damn bro
RGL 6s league
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
Noone played matchmaking because:
- Hackers in every game.
- Queue South American players with Asian players with European Players all on an Asian server.
- Ridiculously unbalanced matches due to lack of placement matches, lack of a proper elo system, and lack of a playerbase.
Valve tried making tf2 a competitive game, it didn't work. I respect them for at least trying with matchmaking, but it was so riddled with problems that haven't been fixed years after the release, that it is never going to happen. Valve will not support competitive tf2 in game.
Please stop being delusional thinking valve need "data" to change weapons. They don't need data. There is not enough players in competitive tf2 to give them any sort of useful data. If you try to find correlations in a shitty sample, then you are going to find completely irrelevant stats, and are going to miss the actual important ones.
What Valve needs is people who actually play competitive tf2 to tell them what to do, and for them to listen and do it. That is not going to happen since the playerbase of competitive players is so split, not only into HL/6's but also within these modes into those who want to ban everything, and those who want to unban everything, and all opinions in between. We don't even know what we want.
All I want is for Valve to fix many of the bugs in the game, to keep servers alive, and to advertise and promote competitive tf2 (both HL and 6's) financially. But that's just me. I don't expect them to do these things. What I do expect is for people to stop acting like you are a savior of tf2 with your data collection. Play this league for fun, to win, for money, for new strats, for a new gamemode, for ANY reason OTHER than data collection. If there are any good updates that were claimed to be originated from the data gathered by competitive tf2 players, they are 100% pure blind luck, since there aren't enough players to actually get useful data.
edit: tl;dr agree with getawhale
Noone played matchmaking because:
- Hackers in every game.
- Queue South American players with Asian players with European Players all on an Asian server.
- Ridiculously unbalanced matches due to lack of placement matches, lack of a proper elo system, and lack of a playerbase.
Valve tried making tf2 a competitive game, it didn't work. I respect them for at least trying with matchmaking, but it was so riddled with problems that haven't been fixed years after the release, that it is never going to happen. Valve will not support competitive tf2 in game.
Please stop being delusional thinking valve need "data" to change weapons. They don't need data. There is not enough players in competitive tf2 to give them any sort of useful data. If you try to find correlations in a shitty sample, then you are going to find completely irrelevant stats, and are going to miss the actual important ones.
What Valve needs is people who actually play competitive tf2 to tell them what to do, and for them to listen and do it. That is not going to happen since the playerbase of competitive players is so split, not only into HL/6's but also within these modes into those who want to ban everything, and those who want to unban everything, and all opinions in between. We don't even know what we want.
All I want is for Valve to fix many of the bugs in the game, to keep servers alive, and to advertise and promote competitive tf2 (both HL and 6's) financially. But that's just me. I don't expect them to do these things. What I do expect is for people to stop acting like you are a savior of tf2 with your data collection. Play this league for fun, to win, for money, for new strats, for a new gamemode, for ANY reason OTHER than data collection. If there are any good updates that were claimed to be originated from the data gathered by competitive tf2 players, they are 100% pure blind luck, since there aren't enough players to actually get useful data.
edit: tl;dr agree with getawhale
- Hackers in every game.
- Queue South American players with Asian players with European Players all on an Asian server.
- Ridiculously unbalanced matches due to lack of placement matches, lack of a proper elo system, and lack of a playerbase.
Valve tried making tf2 a competitive game, it didn't work. I respect them for at least trying with matchmaking, but it was so riddled with problems that haven't been fixed years after the release, that it is never going to happen. Valve will not support competitive tf2 in game.
Please stop being delusional thinking valve need "data" to change weapons. They don't need data. There is not enough players in competitive tf2 to give them any sort of useful data. If you try to find correlations in a shitty sample, then you are going to find completely irrelevant stats, and are going to miss the actual important ones.
What Valve needs is people who actually play competitive tf2 to tell them what to do, and for them to listen and do it. That is not going to happen since the playerbase of competitive players is so split, not only into HL/6's but also within these modes into those who want to ban everything, and those who want to unban everything, and all opinions in between. We don't even know what we want.
All I want is for Valve to fix many of the bugs in the game, to keep servers alive, and to advertise and promote competitive tf2 (both HL and 6's) financially. But that's just me. I don't expect them to do these things. What I do expect is for people to stop acting like you are a savior of tf2 with your data collection. Play this league for fun, to win, for money, for new strats, for a new gamemode, for ANY reason OTHER than data collection. If there are any good updates that were claimed to be originated from the data gathered by competitive tf2 players, they are 100% pure blind luck, since there aren't enough players to actually get useful data.
edit: tl;dr agree with getawhale
Mak@lucrative
if they even make a balance update it will be shit. all of them in the past have been. The ones that are closest to good still have some retarded nonsense sprinkled in. They are incompetent fuckers, completely out of touch with their own game. They should know shit like Milk, Jarate, Wrangler, Rescue Ranger is retarded but they don't. Most this shit has been in the game for half a decade or longer borderline untouched.
