I feel like this is long overdue
So currently badlands has two major issues that keep it from being on par with the best maps in the pool. It's currently almost impossible to push out of last against a team that knows what they're doing (Mixup was almost unbeatable on badlands in huge part because of this) and there's like no ammo for some reason. The ammo is an easy fix, just switch the ammo boxes in each house from small the medium, this will help the ammo situation in basically the entire map.
The pushing out of last thing is a little more complicated. Currently, I think the biggest issue is the spawn time for the attackers, it takes about 10 seconds to spawn if you die while pushing last, which basically means unless you wipe you're going to be fighting for spire as well. This is not the case on any other map. On any other map, if you drop 3+, you lose the 2nd point. On top of all this, the spawns for the defenders are 20(!!!) seconds, which means if you fuck up while trying to push out, you lose the round. There are the issues of the amount of hiding spots in lobby, back cappers and scouts ability to get onto the spire but I think that all mostly goes away if you fix the spawn time by just increasing the spawn time from 10 to 20 seconds.
Obviously it would be nice if valve could just fix this stuff but I don't trust valve to do anything in a timely fashion and I don't have the hammer skills to make this stuff happen and I'm sure some other people will have some things to say about the map so here's the thread to discuss.
I feel like this is long overdue
So currently badlands has two major issues that keep it from being on par with the best maps in the pool. It's currently almost impossible to push out of last against a team that knows what they're doing (Mixup was almost unbeatable on badlands in huge part because of this) and there's like no ammo for some reason. The ammo is an easy fix, just switch the ammo boxes in each house from small the medium, this will help the ammo situation in basically the entire map.
The pushing out of last thing is a little more complicated. Currently, I think the biggest issue is the spawn time for the attackers, it takes about 10 seconds to spawn if you die while pushing last, which basically means unless you wipe you're going to be fighting for spire as well. This is not the case on any other map. On any other map, if you drop 3+, you lose the 2nd point. On top of all this, the spawns for the defenders are 20(!!!) seconds, which means if you fuck up while trying to push out, you lose the round. There are the issues of the amount of hiding spots in lobby, back cappers and scouts ability to get onto the spire but I think that all mostly goes away if you fix the spawn time by just increasing the spawn time from 10 to 20 seconds.
Obviously it would be nice if valve could just fix this stuff but I don't trust valve to do anything in a timely fashion and I don't have the hammer skills to make this stuff happen and I'm sure some other people will have some things to say about the map so here's the thread to discuss.
cp_badlands_pro is pretty good
cp_badlands_pro is pretty good
there will be NO ammo for you >:
there will be NO ammo for you >:
revert last point cap time change
revert last point cap time change
Mankycp_badlands_pro is pretty good
No lol, have you played on it? You can literally go ontop of anything like house and its super awkward to play mid or holding 2nd if they are on mid.
[quote=Manky]cp_badlands_pro is pretty good[/quote]
No lol, have you played on it? You can literally go ontop of anything like house and its super awkward to play mid or holding 2nd if they are on mid.
Re4lityMankycp_badlands_pro is pretty good
No lol, have you played on it? You can literally go ontop of anything like house and its super awkward to play mid or holding 2nd if they are on mid.
I agree that it s a cool map and it opens quite alot of new possibilities, especially with the opening on left balcony
[quote=Re4lity][quote=Manky]cp_badlands_pro is pretty good[/quote]
No lol, have you played on it? You can literally go ontop of anything like house and its super awkward to play mid or holding 2nd if they are on mid.[/quote]
I agree that it s a cool map and it opens quite alot of new possibilities, especially with the opening on left balcony
For some reason every effort so far at a badlands_pro has resulted in the mapper taking some form of divisive creative license. Simply revert the last cap-speed, make the small ammo packs on haunter and mid bigger and you're pretty much there.
A spawn time change of 10 to 20 seconds is too much in my opinion, it could completely disincentivize taking any risk when in possession of the enemy spire because you are so sure to lose it. I think the stalemating on last will improve significantly with a better cap speed as pushes will actually succeed again, but if deemed necessary I'm pretty sure a spawn timer change of 4-6 seconds would be sufficient.
