my dpm is higher as pocket but 90% of pushing is harder cause ur too slow!

it cool

solemn vow
Still need time to get used to medics calling hp. I was one of the earlier people (I think) supporting a solemn vow unban. Still don't know how to feel about seeing uber%.
So far pleased to see Solemn Vow's not (too) broken. It being paired with the scout nerf probably helped because seeing you have a 10-20% ad would've been more impactful if we were still pushing at scout pace.
I've seen a couple of high level NA players complain about it, but afaik they didn't nerf scout speed yet in RGL. Haven't really followed what some of the Prem teams think of it so far but let's hope this thread catches me up

medic scout speed
I think I actually don't like the scout speed nerf. I played the game plenty both with and without it before the plug-in was made. I can probably get used to it again though I slightly prefer having medic w scout speed after all these years. I'll still go with whatever the community decides to do tho. I'm not bothered if it's the new way forward

winger
I never used winger scripts so the winger nerf didn't affect me much, but I now sometimes miss the timing when I'm in a hurry. Once or twice per game I'll just jump into a wall. I could still get used to the timing if I try to so its not a big complaint. I've been switching back and forth between winger and stock for years so if I don't get used to it I'll just stick to stock

gunboats
I'm all for soldiers being buffed

(Also I should note I'm not on a team this season. I'm playing a lot of mixes w the plug-ins so things might be different in a more serious setting)

"I'm honestly still not a fan of Gunboats always applying, I feel like it sometimes gets Soldiers out of hairy situations (like a bomb into 3+ people) where they don't really need that. Remove it to allow for "more skillful positioning" : )"

If a soldier survives bombing into a group of people multiple times scot-free then its not the gunboats fault.

Ok so after playing a few weeks of scrims on this plugin as medic here are my thoughts on how it affects the gameplay and the scene (making sure that im making distinguishes between these two):

I definitely have a fresh perspective coming into this because I never mained med whilst the speed buff was being used, apart from the occasional pug or so but the impression ive gotten from the lack of scout speed is that while yes, running away from mids is harder but soldiers saccing onto medics heads hasnt changed at all, in fact most of the game hasnt changed except that if you’re rolling a team 5-0, it will be slower because your medic is running after the team trying to get onto people during transitions.

This also leads into pushing on equal ubers when you get 1-2 picks; what we experienced against alot of teams was our team putting up loads of pressure on teams to the point where id have no one to heal and we ”accidentally” would find ourselves having disadd and push into ubers because wed force the enemy medic into a more passive position with a scout to build. So playing passive definitely gets somewhat rewarded if the other team isnt that well adjusted to the new pace, which is slower.

The pace of the game is slower. That’s just a matter of fact. When a medic force would usually take you from your second to their last, now it usually rewards you on average 1 or sometimes 2 CPs. To summarize me and my teammates thoughts on this; The change didn’t seem to add much more ”fun” to the game and the reward of scouts getting nerfed comes with the cost of the overall pace of the game being slower.

Going into how this affects the scene, I don’t think it’s healthy to isolate rulesets so that they differ even more between regions. Like we already have people complain about maps like Reckoner or Metalworks being less played in their respective regions. I know people might be getting less hopeful about LANs because of corona but I definitely wouldnt want to risk an NA, AU or AS team dodging an EU LAN because theyd have to bootcamp a completely different way the game is played for a month beforehand.

If I were to predict the future I’d assume that they would reinstate the original ruleset for the next EU LAN so this kind of feels like a worthless experimental season but the changes werent controversial enough for anyone to bother making another thread begging admins to change their minds. Games just slower and it affects the international scene negatively imo.

Is the "International Scene" for TF2 even that important? It's maybe one or two teams from a different region at maybe one or two LANs a year. It seems to be that it'd be more important that players in each region are happy with the rulesets/plugins/formats of their region than deciding against a change because it'll negatively affect something that barely happens and is mostly an annual novelty.

So many people in this community play for the sake of playing or spectating live intercontinental LANs and the chance of seeing different regions clash. So yes I think most people deem it important.

Does gunboats always apply mean that you have to jump for it to apply?

no

Winger
As a serial winger abuser myself I like the change because I think it was overpowered.
3 good things about it:

DM nerf - Scouts have to commit to having the winger out in order to utilize it. When doding rockets & stickies you could just quickswitch and jump over any stickies on the floor & rocket splash, whereas now you need to hit shots and dodge properly

Positioning - Scouts can no longer brainlessly drop off highground to chase frags, because in most situations it will take them longer to get back up, and in the meantime your opponents could take highground control off you

No more free positioning - Taking out the winger makes you more vulnerable while going up to highground because you have to spend more time switching. Not a big difference but like how sollies & demomen sac hp, and FaN sacrifices damage & a shot, the winger now sacrifices combat time for movement.

