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TF Competitive 6v6 Class Restrictions
121
#121
4 Frags +
Tynnyribloodmachine You're wrong.bloodmachineyou spent a week trying to argue
In a discussion, it's regular to change one's mind and agree with others. In an argument, the goal is to change others' minds. I've been fine with people disagreeing with me.
bloodmachineyou spent a week trying to argue back and forth with people that know about the topic than you.
You should probably avoid "appeal to authority" in the future. If someone truly knows more about the topic, their knowledge should allow them to discuss it effectively without needing to appeal to their own authority.

aint no grace in this lil bro good luck

[quote=Tynnyri][quote=bloodmachine] You're wrong.[/quote]

[quote=bloodmachine]you spent a week trying to argue [/quote]

In a discussion, it's regular to change one's mind and agree with others. In an argument, the goal is to change others' minds. I've been fine with people disagreeing with me.

[quote=bloodmachine]you spent a week trying to argue back and forth with people that know about the topic than you.[/quote]

You should probably avoid "appeal to authority" in the future. If someone truly knows more about the topic, their knowledge should allow them to discuss it effectively without needing to appeal to their own authority.[/quote]

aint no grace in this lil bro good luck
122
#122
-15 Frags +
bloodmachineaint no grace in this lil bro good luck

I've found that less sense the comment makes, less calm the person writing it was :)

[quote=bloodmachine]
aint no grace in this lil bro good luck[/quote]

I've found that less sense the comment makes, less calm the person writing it was :)
123
#123
10 Frags +
Tynnyribloodmachineaint no grace in this lil bro good luck
I've found that less sense the comment makes, less calm the person writing it was :)

wtf is this, Yoda?

[quote=Tynnyri][quote=bloodmachine]
aint no grace in this lil bro good luck[/quote]

I've found that less sense the comment makes, less calm the person writing it was :)[/quote]
wtf is this, Yoda?
124
#124
14 Frags +

I just really don't understand what is motivating you to be so evangelical about how 6s is an unnatural development, limits the fun of people who don't play scout/soldier, or is against some platonic ideal of competition (I don't think this is true, but whatever). You can find a group of friends who want to play 6v6 class limit one or go play highlander if you really want to.

I also think your automatic rejection of any argument that has some basis on "we've already done this before, and came to the conclusion we did because of xyz" or "you seem to have relatively little experience playing 6s, and I think it's leading you to draw conclusions that someone more familiar wouldn't come to" is misplaced. Yeah, I guess you could say that rhetorically people are asserting their authority because they don't want to spend the time in detail going over every single detail and nuance. But they're also annoyed that you're not really displaying any intellectual humility and loudly jumped into a space, telling us that we're all dumb and wrong and weird.

I think you were joking earlier when you were saying that Aimisadick seemed really cool and you didn't get why people didn't like him, but if you were genuinely serious, look at specifically his comments in the thread about mastercomfig. Mastercoms tirelessly puts in so much effort to extract as much performance as possible out of this game, and aimisadick repeatedly gave ludicrous pieces of feedback based out of his own ignorance and disrespectfully talked down to a pillar of the game. He was arrogant while being unknowledgeable. That's a pretty bad combo!

I just really don't understand what is motivating you to be so evangelical about how 6s is an unnatural development, limits the fun of people who don't play scout/soldier, or is against some platonic ideal of competition (I don't think this is true, but whatever). You can find a group of friends who want to play 6v6 class limit one or go play highlander if you really want to.

I also think your automatic rejection of any argument that has some basis on "we've already done this before, and came to the conclusion we did because of xyz" or "you seem to have relatively little experience playing 6s, and I think it's leading you to draw conclusions that someone more familiar wouldn't come to" is misplaced. Yeah, I guess you could say that rhetorically people are asserting their authority because they don't want to spend the time in detail going over every single detail and nuance. But they're also annoyed that you're not really displaying any intellectual humility and loudly jumped into a space, telling us that we're all dumb and wrong and weird.

I think you were joking earlier when you were saying that Aimisadick seemed really cool and you didn't get why people didn't like him, but if you were genuinely serious, look at specifically his comments in the thread about mastercomfig. Mastercoms tirelessly puts in so much effort to extract as much performance as possible out of this game, and aimisadick repeatedly gave ludicrous pieces of feedback based out of his own ignorance and disrespectfully talked down to a pillar of the game. He was arrogant while being unknowledgeable. That's a pretty bad combo!
125
#125
8 Frags +

It is simply another case of Eastern European syndrome I fear.