Instead they nerf stickies and minigun in the weirdest way possible, even if the nerfs are warranted (not in the case of the minigun, perhaps in the case of stickies)
history shows I am right, they don't know what the fuck they're doing lmfao. "statistics" hasnt done shit cause they always say they buff/nerf based on that, but its clearly bullshit or irrelevant. This league/project has noble intentions but isnt gonna accomplish anything.
I mean you're whole argument can't even pertain to this league because they have never been able to balance from the Top down when it comes to half the unlocks because half of them just get banned in competitive play and they don't want anything to do with 6v6 players who won't use half of the weapons they make. The only statistics they get are from bad players and pubs.
I would argue history shows that competitive players are not right to be fair. 6v6 community has always shot itself in the foot when it comes to being receptive to what valve wants in the past and that's how this situation is the way it is in the first place. Turn around and call the updates shit and the balance shit all you want but 6v6 players have never made the connection between valve and 6v6 a 2-way street, its always been us thinking we know best and it yielding nothing cause we actually don't know best.
I think this league could be great and have a greater impact than you're perceiving currently. Also once again, none of you save a few individuals (b4nny and extine mostly) actually have sat in a room with the dev team or spoken to Robin Walker and can reiterate what they have plans for and what they would like to see. I would just personally prefer it if people stop pretending they know what they are talking about in this regard when they don't.
[quote=Mak]@lucrative
if they even make a balance update it will be shit. all of them in the past have been. The ones that are closest to good still have some retarded nonsense sprinkled in. They are incompetent fuckers, completely out of touch with their own game. They should know shit like Milk, Jarate, Wrangler, Rescue Ranger is retarded but they don't. Most this shit has been in the game for half a decade or longer borderline untouched.
Instead they nerf stickies and minigun in the weirdest way possible, even if the nerfs are warranted (not in the case of the minigun, perhaps in the case of stickies)
history shows I am right, they don't know what the fuck they're doing lmfao. "statistics" hasnt done shit cause they always say they buff/nerf based on that, but its clearly bullshit or irrelevant. This league/project has noble intentions but isnt gonna accomplish anything.[/quote]
I mean you're whole argument can't even pertain to this league because they have never been able to balance from the Top down when it comes to half the unlocks because half of them just get banned in competitive play and they don't want anything to do with 6v6 players who won't use half of the weapons they make. The only statistics they get are from bad players and pubs.
I would argue history shows that competitive players are not right to be fair. 6v6 community has always shot itself in the foot when it comes to being receptive to what valve wants in the past and that's how this situation is the way it is in the first place. Turn around and call the updates shit and the balance shit all you want but 6v6 players have never made the connection between valve and 6v6 a 2-way street, its always been us thinking we know best and it yielding nothing cause we actually don't know best.
I think this league could be great and have a greater impact than you're perceiving currently. Also once again, none of you save a few individuals (b4nny and extine mostly) actually have sat in a room with the dev team or spoken to Robin Walker and can reiterate what they have plans for and what they would like to see. I would just personally prefer it if people stop pretending they know what they are talking about in this regard when they don't.
if they even make a balance update it will be shit. all of them in the past have been. The ones that are closest to good still have some retarded nonsense sprinkled in. They are incompetent fuckers, completely out of touch with their own game. They should know shit like Milk, Jarate, Wrangler, Rescue Ranger is retarded but they don't. Most this shit has been in the game for half a decade or longer borderline untouched.
Instead they nerf stickies and minigun in the weirdest way possible, even if the nerfs are warranted (not in the case of the minigun, perhaps in the case of stickies)
history shows I am right, they don't know what the fuck they're doing lmfao. "statistics" hasnt done shit cause they always say they buff/nerf based on that, but its clearly bullshit or irrelevant. This league/project has noble intentions but isnt gonna accomplish anything.[/quote]
I mean you're whole argument can't even pertain to this league because they have never been able to balance from the Top down when it comes to half the unlocks because half of them just get banned in competitive play and they don't want anything to do with 6v6 players who won't use half of the weapons they make. The only statistics they get are from bad players and pubs.
I would argue history shows that competitive players are not right to be fair. 6v6 community has always shot itself in the foot when it comes to being receptive to what valve wants in the past and that's how this situation is the way it is in the first place. Turn around and call the updates shit and the balance shit all you want but 6v6 players have never made the connection between valve and 6v6 a 2-way street, its always been us thinking we know best and it yielding nothing cause we actually don't know best.
