The top part is the problem I have with plugins :P Not really playing tf2 if u can tweak things so massively. Yea u can say 6v6 tf2 isnt really tf2 either (wrong) because of whitelists, fixed/pro versions of maps etc, but I just find this a step too far.

There's a lot of variable settings that leagues make use of and I don't see complaints about it?

None of these videos are necessarilly a result of the larger hitbox, the difference is less than 5 units, you wouldn't be able to notice it. Also according to this video it doesn't seem like the iron bomber size difference is intentional so you could totally call this a bug and just fix it with a plugin.

How can changing one stat on a weapon be more massive than banning the weapon entirely? Plugin just makes IB hitbox same as stock, but the ban removes slow rollers mechanic as well, and I don't see as many people having problems with that as with the hitbox. If anything, seeing every demo switch to stock because of IB ban would make the game feel less like tf2.

Winger plugin was used on etf2l for however many seasons now, it doesn't fix any bugs, nobody made any petitions asking for it to be added, it's literally a balance patch for one weapon. There was zero controversy, I didn't hear a single person say that it's bad for the game somehow. A plugin made the game ever so slightly better, so I don't see how "whitelists are fine, but using plugins is a bit too far" argument has any ground. And at this point I trust twiikuu (and comp community as a whole) to make balance changes for tf2 many times more than anyone sitting at valve right now.

There was a similar discussion of IB ban about a year ago and nothing came out of it (no bans or plugins adopted). I hope this time admins take initiative to actually figure out what solution is better instead of sweeping the problem under the rug for another year.

The winger thing also could ahve been fixed with a ban :P Im willing to die on this hill brother. if IB gets fixed you cant meaningfully practise with the same gun u would use on a 6s server in pubs/mge/dm unless they all run that plugin too. This isnt the only issue with it but its not free in the slightest. On top of all this, and i dont know how to put it in a less confrontational way, the people making these decisions have very half baked ideas on the game (remember dat season we played with no scout speed cause ppl thought it would be a good idea?) I still think it was ok to play it in a season just to be able to prove its crap (and if it were good then who cares what i thought going into it, at least game is more fun now).

tldr: i dont trust u motherfuckers wit this much power!

Obviously, can't do anything about pubs (do you really practice in pubs?), but for MGE and DM, this is something that can be fixed, if it's not already fixed, talk to the owners.
This is the only point you manage to make in all of this post.

This sentence especially sucks considering you hardly manage to put into words what you actually think. I don't deny that you have more experience and understanding of the game, but extracting any of that through your posts is literally impossible, they critically lack any substance. That was also the case when giving feedback about the medic attach speed tests/season!

No hard feelings, but you can do better.

i did some rough testing about the size of the hitbox and the numbers i got was the iron bomber gives you a 3-4% wider hitbox in terms of angle from around medium range. honestly i think the real reason you hit more with the iron bomber is that its much harder to see the projectiles so theyre a lot harder to dodge

Sorry 3% is a real measurable difference and is actually the only reason scouts ever die to the iron bomber so it needs to be banned.

also lowkey the straighter arc thing as well
it's a lot of really small bonus that end up making it like 10-15% better overall not just when it comes to hitting things

ban iron bomber, cripple french demomen. It Is Time.

something that i also think gets overlooked is that the z axis is extended as well, meaning that its hitbox would connect sooner than a regular pipe, making it harder to dodge to some degree

pipes move faster than 1200 hammer units per second or 18.2 units per tick
if its 4 hammer units longer than the grenade launcher (2 hammer units longer in the direction of the enemy) that means it has an 11% chance to save 0.01 seconds to impact

https://youtu.be/Ucz9eV7Eh0s

You used the wrong tick length. Two different wrong ones, actually.
Ticks are exactly 15ms (=66.66666... ticks/s) so it's exactly 18 units per tick.
Also, since the 11.11% (2/18) chance is for the projectile to arrive 1 tick sooner it's 0.015 seconds, not 0.01.

I think people are misunderstanding how much the pipe size difference comes into effect considering most of the pipes shot at a player hit the edge of the hit box since the player being shot at is most likely trying to dodge the pipe. So the 3-4% wider hit box as stated by starkie (post #67) comes into effect A LOT more than just 3-4% of the time.

why not just try the plugin out in the next preseason if it is happening

I don't have a massive math brain but I have a hard time considering those funny equations, I'm not seeing complicated integrals anywhere, which I would expect considering the game simulation happens over time, and in 3D.
It feels like an easy way to either make it seem like the difference is small because the resulting number is small, or the difference is huge because number is huge.
Even the difference in volume is not properly evocative if you forget/don't know how volumes scale.

