speed boost is more useful than a defensive buff in a uber fight and charges quicker, but the backup provides more survivability so you don't have to flash as much.
[*] Market Gardener : Not too sure about this one, on one hand it's a nice alternative to the classic bombs and it's fun to watch, but on the other I don't want to see some players doing the smallest jump possible or bhopping to deliver 195 dmg, that would be dumb. Maybe a nice fix would be to have some air time requirement before you can crit.
[*] Loose Cannon : Apparently a lot of players dislike this weapon ? I think it's fine as it is.
[*] Quickiebomb Launcher : Pretty good for clearing stickies off last and long range kritz, worse than stock at everything else. So, situationally good.
[*]Ambassador and L'Etranger : Ambassador is only good if you're good with it, but it can be a nice alternative to the pure damage of the stock. Same goes for L'Etranger, who trades more cloak for less damage.
[/list]
I also think that the crossbow is too strong right now, which is a shame considering that it is very fun to use. Maybe decreasing the heals so that they are the same as it's damage would do the trick, also arrow-building needs to go.
thesqrtminus1ITT: people who don't play medic talk about the best ways to make medic even less fun to play than it already is
i played medic for 2 seasons so hush child
[quote=thesqrtminus1]ITT: people who don't play medic talk about the best ways to make medic even less fun to play than it already is[/quote]
i played medic for 2 seasons so hush child
i played medic for 2 seasons so hush child
gunboats, kritz, ubersaw, crossbow allowed, ban everything else.
gunboats, kritz, ubersaw, crossbow allowed, ban everything else.
Ringo__Starrthesqrtminus1ITT: people who don't play medic talk about the best ways to make medic even less fun to play than it already is
i played medic for 2 seasons so hush child
epic attack on my character and age dude
[quote=Ringo__Starr][quote=thesqrtminus1]ITT: people who don't play medic talk about the best ways to make medic even less fun to play than it already is[/quote]
i played medic for 2 seasons so hush child[/quote]
epic attack on my character and age dude
i played medic for 2 seasons so hush child[/quote]
epic attack on my character and age dude
I'm just quoting from what I've said during the unlocks survey thread
NurseyI am someone who wishes all unlocks can be a thing and I wish all classes were competitively viable. In reality, the game cannot be played like this competitively. Cow Mangler & Jarate (outside of being straight upgrades & annoying) are too random for competitive. Unlocks like the gunslinger did not make the engineer more full time viable. The most use I've seen out of it is last second last holds & rando dicking around on evl lol. These unlocks are obviously sacrificing other peoples joy in the game for almost zero compensation. People aren't ready to play competitive TF2 because of the unlocks and Valve doesn't seem to care that we did this (even though they've been terrible with communicating with us in the first place).
Competitive is at a low point, obviously. People purely play this game for enjoyment, no one has been expecting big things for a while. I think the effort is appreciated but we've been playing our 'own game' for a long time now, and people are obviously frustrated with the new approach that some higher-up players have been trying to take. It's so much better to let a small community like ours run the game with how they like (which is with very strict unlocks) and let them enjoy it THAN act like we're a bigger game and can make such poor unfun decisions for a small amount of people to be forced with.
Also the Crossbow is blatantly broken and I'm happy for it to be banned but losing the crossbow at this point is the equivalent of the stickybomb nerf for medic mains (even though needles are fun as hell).
I'm just quoting from what I've said during the unlocks survey thread
[quote=Nursey]I am someone who wishes all unlocks can be a thing and I wish all classes were competitively viable. In reality, the game cannot be played like this competitively. Cow Mangler & Jarate (outside of being straight upgrades & annoying) are too random for competitive. Unlocks like the gunslinger did not make the engineer more full time viable. The most use I've seen out of it is last second last holds & rando dicking around on evl lol. These unlocks are obviously sacrificing other peoples joy in the game for almost zero compensation. People aren't ready to play competitive TF2 because of the unlocks and Valve doesn't seem to care that we did this (even though they've been terrible with communicating with us in the first place).