For some reason every effort so far at a badlands_pro has resulted in the mapper taking some form of divisive creative license. Simply revert the last cap-speed, make the small ammo packs on haunter and mid bigger and you're pretty much there.
A spawn time change of 10 to 20 seconds is too much in my opinion, it could completely disincentivize taking any risk when in possession of the enemy spire because you are so sure to lose it. I think the stalemating on last will improve significantly with a better cap speed as pushes will actually succeed again, but if deemed necessary I'm pretty sure a spawn timer change of 4-6 seconds would be sufficient.
Pushing out of last is definitely the hardest/worst part of the map. The adjusted cap speed helps ease concerns about backcaps which promotes pushing out, so that should probably not be changed. Adjusting the 2nd forward spawn timer is probably the best thing to start with as its very time consuming to clear everything on battlements/lobby and spawns are usually up before you've even stepped outside even on a full wipe.
Beyond that, upgrading the size of at least the ammo pack on patio of yard would be a huge help. And finally clean up the ceilings. Really frustrating to have your movement so restricted by the lamps in house and battlements, as well as the vents on last.
And don't arbitrarily change the map theme please.
Pushing out of last is definitely the hardest/worst part of the map. The adjusted cap speed helps ease concerns about backcaps which promotes pushing out, so that should probably not be changed. Adjusting the 2nd forward spawn timer is probably the best thing to start with as its very time consuming to clear everything on battlements/lobby and spawns are usually up before you've even stepped outside even on a full wipe.
Beyond that, upgrading the size of at least the ammo pack on patio of yard would be a huge help. And finally clean up the ceilings. Really frustrating to have your movement so restricted by the lamps in house and battlements, as well as the vents on last.
And don't arbitrarily change the map theme please.
botmodethe spawns for the defenders are 20(!!!) seconds
Okay, I don't think the spawn timers are that long..
[quote=botmode]the spawns for the defenders are 20(!!!) seconds[/quote]
Okay, I don't think the spawn timers are [i][url=https://gyazo.com/d017797fdfa55a5fcfade809e6b95c5f]that[/url] [/i]long..
I've seen 23 seconds on badlands last so
I agree that for some reason whenever people have changed badlands they've decided to change way more than is needed
I think the captime is fine, I've personally never felt like badlands last was unpushable and I've never felt it's specifcally harder to push badlands than any other last.
I've seen 23 seconds on badlands last so
I agree that for some reason whenever people have changed badlands they've decided to change way more than is needed
I think the captime is fine, I've personally never felt like badlands last was unpushable and I've never felt it's specifcally harder to push badlands than any other last.
The thing I complain about most whenever my team scrim badlands is that there's like one medium ammo box. so +1 on that idea.
Clearing up indoor places to allow for smoother movement would also be neat.
all in all i like some of the suggestions so far.
The thing I complain about most whenever my team scrim badlands is that there's like one medium ammo box. so +1 on that idea.
Clearing up indoor places to allow for smoother movement would also be neat.
all in all i like some of the suggestions so far.
I think another issue with attempts to "fix" badlands is that they remove all of the hiding spots, without removing the inherent problems with ammo that actually ruin the map. Badlanda backcaps are inevitable just with the nature of the map, and it's part of the personality of the map. I may be in the minority, but I don't want all the maps to feel the same, and I want badlands to stay that way. HOWEVER, increasing attacking spawn time when they have spire would not only just make the map better to play, but it would decrease backcap chance and make it much more impressive of a play, as a scout can't just instadie on a last push, spawn, and just run in through dropdown or lower left and cap while the spire fight. If the spawn waves for attackers were to change from 20-15 seconds, when last pushes fail, it's eaither a very impressive backcap, or a successful cap of spire for the defenders if they majorly screw up. Also, the fact that the last vents haven't been removed is mind-boggling.
Another question, what would we name a better badlands? cp_badlands_pro and cp_badlands_fixed are taken, so what then? cp_notasbadlands?