I think this league could be great and have a greater impact than you're perceiving currently. Also once again, none of you save a few individuals (b4nny and extine mostly) actually have sat in a room with the dev team or spoken to Robin Walker and can reiterate what they have plans for and what they would like to see. I would just personally prefer it if people stop pretending they know what they are talking about in this regard when they don't.
I'm actually excited to see this, Valve has shown us what they want to see in terms of competitive tf2 and up until now there's been no league supporting their format. This league will do a lot in determining whether Valve's idea of no class limits and no weapon bans is actually viable.
I'm actually excited to see this, Valve has shown us what they want to see in terms of competitive tf2 and up until now there's been no league supporting their format. This league will do a lot in determining whether Valve's idea of no class limits and no weapon bans is actually viable.
wonder what six classes froyo are gonna run
assuming they are allowed to play
wonder what six classes froyo are gonna run
assuming they are allowed to play
assuming they are allowed to play
idc about whats gonna happen during 5cp games, probs gonna run the usual meta classes, 2 scouts 2 soldiers 1 demo 1 med, i'm more interested in seeing whats gonna be run in payload, or koth
idc about whats gonna happen during 5cp games, probs gonna run the usual meta classes, 2 scouts 2 soldiers 1 demo 1 med, i'm more interested in seeing whats gonna be run in payload, or koth
i played mm earlier and someone disconnected so we got a bot scout and even the bot went afk for like a minute, theres alot of things wrong with mm
i played mm earlier and someone disconnected so we got a bot scout and even the bot went afk for like a minute, theres alot of things wrong with mm
I'mma be streaming myself waiting in the queue for Comp.MM in about an hour or so, either join the queue or watch me play Minesweeper for an hour like last time.
I'mma be streaming myself waiting in the queue for Comp.MM in about an hour or so, either join the queue or watch me play Minesweeper for an hour like last time.
lmao all of the deluded people in this thread that actually believe that this time is the time that valve would listen to feedback rather than any other point in time in the past 5 years.
lmao all of the deluded people in this thread that actually believe that [i]this time[/i] is the time that valve would listen to feedback rather than any other point in time in the past 5 years.
Whilst I'm against the completely open whitelist and lack of class limits, suggesting a very limited whitelist banning only bugged weapons and potentially enforcing minor class limits. I do think that this can only be at a minimum neutral. Either:
- It's terrible and we go back to playing the way we normally do.
- It's decent and we can begin to tweak rules based on findings.
I still hold the belief that we shouldn't be catering towards a player base that isn't interested in playing competitive or hoping that bringing our ruleset closer to Matchmaking will actually constitute anything since historically this hasn't been the case. Again, at this point, why would Valve realistically invest in the scene at all? If we knew more about what feedback they do listen to and how they intend to approach their own vision in comparison with ours, then perhaps many more people would be willing to change. But since they are notoriously one-way with their communication, I believe we should just focus on making the scene as comfortable for the majority and perfect what we already have rather than aggressively changing rulesets in a vague attempt to bring us to some sort of modern relevancy.
That all aside, I do think that people should sign up to this league to make up their own opinions on it. I'm more than willing to accept my viewpoint is antiquated or misguided if evidence comes up to counter it, but until then i'm remaining skeptical.
Whilst I'm against the completely open whitelist and lack of class limits, suggesting a very limited whitelist banning only bugged weapons and potentially enforcing minor class limits. I do think that this can only be at a minimum neutral. Either:
[olist]
[*] It's terrible and we go back to playing the way we normally do.
[*] It's decent and we can begin to tweak rules based on findings.
[/olist]
I still hold the belief that we shouldn't be catering towards a player base that isn't interested in playing competitive or hoping that bringing our ruleset closer to Matchmaking will actually constitute anything since historically this hasn't been the case. Again, at this point, why would Valve realistically invest in the scene at all? If we knew more about what feedback they do listen to and how they intend to approach their own vision in comparison with ours, then perhaps many more people would be willing to change. But since they are notoriously one-way with their communication, I believe we should just focus on making the scene as comfortable for the majority and perfect what we already have rather than aggressively changing rulesets in a vague attempt to bring us to some sort of modern relevancy.
That all aside, I do think that people should sign up to this league to make up their own opinions on it. I'm more than willing to accept my viewpoint is antiquated or misguided if evidence comes up to counter it, but until then i'm remaining skeptical.
[olist]
[*] It's terrible and we go back to playing the way we normally do.
[*] It's decent and we can begin to tweak rules based on findings.