Competitive is at a low point, obviously. People purely play this game for enjoyment, no one has been expecting big things for a while. I think the effort is appreciated but we've been playing our 'own game' for a long time now, and people are obviously frustrated with the new approach that some higher-up players have been trying to take. It's so much better to let a small community like ours run the game with how they like (which is with very strict unlocks) and let them enjoy it THAN act like we're a bigger game and can make such poor unfun decisions for a small amount of people to be forced with.[/quote]
Also the Crossbow is blatantly broken and I'm happy for it to be banned but losing the crossbow at this point is the equivalent of the stickybomb nerf for medic mains (even though needles are fun as hell).
[quote=Nursey]I am someone who wishes all unlocks can be a thing and I wish all classes were competitively viable. In reality, the game cannot be played like this competitively. Cow Mangler & Jarate (outside of being straight upgrades & annoying) are too random for competitive. Unlocks like the gunslinger did not make the engineer more full time viable. The most use I've seen out of it is last second last holds & rando dicking around on evl lol. These unlocks are obviously sacrificing other peoples joy in the game for almost zero compensation. People aren't ready to play competitive TF2 because of the unlocks and Valve doesn't seem to care that we did this (even though they've been terrible with communicating with us in the first place).
Competitive is at a low point, obviously. People purely play this game for enjoyment, no one has been expecting big things for a while. I think the effort is appreciated but we've been playing our 'own game' for a long time now, and people are obviously frustrated with the new approach that some higher-up players have been trying to take. It's so much better to let a small community like ours run the game with how they like (which is with very strict unlocks) and let them enjoy it THAN act like we're a bigger game and can make such poor unfun decisions for a small amount of people to be forced with.[/quote]
Also the Crossbow is blatantly broken and I'm happy for it to be banned but losing the crossbow at this point is the equivalent of the stickybomb nerf for medic mains (even though needles are fun as hell).
Crossbow needs to be adjusted, but to ban it outright would decrease a lot of the mechanical skill a medic is offered. Needles are fun, but when it comes down to it, hitting an incredible arrow is more fun than killing a scout that walks through a choke point. Just my opinion of course and I'm not a med main, but to ban a weapon outright that encourages a more aggressive playstyle and better mechanical skill doesn't make sense from my perspective.
Crossbow needs to be adjusted, but to ban it outright would decrease a lot of the mechanical skill a medic is offered. Needles are fun, but when it comes down to it, hitting an incredible arrow is more fun than killing a scout that walks through a choke point. Just my opinion of course and I'm not a med main, but to ban a weapon outright that encourages a more aggressive playstyle and better mechanical skill doesn't make sense from my perspective.
yeah. it was nice to do the global whitelist thing just to normalize the ruleset and tidy up esea's bans, but aside from that theres no inherant value in something being unbanned. the playercounts didnt go up, hell even the sentiment towards 6s on reddit and the like is still shit. if valves ever gonna support competitive then people constantly shitting on how unfun the game is will hurt things more than a few more weapon bans.
yeah. it was nice to do the global whitelist thing just to normalize the ruleset and tidy up esea's bans, but aside from that theres no inherant value in something being unbanned. the playercounts didnt go up, hell even the sentiment towards 6s on reddit and the like is still shit. if valves ever gonna support competitive then people constantly shitting on how unfun the game is will hurt things more than a few more weapon bans.
As another med main: Arrows are fucking stupid and need to leave.
As another med main: Arrows are fucking stupid and need to leave.
people thinking arrows are more fun than melting scouts with perfectly positioned needles smh
people thinking arrows are more fun than melting scouts with perfectly positioned needles smh
Kavsnip
what do you expect from this community it's full of people who think that their way is the best way and whenever someone says "maybe your way isn't the best way" they either ignore them or shit on them
[quote=Kav]snip[/quote]
what do you expect from this community it's full of people who think that their way is the best way and whenever someone says "maybe your way isn't the best way" they either ignore them or shit on them
what do you expect from this community it's full of people who think that their way is the best way and whenever someone says "maybe your way isn't the best way" they either ignore them or shit on them
springrolls^I think you mean don't ban the jarate (unless I'm gravely mistaken)
just as a curious question was there ever a serious consensus reached on whether or not the banners help to break stalemates or do they just end up promoting them?