Med scout speed
Personally as it is right now I think the game is a bit slower. However, I'm actually not convinced that it's because of the speed change - it's still possible people just haven't adapted to it still.

Imo, medics shouldn't always have access to scout speed. Both because it makes his escapes too consistent and reliance on scout too heavy. I know it sounds stupid but it would cool to have an unlock that allows you to dash at scout speed for like 8 seconds (built by walking or something). This would still allow medics to participate in deep ubers and also punish medics who rely on it too much. In the absence of this imaginary item I support reverting though.

Solemn vow
imo it's probably an ok sidegrade, but in situations where you getting 25% uber could save you the round it's still more worth it imo, especially in lower divisions as it's both easier to melee people and also harder to focus fire weak players.

Gunboats always apply
- I don't really love the change honestly. I think sollies have too much hp and get away with stupid shit now. However, I also think that how gunboats used to work was fucking ridiculous. We should try and find a reasonable middle ground.

Coming from the perspective of a soldier with frankly tragic rockets-

Winger

I really like this nerf. It makes being able to contest a scout on height much less 1 sided, the scout has to make the decision, do they keep height and play in a limited area, or do they drop off to consolidate dodging a projectile. Previously they could pretty much play where they want, then retake good pos immediately after the contest. With the nerf their team may be punished more by the scout playing to essentially win a single fight while protecting their health, and ending up in a worse pos.

Gunboats always apply

Even as a soldier main, i don't like this change. I think it's a good idea to reduce self damage, but somewhere in the middle ground between gunboats/non gunboats would be more ideal, maybe 40ish self damage. I feel like it currently rewards being able to get in very close and smash directs in peoples faces far more than timing and positioning from a soldier. A benefit of scout becoming so powerful is that soldiers became smarter, and this takes away from some of that to just jump at peoples faces. With a smaller reduction, I'd hope you still avoid turning a corner, point blanking a scout, and dying to a meatshot, but it would add more variety to soldier positioning and bombs.

I quite enjoy scrappy soldier vs soldier fights at the edge of a team fight in weird spots (not mge style) where you have to time surfs, self damage off each other, reloads etc. to try and win the fight. Now I feel those fights are much more 2d in the sense of aim, and dodging.

Med Scout Speed

I didn't play 6v6 before this change, but I'm not opposed to it. I feel like a lot teams passive holds haven't really changed, e.g. process mid, med leaving IT, but pushing chokes is pretty different. Generally pushing is a lot slower, when I used to try and make space as a soldier, I'd be be getting a bow relatively quickly after busting in. Now it feels a little more difficult to bring the medic in through spam and shots to get my reheal, because all the players holding that choke can still leave just as quickly as before. It also feels like I encounter more sacs when walking into teams on an ad, because they know we can't go as quickly and they're gonna spawn up before the next push.

Big difference though, is when it comes to trades. On stalemates when teams bring their team and heals really close to help pressure with a sac or take eyes or something, I feel like taking a solo into it opens a lot more doorways. I think the enemy medic can't milk as hard, and they have to multi even more. Even though my medic can't be run out with a scout, just the damage, then space creating with a deep jump right at the end creates a much better opportunity for non uber repushes than with the medic speed buff. It also gives rise to the potential of allowing your medic to die, and eat the focus post trade, in return for getting everybody else on your team into the fight with a big health advantage.

To conclude, I think it slows the game down when pushing with an ad, and makes it harder to take multiple points, but I think it rewards really well organised teams in stalemates who can trade effectively, and make good fast decisions when teams take worse positioning while looking to break the stalemate.

I enjoy the game with and without the medic speed buff!

Winger
As someone that used the Winger for alternate flank routes, this plugin just made it way worse than the default pistol. That roughly 1-2 seconds it adds to get anywhere is just not worth giving up all the firepower the stock pistol offers. From my experience playing Soldier, it barely ever was a problem except in one situation: you and the scout are low HP and he starts Winger jumping backwards while shooting you, which is still possible by the way. I think just make it do no damage at all. To stop the people abusing scripts, just make the swap back to other weapons slower instead, if that is even possible.

Gunboats always apply
I think this plugin is fine, but it definitely needs some adjusting. Before it was scouts torpedoing into soldiers so they kill themselves - now it's Soldiers going kamikaze mode, jumping onto people and point blanking them.

Med scout speed
It's too early to say anything about the flow of the game. Teams are inconsistent and still trying out a lot of stuff. The real test is W1 and W2. People will play more carefully in officials and that will show us how much the pace of the game has changed. Apart from that, it did nerf pocket scouts and focussed spam on doors is more powerful now because the medic can't walk in at mach 10. I don't mind this plugin at all, but I have to agree with klassy. I feel like playing a different TF2 than other regions doesn't makes sense long term, even if an international LAN is unlikely.