[/olist]
I still hold the belief that we shouldn't be catering towards a player base that isn't interested in playing competitive or hoping that bringing our ruleset closer to Matchmaking will actually constitute anything since historically this hasn't been the case. Again, at this point, why would Valve realistically invest in the scene at all? If we knew more about what feedback they do listen to and how they intend to approach their own vision in comparison with ours, then perhaps many more people would be willing to change. But since they are notoriously one-way with their communication, I believe we should just focus on making the scene as comfortable for the majority and perfect what we already have rather than aggressively changing rulesets in a vague attempt to bring us to some sort of modern relevancy.
That all aside, I do think that people should sign up to this league to make up their own opinions on it. I'm more than willing to accept my viewpoint is antiquated or misguided if evidence comes up to counter it, but until then i'm remaining skeptical.
sigafooThe goal of this is to get as much real feedback as possible to give to Valve to help bring the comp community and Valve closer together.
i thought we'd be done hearing this shit by now
[quote=sigafoo]The goal of this is to get as much real feedback as possible to give to Valve to help bring the comp community and Valve closer together.[/quote]
i thought we'd be done hearing this shit by now
i thought we'd be done hearing this shit by now
I'm fairly new to comp in general, and I don't play 6s ever. I find that the format and the community is very unwelcoming to newer players who have no interest in playing scout, soldier, demo or medic. being able to play classes that I enjoy while not basically being frowned upon is why I enjoy HL and prolander more. I'm thrilled that this was announced, and I'm willing actually give it a serious try.
I'm fairly new to comp in general, and I don't play 6s ever. I find that the format and the community is very unwelcoming to newer players who have no interest in playing scout, soldier, demo or medic. being able to play classes that I enjoy while not basically being frowned upon is why I enjoy HL and prolander more. I'm thrilled that this was announced, and I'm willing actually give it a serious try.
You probably shouldn't jump to no class limits/whitelist and instead do smaller changes (e.g. scout class limit 1, unbanning quick-fix) because there will be multiple new factors at work influencing gameplay. Smaller changes allow you to analyse the benefits of those changes on their own which makes it more useful for 'feedback'.
You probably shouldn't jump to no class limits/whitelist and instead do smaller changes (e.g. scout class limit 1, unbanning quick-fix) because there will be multiple new factors at work influencing gameplay. Smaller changes allow you to analyse the benefits of those changes on their own which makes it more useful for 'feedback'.
Tino_lmao all of the disillusioned people in this thread that actually believe that this time is the time that valve would listen to feedback rather than any other point in time in the past 5 years.
sorry to be a pedant but disillusioned would be you and me who know that they aren't gonna do shit. kinda important cause completely opposite meaning
[quote=Tino_]lmao all of the disillusioned people in this thread that actually believe that [i]this time[/i] is the time that valve would listen to feedback rather than any other point in time in the past 5 years.[/quote]
sorry to be a pedant but disillusioned would be you and me who know that they aren't gonna do shit. kinda important cause completely opposite meaning
sorry to be a pedant but disillusioned would be you and me who know that they aren't gonna do shit. kinda important cause completely opposite meaning
This is one of the few of sigafoo's ideas that I actually like.
This is one of the few of sigafoo's ideas that I actually like.
lucrativeI think this league could be great and have a greater impact than you're perceiving currently. Also once again, none of you save a few individuals (b4nny and extine mostly) actually have sat in a room with the dev team or spoken to Robin Walker and can reiterate what they have plans for and what they would like to see. I would just personally prefer it if people stop pretending they know what they are talking about in this regard when they don't.
What up dude, I respect you a ton. And actually, you make good points about people shooting themselves in the foot, about close-minded people, about people bullshitting etc.
But like.. here's the way some of us look at it. Matchmaking started to come around in 2015, and that was also the same year we saw skins introduced, and a bunch of other shit that seemed exciting. Then 2016 was the year we all got to try matchmaking. That year, many streamers and community folks, we were TALKING TO VALVE like very consistently - Jill appeared, friended many of us on Steam, watched our streams very frequently, and showed up in Twitch chat a lot, as well as here and in other places. Made it clear Valve HQ was watching our streams, and looking at whatever improvements were needed. He wanted feedback, info, data, etc. And as I recall, that was a big part of their messaging around that time - "We're collecting data during this Matchmaking BETA" - remember that? The beta that you needed a pass to take part in? That's about 3 years ago this month.
So now it's 2019. And it's hard not to realize.. like look, Valve doesn't talk to us anymore, at all, and hasn't in years. And also they stopped putting out updates. There was supposed to be a Heavy update, but I wouldn't expect that to ship. And also, some of the best most talented, skilled people, guys who put thousands of their own dollars into this game, people like Lange and dashner and Sideshow/Bren and Arie and Byte and Sal and cbear (and others).. they've been gone for YEARS. And their efforts only worked up to a certain point - yes we have great production value now and great plugins still kinda, and a cool tournament in England once a year plus a couple other events, but.. the GAME, the SCENE has gone nowhere. Can you show me any of the good that sending Valve data years ago has done? Yes, we get a balance pass once a year or two. That's just a paint-job though.