I think another issue with attempts to "fix" badlands is that they remove all of the hiding spots, without removing the inherent problems with ammo that actually ruin the map. Badlanda backcaps are inevitable just with the nature of the map, and it's part of the personality of the map. I may be in the minority, but I don't want all the maps to feel the same, and I want badlands to stay that way. HOWEVER, increasing attacking spawn time when they have spire would not only just make the map better to play, but it would decrease backcap chance and make it much more impressive of a play, as a scout can't just instadie on a last push, spawn, and just run in through dropdown or lower left and cap while the spire fight. If the spawn waves for attackers were to change from 20-15 seconds, when last pushes fail, it's eaither a very impressive backcap, or a successful cap of spire for the defenders if they majorly screw up. Also, the fact that the last vents haven't been removed is mind-boggling.
Another question, what would we name a better badlands? cp_badlands_pro and cp_badlands_fixed are taken, so what then? cp_notasbadlands?
Permzillarevert last point cap time change
kaidusSimply revert the last cap-speed, make the small ammo packs on haunter and mid bigger and you're pretty much there.
[quote=Permzilla]revert last point cap time change[/quote]
[quote=kaidus]Simply revert the last cap-speed, make the small ammo packs on haunter and mid bigger and you're pretty much there.[/quote]
this probably won't help anything but I wouldn't mind the outside parts of badlands to be a little brighter, just a personal thing I guess don't take this super seriously.
this probably won't help anything but I wouldn't mind the outside parts of badlands to be a little brighter, just a personal thing I guess don't take this super seriously.
how about removing the upper ring/lamp above the last point, where demos often hide? it basically takes half an uber or a massive player ad (so you can sac for his sticks) to deal with him there. removing it might make pushes in more successful, while still leaving the lower rim for a roamer to stay last during pushes out if they wish
how about removing the upper ring/lamp above the last point, where demos often hide? it basically takes half an uber or a massive player ad (so you can sac for his sticks) to deal with him there. removing it might make pushes in more successful, while still leaving the lower rim for a roamer to stay last during pushes out if they wish
gemmhow about removing the upper ring/lamp above the last point, where demos often hide? it basically takes half an uber or a massive player ad (so you can sac for his sticks) to deal with him there. removing it might make pushes in more successful, while still leaving the lower rim for a roamer to stay last during pushes out if they wish
you're probably right, but i've always thought it's neat when maps have quirks like that.
[quote=gemm]how about removing the upper ring/lamp above the last point, where demos often hide? it basically takes half an uber or a massive player ad (so you can sac for his sticks) to deal with him there. removing it might make pushes in more successful, while still leaving the lower rim for a roamer to stay last during pushes out if they wish[/quote]
you're probably right, but i've always thought it's neat when maps have quirks like that.
I can make a fixed version if you guys could come up with an exact list of changes you want. There are always going to be unsatisfied players though. List all your complaints here and I'll try to fix stuff. It's not really hard at all - the hardest thing is agree on changes. Maybe we need a kind of a survey for that?
edit: someone already took care of this later in the thread
I can make a fixed version if you guys could come up with an exact list of changes you want. There are always going to be unsatisfied players though. List all your complaints here and I'll try to fix stuff. It's not really hard at all - the hardest thing is agree on changes. Maybe we need a kind of a survey for that?
edit: someone already took care of this later in the thread
TmbrAnother question, what would we name a better badlands? cp_badlands_pro and cp_badlands_fixed are taken, so what then? cp_notasbadlands?
cp_goodlands_profix
[quote=Tmbr]
Another question, what would we name a better badlands? cp_badlands_pro and cp_badlands_fixed are taken, so what then? cp_notasbadlands?[/quote]
cp_goodlands_profix
These changes would take literally 5 seconds to make in hammer, if people would be for it I can just take care of it.
(but then you should also support custom maps too pls :P)
These changes would take literally 5 seconds to make in hammer, if people would be for it I can just take care of it.