I think klassy's post summarises most of my thoughts, I just have a few to add from a soldier/maincallers perspective.

old patch is fast medics
new patch is slow medics

Firstly looking at the change from a soldier main perspective. I think the gunboats buff is insanely powerful for soldier. Our team has scrimmed with the plugin for a month, soldier feels unbelievably easy/easier to play. Removing the option for scouts to run inside you so that you take 80-100 self dmg means you should never lose a 1v1 in a small area. And even if you are losing a 1v1 you can just leave as the scout cant just run into you as you're leaving anymore. I am really against the opinion that soldier is/used to be a "weak" class. You have so much impact on the game as soldier (in both the old and new patch). I believe people complained way too much about soldier being useless when they were actually just misplaying situations, or maybe its because people judge their performance based on their k/d. Now adding the med speed change just makes this patch an ultra buff to soldier. I am not against ingame changes and think its very valuable to try new rulesets/plugins. However as klassy already said this change basically just decreases the pace of the game whilst also buffing soldier.

Now looking from a maincallers perspective. If you're the maincaller for your team, you will have had to completely change your style of calling over the past month (again I am not against plugin changes forcing maincallers to adapt). On the old patch in a even situation many very aggressive plays were reasonably safe (assuming both team have uber). However on the new patch it feels like you have to call in a much more controlled/safe style where you cannot take the risks you used to be able to. This limits your options a lot and therefore makes the pace of the game slower. When you have ad you cannot extend it anywhere near as much as you used to be able to, which makes you settle for map control which again slows the game down. One change that is very nice as a maincaller is that the mid fights are more important than they used to be. In my opinion tf2 has always been a game about midfights and this patch makes it even more prominent, I like this change as it rewards your team for coordinated team fights and instinctive plays.

My biggest issue with EU playing on the new patch is that we're playing on a different patch to everyone else who plays the game. I think the smaller plugin changes such as the no ramp bug plugin and others are fine as they're just quality of life improvements, but the med speed completely changes how EU and the rest of the world play the game. Of course my opinion is biased as I am someone who wants to play/compete at intercontinental lans and maybe this issue isnt as relevant to the avg comp player.

I believe to best solution for EU/ETF2L is a patch where the quality of life plugins are added but the med speed is reverted to the old patch. In my eyes soldier has been buffed twice in the new patch. Once because of the gunboats plugin and once because of the med speed change. Going back to the fast medic patch is essentially a trade off between removing a 2nd buff to soldier but making the game faster and more aggressive. I think this proposed patch is what ETF2L should change to in the future (s38). This patch would solve the issue of intercontinental lans as these quality of life changes wont change the macro teamplay of the game. When a lan happens no ones going to complain whether you always slide on a ramp or not. I still think s37 should be played on the current ETF2L patch as it would be too late/confusing to change the ruleset again.

I do still enjoy the game on the new patch but I think the overall teamplay is more skilled and fast paced on the old patch.

could you elaborate on this? what kind of thing would you call before and what options do you feel you're forced to now

Ngl as a new player, I don't mind playing this season with this patch. I thought I would receive the "old ways" of playing tf2, but like people have posted before the meta hasn't realyl changed - just medic is moving slower.

Honestly, idc what plugins are enabled pls I just want to play my first season

Winger change- Good. I don't know anyone who disagrees with this change.---KEEP

Gunboats- I understand the reason for the change but the amount of times I now see soldiers hiding round a corner and just nuking everything is insane. So I think a rebalance is in order.---CHANGE

Med scout speed- I understand how it can change gameplay, but overall during scrims it hasn't changed it enough for me to say it's good or bad so I think keeping it the same as other leagues is the best thing to do in future.---REMOVE

Gonna be my thoughts, maybe someone cares maybe not. Quick points are:

• Medic is overall easier without scout speed.
  
• Winger and solemn vow are overpowered. Disgustingly strong and should be banned.
  
• QOL changes are insanely good.
  
• Gunboats change makes soldier incredibly strong. In simple terms, a bombing soldier has an extra 50-100 health, as a raw stat buff, that is insane. Stronger than scout by miles, Basically throwing if you don't always run 2.
  
• Overall game is faster in some areas and slower in others. Exactly how everyone thought it would be. I still don't know if this meta is "healthier" or not. I'm not as much of a fan though.

Medic speed change made the game miles easier for medic. Positioning is braindead, since it relies entirely on where your team is standing. If they are in the wrong spots, you get punished for it and there is nothing you can do. This was pretty much the only big change to medic. Keeping up with your team is the same as before, building uber is same as before, healing in pushes is harder but that hardly happens so only real new skill medics would need is irrelevant. I know a lot of people are annoyed that the medic is slow in pushing, but that's just a problem in the medic not knowing how to play the game instinctively. This would still be a problem with scout speed as well. You just don't see it as much as people blame the pocket scout instead of the medic.