So my perspective is not one of negativity or disdain or pessimism, it's more like "Well the best people we've ever had busted their fuckin asses for almost 10 years and if that didn't work, and we don't really have people like that around anymore, then maybe we just have fun and do what we can until they shut down the servers." And I see that as more realism than it is cynicism. AND, I perceive that people are kinda in that mode now. People still DM and MGE every day and I think that's great, and I respect that people still care that much. I'm glad they play in serious pay leagues, and less serious free leagues.
We haven't spoken to Valve in years now. Beyond messaging them to get an event blast in-game or a blog post. But I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty that nobody at Valve is waiting on a pile of data so they can improve competitive 6v6 in TF2. Even if they got it, there is zero manpower to do anything, and basically zero incentive. Again, I would love to be proven wrong, but there comes a point when the evidence is just overwhelming. From a business standpoint, all Valve has to do is pay the light bill and throw a community holiday update a few times a year. And that's where they've been at for a while. It's sad sure, and it's disappointing sure, but the best thing to do is make the best of it. People aren't shutting this down fully out of pessimism (not most people anyway) - it's actually very rooted in reality and history and precedent.
Folks who played in the 7v7 league tend to say they enjoyed it, and that it's fun. So let the kids keep having fun; it's a fun-ass game and that's where we both started, having fun. But let's not put too much stock in the idea that "Sending Valve Data" is the only thing holding us back from a major and player stickers and prize money and "legitimacy" as a top-tier esport.
EDIT: Here's an idea. Maybe we just ASK Valve if they have any use for data, and try to get some realistic expectations of what they want, and what they may be capable of doing with it. sigafoo, if you've had talks with them, this would be a great time to mention that and give all the details. If not, it might be a great time to do so. Credit to artichoke for the fairly obvious idea.
[quote=lucrative]I think this league could be great and have a greater impact than you're perceiving currently. Also once again, none of you save a few individuals (b4nny and extine mostly) actually have sat in a room with the dev team or spoken to Robin Walker and can reiterate what they have plans for and what they would like to see. I would just personally prefer it if people stop pretending they know what they are talking about in this regard when they don't.[/quote]
What up dude, I respect you a ton. And actually, you make good points about people shooting themselves in the foot, about close-minded people, about people bullshitting etc.
But like.. here's the way some of us look at it. Matchmaking started to come around in 2015, and that was also the same year we saw skins introduced, and a bunch of other shit that seemed exciting. Then 2016 was the year we all got to try matchmaking. That year, many streamers and community folks, we were TALKING TO VALVE like very consistently - Jill appeared, friended many of us on Steam, watched our streams very frequently, and showed up in Twitch chat a lot, as well as here and in other places. Made it clear Valve HQ was watching our streams, and looking at whatever improvements were needed. He wanted feedback, info, data, etc. And as I recall, that was a big part of their messaging around that time - "We're collecting data during this Matchmaking BETA" - remember that? The beta that you needed a pass to take part in? That's about 3 years ago this month.
So now it's 2019. And it's hard not to realize.. like look, Valve doesn't talk to us anymore, at all, and hasn't in years. And also they stopped putting out updates. There was supposed to be a Heavy update, but I wouldn't expect that to ship. And also, some of the best most talented, skilled people, guys who put thousands of their own dollars into this game, people like Lange and dashner and Sideshow/Bren and Arie and Byte and Sal and cbear (and others).. they've been gone for YEARS. And their efforts only worked up to a certain point - yes we have great production value now and great plugins still kinda, and a cool tournament in England once a year plus a couple other events, but.. the GAME, the SCENE has gone nowhere. Can you show me any of the good that sending Valve data years ago has done? Yes, we get a balance pass once a year or two. That's just a paint-job though.
So my perspective is not one of negativity or disdain or pessimism, it's more like "Well the best people we've ever had busted their fuckin asses for almost 10 years and if that didn't work, and we don't really have people like that around anymore, then maybe we just have fun and do what we can until they shut down the servers." And I see that as more realism than it is cynicism. AND, I perceive that people are kinda in that mode now. People still DM and MGE every day and I think that's great, and I respect that people still care that much. I'm glad they play in serious pay leagues, and less serious free leagues.
