You asked if something would be good, and when everyone said it would be a bad idea, you go and defend it.

If you feel strongly about something, start off saying that. Don't argue under the veneer of "just having a discussion." Say what you actually intend to say in the first comment rather than arguing once people say no.

alright lads heres the new gamemode gunboats soldier only, bhops enabled, grappling hooks on. Lets make it happen boys.

What are you talking about? I just want an in depth discussion. I have to play devil's advocate to get that, or people would just say "no" like the first post ITT and I'd learn nothing. Why is criticizing someone's argument problematic?

I don't work for Valve, it's not like I have some agenda for the game. I just want an interesting discussion on a discussion board. Sue me.

I'd love to see that video if you could dig it up. I'll be searching for it too. I'd also be interested to know how they implemented their bhops.

When you say "make it easier", what are you getting at? More lenient jump timing? Faster acceleration from airstrafing?

game breaking in a game where part of the balance is different classes having different movement speed

Given that various classes already have different max speeds while bhopping, this argument is worded poorly

More like buff scout.

if bhopping is easy and reliable enough, this would be a nice buff to the pyro, enabling him to move at incredulous speeds whilst flicking everywhere (you can still flail as pyro people, be woke), and by increasing his capacy to move, he is now enabled to chase down and slay scouts, therefore nerfing scout, so by default it would be very good yes

https://youtu.be/QkZLJeQ1Nhc?t=3m39s

buffing bhops doesnt necessarily mean removing a speedcap for bhops. you can have it like in csgo where it's pretty difficult (if not impossible, not sure) to do it 100% consistently and it gives you a slight speed boost. you could also have it where it's just a hold spacebar thing with a speedcap just above base movement speed, and that might mean new players learn to airstrafe quicker. the maps aren't designed for it though (unlike quake's) and it seems worse than just a flat speed buff to all classes

Those bhops are due to a mod, right? Description mentions TF2 Turbo

What aspects of TF2's map design strike you as problematic combined with improved bhops?

enough, why dont you try it

play a game of sixes with bhop from tftrue on ive done it and i promise it was stupid

if u wanted to nerf that level of bhop until it wasnt stupid you might as well not have it

edit: typo

Damn guys, I never would've guessed that if you come up with a retarded way to implement bhopping it wouldnt be good. I don't think the basic idea of bunnyhopping is bad, but I do believe that for it to add something to the game and not be broken there's gonna have to be some pretty heavy limitations. As others have said, the max speed should be dependent on each classes base movement speed so there aren't sanic heavies and shit. The question is what exactly the speed cap should be. tf2 is old af and people have expectations about how fast different classes can go, so I think that has to be kept in mind because it influences our perception of fun and fairness. This is why I think the best way to approach this is to implement bhopping so that if you were going to get hit by a meaty rocket, bunnyhopping would help you take less damage, but you wouldn't avoid the splash entirely. I'm a bit biased on the matter because I just love having shit to do with my hands while I walk around in games, but I sincerely believe that this way of going about it would add a little bit of extra movement skill to the game without making it too unfair for projectile classes that have to deal with ppl randomly going different speeds.

hell no. tf2's movement is already balanced around the current dynamic, and adding something as powerful and controllable as bhops would turn things into a clusterfuck and throw everything off balance

to their credit playing on a tftrue server with autohop isnt even close the same thing as buffing bhopping

okay but you haven't actually voiced any positives for bhopping as far as I can see so you're doing a shite job of playing devils advocate anyway

theres only one way to find out

create a modded tf2 league with a $4000 prize pool despite everyone telling you its a bad idea

Step one to making a design decision is to recognize a problem or something to improve. Solutions naturally come after. What's the actual problem solved by making bhops viable?

Worth mentioning that running controller + mouse bypasses this for the most part, as long as you can make due with few binds. Analog keyboards are a thing now too (aimpad > wooting) and though they take more practice, they bypass it without sacrificing anything at all. I really like analog keyboards, but game balance requiring no one having certain hardware should always be a no-no.

For a lot of maps, certain jumps require rocket/sticky jumps to make by a narrow margin. Some jumps also only allows scouts by a narrow margin. Some specifically exclude slower classes like heavy. All these were intentional design decisions, and it seems unfair (and not good for game balance) to either require finding compromises in every single map (which may have no good solution), or to say fuck it and break the original design.

Along with the more general idea that maps' sizes are largely designed with certain speeds assumed. Maps made for comp put care into how fast it takes for each class to get to mid, and to get from one point to another. Respawn timers are designed with how long it takes in mind. Simple map geometry assumes that outside of explosive jumping or certain unlocks (which come with their own tradeoffs, unlike bhopping) that people will have to spend x amount of time before they're in your face.

Even just from a map perspective, it's a lot to worry about and a lot of work to accommodate for, when there's no justification for them in the first place.

There are a couple spots in mainly HL maps that you can reach only by bhopping, but most of them are useless, I like to hop around for fun, but even if well timed it would give some cs go like boost idk it seems like an unnecessary topic to talk about.
An example of useless thing you can do is get above the point on last point on Process as for example engie and sniper using some bhopping, but as you can probably tell that's not much of use.
Note if not mentioned before TF2 does indeed have a very minor bhop speed that does give you ability to do certain cool but predominantly entirely useless jumps.

>create auto hotkey script
>play heavy
>get to mid before demo
>win

You can still bhop in tf2 it just has a speed cap, you can see it by bunnyhopping off a ledge or a steep ground, it gives you a lot of speed and for the next jump it reduces it immediately. But you can abuse that additional speed and reach some interesting spots, including that fence on ultiduo_baloo as medic. Also bhopping as pyro with the jack gives the illusion you are for real accelerating which is fun playing on pubs, it might be just me though.

I think the way bhop is implemented in tf2 currently is perfectly fine. It can be used for very few things practically like maintaining a little bit extra speed on some rollout jumps and cheating rampslides elsewhere, and if you can do it consistently-ish on a class like medic you can actually make decent gains when escaping etc.

It's very very situational atm, but I don't think it needs to be anything more than that.

no.
EDIT: I just remembered how people used fps_max 49.254 for consistant speedruns or fps_max 53.93981377 for inconsistant lucky speedruns. Those frame maxes were for 100 tick though. It just encourages bullshit overall.