(but then you should also support custom maps too pls :P)
Cp_betterlands
Last is so aids to push without fast captime and pushing 2nd->mid you'll be on low ground most of the time
Cp_betterlands
Last is so aids to push without fast captime and pushing 2nd->mid you'll be on low ground most of the time
How about making it possible to push out of last instead of making it impossible to hold it? (talking about suggestion to revert cap time)
How about making it possible to push out of last instead of making it impossible to hold it? (talking about suggestion to revert cap time)
gemmhow about removing the upper ring/lamp above the last point, where demos often hide? it basically takes half an uber or a massive player ad (so you can sac for his sticks) to deal with him there. removing it might make pushes in more successful, while still leaving the lower rim for a roamer to stay last during pushes out if they wish
This is precisely the kind of thing that has ruined previous attempts at fixing badlands. Badlands has been the best map TF2 has ever seen and probably ever will see, and that is precisely because of quirks like this. When taken in isolation, they can divide opinion, but collectively they are what make the map special and if you start fucking with them, then your pro version causes too much disagreement and immediately goes out of the window, and we can never fix the few things that actually need fixing.
Also for the record if you go into a push knowing a demo is above the point and fail, then you just failed. This should only ever work as a surprise tactic against coordinated teams.
[quote=gemm]how about removing the upper ring/lamp above the last point, where demos often hide? it basically takes half an uber or a massive player ad (so you can sac for his sticks) to deal with him there. removing it might make pushes in more successful, while still leaving the lower rim for a roamer to stay last during pushes out if they wish[/quote]
This is precisely the kind of thing that has ruined previous attempts at fixing badlands. Badlands has been the best map TF2 has ever seen and probably ever will see, and that is precisely because of quirks like this. When taken in isolation, they can divide opinion, but collectively they are what make the map special and if you start fucking with them, then your pro version causes too much disagreement and immediately goes out of the window, and we can never fix the few things that actually need fixing.
Also for the record if you go into a push knowing a demo is above the point and fail, then you just failed. This should only ever work as a surprise tactic against coordinated teams.
I can't remember what map version of "pro" badlands I saw it in, but someone had edited the left side of batts (from the defenders perspective) by removing the left wall of the corridor that leads to spire.
I.e. the moment you walk from upper lobby to left batts, you could fall down to trash without having to walk towards the opening in the direction of spire.
http://files.gamebanana.com/img/ss/maps/51b1fd5c2222f.jpg
I thought that was a neat change and I can't see it being a bad change in any way. It just means that left area of batts would no longer be a guaranteed corridor of death that the enemy team can infinitely spam from spire. I really hope that gets added in whatever new version someone is going to edit for us.
+1 to more ammo, and +1 to increased 2nd forward spawn timer as well
I can't remember what map version of "pro" badlands I saw it in, but someone had edited the left side of batts (from the defenders perspective) by removing the left wall of the corridor that leads to spire.
I.e. the moment you walk from upper lobby to left batts, you could fall down to trash without having to walk towards the opening in the direction of spire.
[img]http://files.gamebanana.com/img/ss/maps/51b1fd5c2222f.jpg[/img]
I thought that was a neat change and I can't see it being a bad change in any way. It just means that left area of batts would no longer be a guaranteed corridor of death that the enemy team can infinitely spam from spire. I really hope that gets added in whatever new version someone is going to edit for us.
+1 to more ammo, and +1 to increased 2nd forward spawn timer as well
BumFreezedestroy splash bugs
badlands more like splashdoesntworkherelands
[quote=BumFreeze]destroy splash bugs[/quote]
badlands more like splashdoesntworkherelands
More Ammo and faster spire caps would be enough tbh
More Ammo and faster spire caps would be enough tbh
Remove the 'lip' at the top of the badlands choke ramp. If you try to surf up the choke ramp, you get caught at the top and just stop. Could be cool if you want to sac/rollout through choke: http://imgur.com/V4y0kGx
Also maybe close the gaps between the train cars at mid so splashes don't fail.
Remove the 'lip' at the top of the badlands choke ramp. If you try to surf up the choke ramp, you get caught at the top and just stop. Could be cool if you want to sac/rollout through choke: http://imgur.com/V4y0kGx
Also maybe close the gaps between the train cars at mid so splashes don't fail.