We haven't spoken to Valve in years now. Beyond messaging them to get an event blast in-game or a blog post. But I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty that nobody at Valve is waiting on a pile of data so they can improve competitive 6v6 in TF2. Even if they got it, there is zero manpower to do anything, and basically zero incentive. Again, I would love to be proven wrong, but there comes a point when the evidence is just overwhelming. From a business standpoint, all Valve has to do is pay the light bill and throw a community holiday update a few times a year. And that's where they've been at for a while. It's sad sure, and it's disappointing sure, but the best thing to do is make the best of it. People aren't shutting this down fully out of pessimism (not most people anyway) - it's actually very rooted in reality and history and precedent.
Folks who played in the 7v7 league tend to say they enjoyed it, and that it's fun. So let the kids keep having fun; it's a fun-ass game and that's where we both started, having fun. But let's not put too much stock in the idea that "Sending Valve Data" is the only thing holding us back from a major and player stickers and prize money and "legitimacy" as a top-tier esport.
EDIT: Here's an idea. Maybe we just [b]ASK[/b] Valve if they have any use for data, and try to get some realistic expectations of what they want, and what they may be capable of doing with it. sigafoo, if you've had talks with them, this would be a great time to mention that and give all the details. If not, it might be a great time to do so. Credit to artichoke for the fairly obvious idea.
What up dude, I respect you a ton. And actually, you make good points about people shooting themselves in the foot, about close-minded people, about people bullshitting etc.
But like.. here's the way some of us look at it. Matchmaking started to come around in 2015, and that was also the same year we saw skins introduced, and a bunch of other shit that seemed exciting. Then 2016 was the year we all got to try matchmaking. That year, many streamers and community folks, we were TALKING TO VALVE like very consistently - Jill appeared, friended many of us on Steam, watched our streams very frequently, and showed up in Twitch chat a lot, as well as here and in other places. Made it clear Valve HQ was watching our streams, and looking at whatever improvements were needed. He wanted feedback, info, data, etc. And as I recall, that was a big part of their messaging around that time - "We're collecting data during this Matchmaking BETA" - remember that? The beta that you needed a pass to take part in? That's about 3 years ago this month.
So now it's 2019. And it's hard not to realize.. like look, Valve doesn't talk to us anymore, at all, and hasn't in years. And also they stopped putting out updates. There was supposed to be a Heavy update, but I wouldn't expect that to ship. And also, some of the best most talented, skilled people, guys who put thousands of their own dollars into this game, people like Lange and dashner and Sideshow/Bren and Arie and Byte and Sal and cbear (and others).. they've been gone for YEARS. And their efforts only worked up to a certain point - yes we have great production value now and great plugins still kinda, and a cool tournament in England once a year plus a couple other events, but.. the GAME, the SCENE has gone nowhere. Can you show me any of the good that sending Valve data years ago has done? Yes, we get a balance pass once a year or two. That's just a paint-job though.
So my perspective is not one of negativity or disdain or pessimism, it's more like "Well the best people we've ever had busted their fuckin asses for almost 10 years and if that didn't work, and we don't really have people like that around anymore, then maybe we just have fun and do what we can until they shut down the servers." And I see that as more realism than it is cynicism. AND, I perceive that people are kinda in that mode now. People still DM and MGE every day and I think that's great, and I respect that people still care that much. I'm glad they play in serious pay leagues, and less serious free leagues.
We haven't spoken to Valve in years now. Beyond messaging them to get an event blast in-game or a blog post. But I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty that nobody at Valve is waiting on a pile of data so they can improve competitive 6v6 in TF2. Even if they got it, there is zero manpower to do anything, and basically zero incentive. Again, I would love to be proven wrong, but there comes a point when the evidence is just overwhelming. From a business standpoint, all Valve has to do is pay the light bill and throw a community holiday update a few times a year. And that's where they've been at for a while. It's sad sure, and it's disappointing sure, but the best thing to do is make the best of it. People aren't shutting this down fully out of pessimism (not most people anyway) - it's actually very rooted in reality and history and precedent.
Folks who played in the 7v7 league tend to say they enjoyed it, and that it's fun. So let the kids keep having fun; it's a fun-ass game and that's where we both started, having fun. But let's not put too much stock in the idea that "Sending Valve Data" is the only thing holding us back from a major and player stickers and prize money and "legitimacy" as a top-tier esport.
EDIT: Here's an idea. Maybe we just [b]ASK[/b] Valve if they have any use for data, and try to get some realistic expectations of what they want, and what they may be capable of doing with it. sigafoo, if you've had talks with them, this would be a great time to mention that and give all the details. If not, it might be a great time to do so. Credit to artichoke for the fairly obvious idea.
MakTino_lmao all of the disillusioned people in this thread that actually believe that this time is the time that valve would listen to feedback rather than any other point in time in the past 5 years.
sorry to be a pedant but disillusioned would be you and me who know that they aren't gonna do shit. kinda important cause completely opposite meaning
Fuck nope, your right. Meant deluded no idea why I said disillusioned.