It is simply another case of Eastern European syndrome I fear.
126
#126
3 Frags +
plunkIt is simply another case of Eastern European syndrome I fear.

This guy is from Finland, US and Russia simultaneously, and his english is better than 99% of Eastern Europeans, I wouldn't be so sure

[quote=plunk]It is simply another case of Eastern European syndrome I fear.[/quote]
This guy is from Finland, US and Russia simultaneously, and his english is better than 99% of Eastern Europeans, I wouldn't be so sure
127
#127
0 Frags +
HerpTimplunkIt is simply another case of Eastern European syndrome I fear.This guy is from Finland, US and Russia simultaneously, and his english is better than 99% of Eastern Europeans, I wouldn't be so sure

Are you retarded he's from scotland

[quote=HerpTim][quote=plunk]It is simply another case of Eastern European syndrome I fear.[/quote]
This guy is from Finland, US and Russia simultaneously, and his english is better than 99% of Eastern Europeans, I wouldn't be so sure[/quote]

Are you retarded he's from scotland
128
#128
-14 Frags +
tsarI think you were joking earlier when you were saying that Aimisadick seemed really cool and you didn't get why people didn't like him, but if you were genuinely serious, look at specifically his comments!

I found a thread called "aimsdick block 9000" where people unironically accused him of something truly outrageous: Using semicolons and knowing Esperanto. At least in that thread, any new user would come to the conclusion that aimsadick is pretty darn cool.

tsarI just really don't understand what is motivating you to be so evangelical about how 6s is an unnatural development, limits the fun of people who don't play scout/soldier, or is against some platonic ideal of competition

I just wanted to discuss class limits. Sorry if that offends you. Nothing I said made 6s bad or in need of a change in my mind, and I never as much as implied it did.

tsarBut they're also annoyed that you're not really displaying any intellectual humility and loudly jumped into a space, telling us that we're all dumb and wrong and weird.

Okay, now you've stumped me. These types of posts are plenty in this thread. I've found they have become pretty hard to approach. I could just point out that I never called anyone's opinions wrong - But I guess you could just say I am lacking intellectual humility or something along those lines. I could also try explaining that "I disagree" and "you are wrong" are not the same thing, but that'd probably get me plastered by nerd emojis. I could point you the moments I agreed and complimented other's posts, but I guess that'd not work, it'd be arrogant to show that I wasn't arrogant before.

So I guess I'll just let you get away with it. After all, this reads like you're insulting a mirror - Might have something to do with the person in the mirror loudly jumping into a space, telling others' they are dumb and intellectually arrogant for disagreeing with him, and that means they must be automatically wrong.

"Magic mirror on the wall — show me the one I hate most of all."

[quote=tsar]I think you were joking earlier when you were saying that Aimisadick seemed really cool and you didn't get why people didn't like him, but if you were genuinely serious, look at specifically his comments![/quote]

I found a thread called "aimsdick block 9000" where people unironically accused him of something truly outrageous: Using semicolons and knowing Esperanto. At least in that thread, any new user would come to the conclusion that aimsadick is pretty darn cool.

[quote=tsar]I just really don't understand what is motivating you to be so evangelical about how 6s is an unnatural development, limits the fun of people who don't play scout/soldier, or is against some platonic ideal of competition[/quote]

I just wanted to discuss class limits. Sorry if that offends you. Nothing I said made 6s bad or in need of a change in my mind, and I never as much as implied it did.

[quote=tsar]But they're also annoyed that you're not really displaying any intellectual humility and loudly jumped into a space, telling us that we're all dumb and wrong and weird.[/quote]

Okay, now you've stumped me. These types of posts are plenty in this thread. I've found they have become pretty hard to approach. I could just point out that I never called anyone's opinions wrong - But I guess you could just say I am lacking intellectual humility or something along those lines. I could also try explaining that "I disagree" and "you are wrong" are not the same thing, but that'd probably get me plastered by nerd emojis. I could point you the moments I agreed and complimented other's posts, but I guess that'd not work, it'd be arrogant to show that I wasn't arrogant before.

So I guess I'll just let you get away with it. After all, this reads like you're insulting a mirror - Might have something to do with the person in the mirror loudly jumping into a space, telling others' they are dumb and intellectually arrogant for disagreeing with him, and that means they must be automatically wrong.