whoops, i just now saw that
yeah, i can see how that was misinterpreted
[quote=springrolls]^I think you mean don't ban the jarate (unless I'm gravely mistaken)
just as a curious question was there ever a serious consensus reached on whether or not the banners help to break stalemates or do they just end up promoting them?[/quote]
whoops, i just now saw that
yeah, i can see how that was misinterpreted
just as a curious question was there ever a serious consensus reached on whether or not the banners help to break stalemates or do they just end up promoting them?[/quote]
whoops, i just now saw that
yeah, i can see how that was misinterpreted
You know what I'd really like to see? The uber gained on allied crossbow hit put on the overdose, but instead of on hit, you gain ubercharge on kill. That would surely shake up the meta of medic primaries. I remember watching compilation clips of old medics way back who were just amazing with needles and could basically fight their way out of a 1v1. It just seemed surreal to me at the time how someone could be so good with needles.
Also the whole thing of crossbow bolts doing 75 healing minimum when you're basically breathing down a teammates neck is actually ridiculous. I think 75 should be the max because for a lot of classes a long range arrow is basically the same thing as getting a full health pack. I'm not going to lie, hitting those cross map bolts to save a teammate is super satisfying. Lots of medic mains would say the same thing, but it's simply something that makes the current crossbow too good.
thesqrtminus1Kavsnip
what do you expect from this community it's full of people who think that their way is the best way and whenever someone says "maybe your way isn't the best way" they either ignore them or shit on them
you got a better suggestion that will net significant gains for the community in the short term and long term? If so I'm pretty sure everyone would love to hear it.
The whole whitelist thing was really our best attempt at getting more people playing but as kav had pointed out there hasn't been much that's come from it that's good. Many people were pushed to their breaking point with some unlocks (i.e. when the atomizer and base jumper were unbanned for some reason) and there were also many public posts across many divisions that x number of individuals would not play unless some items were banned (aka that very short time where people decided to unban the quick fix).
There's not much that can be done whitelist wise, so the next real thing was map pools, which is more or less at a standstill until the invite grand finals concludes. There are some really good maps that have the potential to replace less popular maps (granary and metalworks) so not a lot can be done there until teams get playing on it in pugs and other competitive environments. It's a slow work in progress but there's at least something there.
You know what I'd really like to see? The uber gained on allied crossbow hit put on the overdose, but instead of on hit, you gain ubercharge on kill. That would surely shake up the meta of medic primaries. I remember watching compilation clips of old medics way back who were just amazing with needles and could basically fight their way out of a 1v1. It just seemed surreal to me at the time how someone could be so good with needles.
Also the whole thing of crossbow bolts doing 75 healing minimum when you're basically breathing down a teammates neck is actually ridiculous. I think 75 should be the max because for a lot of classes a long range arrow is basically the same thing as getting a full health pack. I'm not going to lie, hitting those cross map bolts to save a teammate is super satisfying. Lots of medic mains would say the same thing, but it's simply something that makes the current crossbow too good.
[quote=thesqrtminus1][quote=Kav]snip[/quote]
what do you expect from this community it's full of people who think that their way is the best way and whenever someone says "maybe your way isn't the best way" they either ignore them or shit on them[/quote]
you got a better suggestion that will net significant gains for the community in the short term and long term? If so I'm pretty sure everyone would love to hear it.
The whole whitelist thing was really our best attempt at getting more people playing but as kav had pointed out there hasn't been much that's come from it that's good. Many people were pushed to their breaking point with some unlocks (i.e. when the atomizer and base jumper were unbanned for some reason) and there were also many public posts across many divisions that x number of individuals would not play unless some items were banned (aka that very short time where people decided to unban the quick fix).
There's not much that can be done whitelist wise, so the next real thing was map pools, which is more or less at a standstill until the invite grand finals concludes. There are some really good maps that have the potential to replace less popular maps (granary and metalworks) so not a lot can be done there until teams get playing on it in pugs and other competitive environments. It's a slow work in progress but there's at least something there.