[quote=Mak][quote=Tino_]lmao all of the disillusioned people in this thread that actually believe that [i]this time[/i] is the time that valve would listen to feedback rather than any other point in time in the past 5 years.[/quote]
sorry to be a pedant but disillusioned would be you and me who know that they aren't gonna do shit. kinda important cause completely opposite meaning[/quote]
Fuck nope, your right. Meant deluded no idea why I said disillusioned.
sorry to be a pedant but disillusioned would be you and me who know that they aren't gonna do shit. kinda important cause completely opposite meaning[/quote]
Fuck nope, your right. Meant deluded no idea why I said disillusioned.
GetawhaleEDIT: Here's an idea. Maybe we just ASK Valve if they have any use for data, and try to get some realistic expectations of what they want, and what they may be capable of doing with it....
WTF do you think they told us in 2015, 2014, and 2013? Why do we need to ask a notoriously uncommunicative company a question we already know the answer to?
[quote=Getawhale]
EDIT: Here's an idea. Maybe we just [b]ASK[/b] Valve if they have any use for data, and try to get some realistic expectations of what they want, and what they may be capable of doing with it.... [/quote]
WTF do you think they told us in 2015, 2014, and 2013? Why do we need to ask a notoriously uncommunicative company a question we already know the answer to?
EDIT: Here's an idea. Maybe we just [b]ASK[/b] Valve if they have any use for data, and try to get some realistic expectations of what they want, and what they may be capable of doing with it.... [/quote]
WTF do you think they told us in 2015, 2014, and 2013? Why do we need to ask a notoriously uncommunicative company a question we already know the answer to?
I mean not gonna lie it beats 7v7 HL so that's an improvement
It will at least be somewhat funny to watch with double medic like in 2007 cl2
this has my support based on those 2 things
I mean not gonna lie it beats 7v7 HL so that's an improvement
It will at least be somewhat funny to watch with double medic like in 2007 cl2
this has my support based on those 2 things
It will at least be somewhat funny to watch with double medic like in 2007 cl2
this has my support based on those 2 things
In an environment where the goal is specifically experimentation in class setup and weapon use, can we get some clarification on the "no thrown matches" piece of the bounty rule? In a system with no established meta, is it "throwing" if you stay on a composition that is losing, even if you are trying to make it work? Seems like a rule that's maybe a little too discretionary & will possibly discourage teams from experimenting with anything too far out of the norm due to fears of losing out on the bounty keys.
In an environment where the goal is specifically experimentation in class setup and weapon use, can we get some clarification on the "no thrown matches" piece of the bounty rule? In a system with no established meta, is it "throwing" if you stay on a composition that is losing, even if you are trying to make it work? Seems like a rule that's maybe a little too discretionary & will possibly discourage teams from experimenting with anything too far out of the norm due to fears of losing out on the bounty keys.
every comp player that has visited valve has always came back saying we need to run no class limits and no whitelist
do whatever u want with this information....
every comp player that has visited valve has always came back saying we need to run no class limits and no whitelist
do whatever u want with this information....
do whatever u want with this information....
eXtineGetawhaleEDIT: Here's an idea. Maybe we just ASK Valve if they have any use for data, and try to get some realistic expectations of what they want, and what they may be capable of doing with it....
WTF do you think they told us in 2015, 2014, and 2013? Why do we need to ask a notoriously uncommunicative company a question we already know the answer to?
Good point. I guess I was more just giving him an opening to share any discussion he may have had, or what the latest is. Rather than just saying "We know what the answer is".
But this had a positive effect overall, because you are very clearly one of those people who WOULD know better than anyone. Which goes towards responding to lucrative's point of (and sorry I have to paraphrase and simplify it) "How do we know if we don't ask/try" or "People who don't know anything should stop commenting" etc
[quote=eXtine][quote=Getawhale]
EDIT: Here's an idea. Maybe we just [b]ASK[/b] Valve if they have any use for data, and try to get some realistic expectations of what they want, and what they may be capable of doing with it.... [/quote]
WTF do you think they told us in 2015, 2014, and 2013? Why do we need to ask a notoriously uncommunicative company a question we already know the answer to?[/quote]
Good point. I guess I was more just giving him an opening to share any discussion he may have had, or what the latest is. Rather than just saying "We know what the answer is".