"Magic mirror on the wall — show me the one I hate most of all."
129
#129
26 Frags +

Is this what happens to you when you're unemployed

Is this what happens to you when you're unemployed
130
#130
Fireside Casts
11 Frags +

hey tynnyri can you keep posting im almost done training my algorithm so we can keep the discussion going even when you're not here

hey tynnyri can you keep posting im almost done training my algorithm so we can keep the discussion going even when you're not here
131
#131
8 Frags +
Tynnyriaimisadick

I agree with you that it was wrong for mustard to call him autisitc. This post was rightfully -fragged. I don't condone that, it was rude and unnecessary.

You still ignored the mastercoms example, though. Just because mustard was cruel doesn't mean that he didn't have an attitude and was completely out of his depth.

TynnyriNothing I said made 6s bad or in need of a change in my mind, and I never as much as implied it did.

This entire thread is about changing the most fundamental trait of 6s other than the number of players!

TynnyriMight have something to do with the person in the mirror loudly jumping into a space, telling others' they are dumb and intellectually arrogant for disagreeing with him, and that means they must be automatically wrong.

okay man. Look, to bring back up your triathlon example, you've essentially joined a facebook page for people who run 10ks, asked why we don't run triathlons, and asserted that "[10ks] are not a natural competitive development," and that our "[tracks and events] are weirdly specific." It's pretty natural for us to say "look man, it's not that deep, I just want to run. And I used to bike more, but I personally get more satisfaction and physical results by doing this."

I really want to hammer home that in the second response to this thread, Seinfeld said that this game was old enough to enlist and that you're not the first person to propose class limit one. It's a really old idea that many of us, as well as many highlander or casual players, have played before. We found it really found stale and not that fun. That's kinda the end of it! You said to us, "6s should have one class limit" and we said, "we tried that, it wasn't good," and then we talked in circles for five pages. I'm sure if you found a HL discord group, posted the same thing but argued that they should play 6v6 class limit one instead of 9v9 class limit one, things would go basically the same as they went here.

[quote=Tynnyri]
aimisadick
[/quote]
I agree with you that it was wrong for mustard to call him autisitc. This post was rightfully -fragged. I don't condone that, it was rude and unnecessary.

You still ignored the mastercoms example, though. Just because mustard was cruel doesn't mean that he didn't have an attitude and was completely out of his depth.

[quote=Tynnyri]Nothing I said made 6s bad or in need of a change in my mind, and I never as much as implied it did. [/quote]
This entire thread is about changing the most fundamental trait of 6s other than the number of players!

[quote=Tynnyri]
Might have something to do with the person in the mirror loudly jumping into a space, telling others' they are dumb and intellectually arrogant for disagreeing with him, and that means they must be automatically wrong.
[/quote]

okay man. Look, to bring back up your triathlon example, you've essentially joined a facebook page for people who run 10ks, asked why we don't run triathlons, and asserted that "[10ks] are not a natural competitive development," and that our "[tracks and events] are weirdly specific." It's pretty natural for us to say "look man, it's not that deep, I just want to run. And I used to bike more, but I personally get more satisfaction and physical results by doing this."

I really want to hammer home that in the second response to this thread, Seinfeld said that this game was old enough to enlist and that you're not the first person to propose class limit one. It's a really old idea that many of us, as well as many highlander or casual players, have played before. We found it really found stale and not that fun. That's kinda the end of it! You said to us, "6s should have one class limit" and we said, "we tried that, it wasn't good," and then we talked in circles for five pages. I'm sure if you found a HL discord group, posted the same thing but argued that they should play 6v6 class limit one instead of 9v9 class limit one, things would go basically the same as they went here.
132
#132
1 Frags +
HerpTimplunkIt is simply another case of Eastern European syndrome I fear.This guy is from Finland, US and Russia simultaneously, and his english is better than 99% of Eastern Europeans, I wouldn't be so sure

American and Russian? Explains why he shows the worst traits of both nationalities

[quote=HerpTim][quote=plunk]It is simply another case of Eastern European syndrome I fear.[/quote]
This guy is from Finland, US and Russia simultaneously, and his english is better than 99% of Eastern Europeans, I wouldn't be so sure[/quote]
American and Russian? Explains why he shows the worst traits of both nationalities
133
#133
22 Frags +

this guy is 10x more obvious troll than aimisadick why are people still responding seriously

this guy is 10x more obvious troll than aimisadick why are people still responding seriously
134
#134
9 Frags +
TynnyriSeinfeldheavy can be played by an armless toddler
I'll focus on the main part of your reply: You are defending the current arbitrarily constructed meta by pointing out that it has not been constructed arbitrarily at all: Instead, it is intended to maximise skill expression. That is a very interesting idea.