Also the whole thing of crossbow bolts doing 75 healing minimum when you're basically breathing down a teammates neck is actually ridiculous. I think 75 should be the max because for a lot of classes a long range arrow is basically the same thing as getting a full health pack. I'm not going to lie, hitting those cross map bolts to save a teammate is super satisfying. Lots of medic mains would say the same thing, but it's simply something that makes the current crossbow too good.
[quote=thesqrtminus1][quote=Kav]snip[/quote]
what do you expect from this community it's full of people who think that their way is the best way and whenever someone says "maybe your way isn't the best way" they either ignore them or shit on them[/quote]
you got a better suggestion that will net significant gains for the community in the short term and long term? If so I'm pretty sure everyone would love to hear it.
The whole whitelist thing was really our best attempt at getting more people playing but as kav had pointed out there hasn't been much that's come from it that's good. Many people were pushed to their breaking point with some unlocks (i.e. when the atomizer and base jumper were unbanned for some reason) and there were also many public posts across many divisions that x number of individuals would not play unless some items were banned (aka that very short time where people decided to unban the quick fix).
There's not much that can be done whitelist wise, so the next real thing was map pools, which is more or less at a standstill until the invite grand finals concludes. There are some really good maps that have the potential to replace less popular maps (granary and metalworks) so not a lot can be done there until teams get playing on it in pugs and other competitive environments. It's a slow work in progress but there's at least something there.
I mean needles man... https://youtu.be/KnlscKfch54?t=23
I mean needles man... https://youtu.be/KnlscKfch54?t=23
thesqrtminus1ITT: people who don't play medic talk about the best ways to make medic even less fun to play than it already is
you have 0 seasons playing medic in any league
don't mean to insult you or whatever but people who have been playing medic on high level teams for years are gonna know a little better than you what is and isn't good for game balance
[quote=thesqrtminus1]ITT: people who don't play medic talk about the best ways to make medic even less fun to play than it already is[/quote]
you have 0 seasons playing medic in any league
don't mean to insult you or whatever but people who have been playing medic on high level teams for years are gonna know a little better than you what is and isn't good for game balance
you have 0 seasons playing medic in any league
don't mean to insult you or whatever but people who have been playing medic on high level teams for years are gonna know a little better than you what is and isn't good for game balance
thesqrtminus1Kavsnip
what do you expect from this community it's full of people who think that their way is the best way and whenever someone says "maybe your way isn't the best way" they either ignore them or shit on them
until valve actually starts putting money into this and taking over, then the only factor that really matters for competitive rules is what people think would make the game more fun. and the people whove poured years into comp tf2 kinda earn themselves a bit more influence.
like its not hail the invite illuminati or whatever but there needs to be some kind of purpose for going against what current players want. cant expect people to bend over to appease people who probably wouldnt even play comp for more than a season anyway.
[quote=thesqrtminus1][quote=Kav]snip[/quote]
what do you expect from this community it's full of people who think that their way is the best way and whenever someone says "maybe your way isn't the best way" they either ignore them or shit on them[/quote]
until valve actually starts putting money into this and taking over, then the only factor that really matters for competitive rules is what people think would make the game more fun. and the people whove poured years into comp tf2 kinda earn themselves a bit more influence.
like its not hail the invite illuminati or whatever but there needs to be some kind of purpose for going against what current players want. cant expect people to bend over to appease people who probably wouldnt even play comp for more than a season anyway.
what do you expect from this community it's full of people who think that their way is the best way and whenever someone says "maybe your way isn't the best way" they either ignore them or shit on them[/quote]
until valve actually starts putting money into this and taking over, then the only factor that really matters for competitive rules is what people think would make the game more fun. and the people whove poured years into comp tf2 kinda earn themselves a bit more influence.
like its not hail the invite illuminati or whatever but there needs to be some kind of purpose for going against what current players want. cant expect people to bend over to appease people who probably wouldnt even play comp for more than a season anyway.
KonceptYou know what I'd really like to see? The uber gained on allied crossbow hit put on the overdose, but instead of on hit, you gain ubercharge on kill. That would surely shake up the meta of medic primaries. I remember watching compilation clips of old medics way back who were just amazing with needles and could basically fight their way out of a 1v1. It just seemed surreal to me at the time how someone could be so good with needles.