Winger and solemn vow still busted. Both should be banned. There is no such thing as faking health anymore. There is no such thing as faking uber anymore. If people do not listen to their medic telling them that the enemy is 10 health and that they are only 60% uber then that team is playing itself and they deserve to lose. Winger, free high ground for scouts, still disgustingly strong.

Shooting at point blank range and arrowing someone right in front of you is a godsend and should just be how the game was to begin with. If I play on a non-competitive server without that plugin, it pisses me off to no end. Consider it a bigger difference than a 144hz monitor user using 60hz for non-medic mains. You don't notice it when it's there, but when you go back, you know what you are missing.

Soldier is the strongest class in the game by miles. You take almost no damage at all shooting someone right next to you. I don't think taking 100 self damage is fair, I also don't think taking 15 is fair. Along with scouts having fewer buffs because the medic can't keep up with them in fights as easily, this enables soldiers to dictate the flow of fights way more than they used to, and that is literally what they do in 6s. Soldier dictates the tempo of a fight, making it fast or slow by bombing or spamming. Now, the threat of a soldier bomb does more than just acquire brain space of a pocket scout. It has to take his full focus to even have a chance of denying him. The soldier doesn't even need to bomb, he can do other shit in that time whilst the scout has to be focused on a potential threat. It's actually insane how good soldier is.

Game is exactly how everyone thought it would be without medic scout speed. Mids matter more, and rolling rounds is easier. Stalemates are harder to break because uber trading is less viable. Acting on small positional/health advantages and doing aggressive plays is near impossible. The unforeseen consequences of the patch are soldier being overpowered. Game has a lot less strategy at a high level since soldiers are so overtuned, any deeper mid strats are irrelevant as the correct gameplay is incredibly one dimensional.

If soldier wasn't over buffed, would this meta be healthier? I don't know. Is the game better when mids matter more? Personally I don't think so, I don't think mids being incredibly important matters. I prefer it when they aren't basically a free round 70% the time, and you can fight around other points of the map more often, pulling out more strategies, and deeper strategies with how to play around the slight difference in terrain each team has whilst holding a point in a stalemate. Basically, if you had two equally skilled teams, every mid fight is a 50-50 coin toss, however, each mid-second or second-last stalemate isn't a 50-50. There are differences in spawn timers, terrain, ammo/health pack availability that tilt the odds slightly to one side. I'm a fan of making that 51-49 odd fight flip substantially towards me using every little tool available.

However, others disagree, such as papi saying that he thinks the game should revolve around mids. A coordinated teamfight where both teams have equal footing before it begins, and each advantage gained isn't by the map itself, but rather individual and team skill. Where one team being better than the other has a 70% chance of winning, and how will the 30% chance team play to come back and actually put up a fight? Will it be up to execution, or will there be some crazy mid strats to help tilt their odds? This is the point of the whole patch, to discuss this one point. This is how the game would actually change. Making mids matter more for the tradeoff that aggressive plays/strategies in stalemates are much more risky and rarer to see.

For the longest time, when the solemn vow was banned, I thought you had to pull it out to see player health and ubers. I think that needing to switch to the weapon itself is all that's needed to balance it. Atm it's literally no risk for high reward, which is just dumb.

wondering if soldier being buffed makes koth more fun to play, any opinions?

The skill is in staying close as long as possible and still make it out alive.
As a demoman I feel that when I bomb with ubers I have more chances of catching opponents before they escape, which is nice.
Not sure it matters much for stalemates : enemy medic can't milk as long by running away, your medic can't go as deep, it feels okay.

For solemn vow i would have to watch a prem medic vod because from my perspective medics do not spend much time in sight line of each other

In any case, a change of pace in the rather stale 6s meta is welcome

i'm fine with the scout nerf personally though i think i actually had more fun with it, when people say it would force medics to have better positioning they more meant understand when to leave fights better or have better survivability. what you said about medics not being able to survive mid fights, in my opinion, is a perfect example, back in the day you'd see someone like shade survive all kinds of mids because he'd in advance understand if a mid is worth staying in or not. i think it's way too little time to judge medics though. for instance, before we'd do rollouts with a pocket waiting for medic a little further back and he'd walk with the med to mid, now i often see people not understanding this and instead scouts waiting for a med. people just haven't begun making changes fast enough.
also i really disagree with the winger comment, i went from 24/7 using winger to literally never touching winger unless it's a pub, the time it takes to take it out makes it literally useless in a fight, it's only useful as a utility outside of a fight, in which case you'd be better off using a pistol. though that's my view on it ofc! :)
also solemn vow should be banned for being blatantly op and taking skill out of fights, no way to fake health anymore which is just stupid