Skill expression in 6v6

I do agree that TF2 classes do not have balanced skill expression: Classes like Demoman, Pyro, Soldier, Scout, and Spy all have deep and unique skill expression in their weapons and movement, while classes like Medic, Heavy, Sniper and Engineer do not have much else than the ability to shoot and basic movement. (Medic and Engineer both even have a form of autoaim)

So then, why would there be an exception for Medic? Medic is the most important class in the game, but far from the most skill expressive. Without medics, lot of stalemates would never even happen. After all, you are less punished from taking damage when you have a medic in your team. Wouldn't that be a source of negative skill expression? Medic makes the game easier, and patches your mistakes.

But that leaves us back in a circle: Even when looked at the lens of skill expression, the ruleset is still arbitrary and seems to exist just to enforce the current meta, even at the cost of some skill expression

Weaknesses as skill expression

You also mentioned that Pyro has weaknesses that Soldier doesn't have, and therefore it makes no sense to switch to Pyro. And that's a perfect explanation for why 6v6 games tend to slow down: As you said, the current arbitrarily chosen meta (2 scouts, 2 soldiers) revolves around the fact that Soldier and Scout have very few weaknesses to exploit.

6v6 has an unique issue of the game slowing the down upon the slightest change. But in retrospect, that might make perfect sense: Allowing 2 extra strong classes with few exploitable weaknesses decreases the importance of individual mistakes across the board: Punishing Soldier's mistakes when he can easily reposition himself is harder compared to punishing Pyro's or Heavy's mistakes, when they can't. Your explanation of weaknesses gives an eloquent explanation to the source of stalemates, giving light to how stalemates might be solved: By weakening team compositions.

Your response has been very enlightening. Class' exploitable weaknesses are a great way to enforce skill expression. Kind of like Highlander, Spy: The weakest class - But that's what makes a good spy player so important, to be able to turn a low kill count into something more.

are you an ai trained off of r/tf2 posts

[quote=Tynnyri][quote=Seinfeld]heavy can be played by an armless toddler[/quote]

I'll focus on the main part of your reply: You are defending the current arbitrarily constructed meta by pointing out that it has not been constructed arbitrarily at all: Instead, it is intended to maximise skill expression. That is a [b]very interesting[/b] idea.

[h]Skill expression in 6v6[/h]

I do agree that TF2 classes do not have balanced skill expression: Classes like Demoman, Pyro, Soldier, Scout, and Spy all have deep and unique skill expression in their weapons and movement, while classes like Medic, Heavy, Sniper and Engineer do not have much else than the ability to shoot and basic movement. (Medic and Engineer both even have a form of autoaim)

So then, why would there be an exception for Medic? Medic is the most important class in the game, but far from the most skill expressive. Without medics, lot of stalemates would never even happen. After all, you are less punished from taking damage when you have a medic in your team. Wouldn't that be a source of negative skill expression? Medic makes the game easier, and patches your mistakes.

But that leaves us back in a circle: Even when looked at the lens of skill expression, the ruleset is still arbitrary and seems to exist just to enforce the current meta, even at the cost of some skill expression

[h]Weaknesses as skill expression[/h]

You also mentioned that Pyro has weaknesses that Soldier doesn't have, and therefore it makes no sense to switch to Pyro. And that's a perfect explanation for why 6v6 games tend to slow down: As you said, the current arbitrarily chosen meta (2 scouts, 2 soldiers) revolves around the fact that Soldier and Scout have very few weaknesses to exploit.

6v6 has an unique issue of the game slowing the down upon the slightest change. But in retrospect, that might make perfect sense: Allowing 2 extra strong classes with few exploitable weaknesses decreases the importance of individual mistakes across the board: Punishing Soldier's mistakes when he can easily reposition himself is harder compared to punishing Pyro's or Heavy's mistakes, when they can't. Your explanation of weaknesses gives an eloquent explanation to the source of stalemates, giving light to how stalemates might be solved: By weakening team compositions.

Your response has been very enlightening. Class' exploitable weaknesses are a great way to enforce skill expression. Kind of like Highlander, Spy: The weakest class - But that's what makes a good spy player so important, to be able to turn a low kill count into something more.[/quote]

are you an ai trained off of r/tf2 posts
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