Also the whole thing of crossbow bolts doing 75 healing minimum when you're basically breathing down a teammates neck is actually ridiculous. I think 75 should be the max because for a lot of classes a long range arrow is basically the same thing as getting a full health pack. I'm not going to lie, hitting those cross map bolts to save a teammate is super satisfying. Lots of medic mains would say the same thing, but it's simply something that makes the current crossbow too good.
thesqrtminus1Kavsnip
what do you expect from this community it's full of people who think that their way is the best way and whenever someone says "maybe your way isn't the best way" they either ignore them or shit on them
you got a better suggestion that will net significant gains for the community in the short term and long term? If so I'm pretty sure everyone would love to hear it.
the problem with removing the crossbow is that, at least to me, it would make medic just so not fun to play. As someone who currently plays engie in hl (lolhl) and is looking to play medic in actual competitive, i just would not find medic fun if the xbow was removed because it would make medic just a "hold down m1 forever" class. i don't know if anyone shares this feeling, but I certainly don't think playing with needles as a low open medic would be in anyway fun. feel free to downfrag me for this, i don't care. I just feel like i should clarify. Yes, i see the problem that the xbow has, but taking it away would just be unfun.
[quote=Koncept]You know what I'd really like to see? The uber gained on allied crossbow hit put on the overdose, but instead of on hit, you gain ubercharge on kill. That would surely shake up the meta of medic primaries. I remember watching compilation clips of old medics way back who were just amazing with needles and could basically fight their way out of a 1v1. It just seemed surreal to me at the time how someone could be so good with needles.
Also the whole thing of crossbow bolts doing 75 healing minimum when you're basically breathing down a teammates neck is actually ridiculous. I think 75 should be the max because for a lot of classes a long range arrow is basically the same thing as getting a full health pack. I'm not going to lie, hitting those cross map bolts to save a teammate is super satisfying. Lots of medic mains would say the same thing, but it's simply something that makes the current crossbow too good.
[quote=thesqrtminus1][quote=Kav]snip[/quote]
what do you expect from this community it's full of people who think that their way is the best way and whenever someone says "maybe your way isn't the best way" they either ignore them or shit on them[/quote]
you got a better suggestion that will net significant gains for the community in the short term and long term? If so I'm pretty sure everyone would love to hear it.[/quote]
the problem with removing the crossbow is that, at least to me, it would make medic just so not fun to play. As someone who currently plays engie in hl (lolhl) and is looking to play medic in actual competitive, i just would not find medic fun if the xbow was removed because it would make medic just a "hold down m1 forever" class. i don't know if anyone shares this feeling, but I certainly don't think playing with needles as a low open medic would be in anyway fun. feel free to downfrag me for this, i don't care. I just feel like i should clarify. Yes, i see the problem that the xbow has, but taking it away would just be unfun.
Also the whole thing of crossbow bolts doing 75 healing minimum when you're basically breathing down a teammates neck is actually ridiculous. I think 75 should be the max because for a lot of classes a long range arrow is basically the same thing as getting a full health pack. I'm not going to lie, hitting those cross map bolts to save a teammate is super satisfying. Lots of medic mains would say the same thing, but it's simply something that makes the current crossbow too good.
[quote=thesqrtminus1][quote=Kav]snip[/quote]
what do you expect from this community it's full of people who think that their way is the best way and whenever someone says "maybe your way isn't the best way" they either ignore them or shit on them[/quote]
you got a better suggestion that will net significant gains for the community in the short term and long term? If so I'm pretty sure everyone would love to hear it.[/quote]
the problem with removing the crossbow is that, at least to me, it would make medic just so not fun to play. As someone who currently plays engie in hl (lolhl) and is looking to play medic in actual competitive, i just would not find medic fun if the xbow was removed because it would make medic just a "hold down m1 forever" class. i don't know if anyone shares this feeling, but I certainly don't think playing with needles as a low open medic would be in anyway fun. feel free to downfrag me for this, i don't care. I just feel like i should clarify. Yes, i see the problem that the xbow has, but taking it away would just be unfun.
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