But this had a positive effect overall, because you are very clearly one of those people who WOULD know better than anyone. Which goes towards responding to lucrative's point of (and sorry I have to paraphrase and simplify it) "How do we know if we don't ask/try" or "People who don't know anything should stop commenting" etc
EDIT: Here's an idea. Maybe we just [b]ASK[/b] Valve if they have any use for data, and try to get some realistic expectations of what they want, and what they may be capable of doing with it.... [/quote]
WTF do you think they told us in 2015, 2014, and 2013? Why do we need to ask a notoriously uncommunicative company a question we already know the answer to?[/quote]
Good point. I guess I was more just giving him an opening to share any discussion he may have had, or what the latest is. Rather than just saying "We know what the answer is".
But this had a positive effect overall, because you are very clearly one of those people who WOULD know better than anyone. Which goes towards responding to lucrative's point of (and sorry I have to paraphrase and simplify it) "How do we know if we don't ask/try" or "People who don't know anything should stop commenting" etc
Valve do listen to the competitive community. In 2014, after months of being ridiculously OP, valve had the final straw with the cz75 in csgo after Dreamhack Winter 2014 (the major) after it was 4th-used weapon at the event, with nearly as many kills as the AWP. https://www.hltv.org/stats?event=1553 They nerfed the fuck out of it 2 weeks after the event ended. They did something similar with the tec-9 two weeks after it was shown to be OP at ESL One Katowice.
Note that these weapons had been OP for months but the final straw was them being shown to be utterly game-breaking at the highest level. They then tried to introduce the r8 revolver but after being shown to be completely and utterly game-breaking, it was banned by tournaments and valve quickly nerfed the fuck out of it. Since then, valve haven't added any game-breaking weapons to the game.
Want to know the difference between the r8 being banned by CSGO tournaments and the 6s whitelist? CSGO tournaments use almost exactly the same rules and shit as Valve matchmaking.
Valve [b]do[/b] listen to the competitive community. In 2014, after months of being ridiculously OP, valve had the final straw with the cz75 in csgo after Dreamhack Winter 2014 (the major) after it was 4th-used weapon at the event, with nearly as many kills as the AWP. https://www.hltv.org/stats?event=1553 They nerfed the fuck out of it 2 weeks after the event ended. They did something similar with the tec-9 two weeks after it was shown to be OP at ESL One Katowice.
Note that these weapons had been OP for months but the final straw was them being shown to be utterly game-breaking at the highest level. They then tried to introduce the r8 revolver but after being shown to be completely and utterly game-breaking, it was banned by tournaments and valve quickly nerfed the fuck out of it. Since then, valve haven't added any game-breaking weapons to the game.
Want to know the difference between the r8 being banned by CSGO tournaments and the 6s whitelist? CSGO tournaments use almost exactly the same rules and shit as Valve matchmaking.
Note that these weapons had been OP for months but the final straw was them being shown to be utterly game-breaking at the highest level. They then tried to introduce the r8 revolver but after being shown to be completely and utterly game-breaking, it was banned by tournaments and valve quickly nerfed the fuck out of it. Since then, valve haven't added any game-breaking weapons to the game.
Want to know the difference between the r8 being banned by CSGO tournaments and the 6s whitelist? CSGO tournaments use almost exactly the same rules and shit as Valve matchmaking.
tuawords
Valve has completely separate teams with completely different people working on CSGO and TF2. To treat them the same just because they are both under Valve is asinine. Also, these tweaks are after years of official support so being on the leash of the CSGO team has a tangible payoff.
To counter the TF2 team has ceased communication other then add things to the game that other people made. The TF2 team has ludicriously few resources. To expect a tournament to provide that final sliver of data about weapon balance to cause the TF2 team to rush out of their bunker and grace us with any kind of support is lunacy.
Once again, sigafoo can do whatever he wants with his money and people are free to play, but no valuable change will come from this tournament.
[quote=tua]words[/quote]
Valve has completely separate teams with completely different people working on CSGO and TF2. To treat them the same just because they are both under Valve is asinine. Also, these tweaks are after years of official support so being on the leash of the CSGO team has a tangible payoff.
To counter the TF2 team has ceased communication other then add things to the game that other people made. The TF2 team has ludicriously few resources. To expect a tournament to provide that final sliver of data about weapon balance to cause the TF2 team to rush out of their bunker and grace us with any kind of support is lunacy.
Once again, sigafoo can do whatever he wants with his money and people are free to play, but no valuable change will come from this tournament.
Valve has completely separate teams with completely different people working on CSGO and TF2. To treat them the same just because they are both under Valve is asinine. Also, these tweaks are after years of official support so being on the leash of the CSGO team has a tangible payoff.
To counter the TF2 team has ceased communication other then add things to the game that other people made. The TF2 team has ludicriously few resources. To expect a tournament to provide that final sliver of data about weapon balance to cause the TF2 team to rush out of their bunker and grace us with any kind of support is lunacy.
Once again, sigafoo can do whatever he wants with his money and people are free to play, but no valuable change will come from this tournament.
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