If you really cared to have a good measurement, I think Pheaa's got the right idea about it: "I would love for someone to create a plugin that checks if an iron bomber pipe that hit would have hit if it had the stock hitbox."
However, you could only easily find which default-sized pipes would have collided if they were IB-sized, so either with the resize feature already enabled, or by checking non-IB pipes (which may skew your data, as people mention that IB pipes are harder to spot mid-air, so harder to dodge). This is potentially a resource hog.
You could find the opposite if you managed to simulate the game as if IB-sized pipes were actually default-sized, and check whether they would still collide over their lifespan. This is pretty much only feasible as post-processing analysis of demos, and a huge amount of work.

At this point though, it feels like we're doing a lot to find whether a bugfix should be applied or not, is this the right criteria for inclusion?

Ye true i havent been that helpful in this thread so maybe it is a bit dastardly of me to say I don't think others have the capability to make the judgement on how to edit the game, but that wasn't even rly aimed at u (in my eyes ur just the dude who makes da plugin, and i mean that in a respectful way not a minimising way, i truly appreciate what u do and have done for da community with plugins n stuff).

But idk on the forums u see shit people come up with like "what if we did an inbetween hitbox for pipes between iron bomber and stock and run it thru a plugin!" like man cmon i wna play tf2 not randomdiv2playerfortress2. And for what its worth i think the point about keeping the game as true as possible to vanilla is more important than u may give it credit for. Yes i understand it may seem arbitrary to draw the line at plugins after u run custom maps and ban a bunch of weapons, but i still think there's an important distinction.

Also my posts about the med speed stuff were fine imo, i put a lot more effort into those than this, but thats whateva since that shits all over :P

the point was to prove its irrelevant but if you really want to be anal pipes move 1216 units per second (according to google) so it is 18.2 per tick

i dont have any data to back this up but in my experience if youre getting hit by a pipe its more likely going near the middle and the ones that barely hit you are much rarer

Let's consider solely the cases in which you see an IB pipe coming, maybe you manage to dodge a little, it looks like it might not hit you but does anyways, I imagine that's what is inducing frustration in players.
Obviously, the solution here is to keep your tilt in check, but because the cat is out of the bag and everyone knows that the IB pipes are bugged, it's much harder to rationalize those situations.

fair fair

The point is a bit undermined if the math is wrong in 3 places and you just put in whichever numbers you like, even if the end result is somewhere in the right ballpark.
And if you want to be really anal pipes move 1216.6666... HU/s or 18.25 per tick

Regarding the probability of hits you'd probably have to look at either the area of the hitbox and likelihood of intersection (independent of distance) or the maximum angular deviation that still hits (depends on distance), but I don't care enough to do the math.

I have a small brain but throwing my 2 cents into this.
I think a contributing factor to all of this is the projectile collision hitbox is dependant on the shooter's map orientation so shooting from the crosssection of the hitbox leads to a larger collision area.
In my opinion, all projectiles are BS due to this

This may be outdated I have no idea if tf2 still works this way or not.

If I'm wrong doesn't matter, bombe bad

i think the main problem with more "controversial" plugins like this one - which was brought up during the med-speed-buff discussions - is that increased differences between the tf2 thats being played in eu/na/au/as i think is damaging to the game. A problem that was brought up with these types of plugins in the last thread was also that we're just making it harder for teams from different regions to adjust to different rulesets in the case of international lans. EU and NA players already complain about 30 min timer vs 2 half system and reckoner and bagel etc etc.

Maybe you'll be able to somehow come to an agreement that every region implements twiikuus plugin (looking at the global whitelist discussions a few years prior i doubt this will happen) but with RGL actually seeing some type of growth in prizepool, sponsors(?) and LAN playoffs now, i think the chance of NA using these kinds of plugins decreases.

I think if anything IB should be banned over being nerfed with plugins and perhaps the chance of other regions doing it will increase.

Pretty sure that random div 2 players also take part in deciding what map pool and whitelist should be in all divs, and that admins are capable of taking separate feedback from prem players into account. But I agree that it's better to balance the game around the highest level of competition, even if something doesn't seemingly appeal to the majority of playerbase.

This is actually the reason why I prefer plugins to weapon bans, to keep as many vanilla mechanics in the game as possible. The plugin precisely removes one problematic upside of IB, but the ban cuts out both of its mechanics (hitbox + rollers) from the game, so I don't see how bans make the game more "vanilla" (unless by vanilla you mean 2011 tf2 without unlocks or something). Of course, I don't want to see etf2l turn into creators.tf with 100 new custom weapons, but if a plugin simply refines the game that we're already playing, then I can only welcome it.

You're comparing a change in the game that does not affect conscious decision making (you're still aiming and dodging pipes the same way) and the settings that rule the entire gameplay flow (win conditions).
Can you see that the first one is pretty much not making a difference?

Also, if this was so important, would have whitelists diverged? I believe there was a point in which every league used the global whitelist.

All major leagues already use and require the plugin.

What do you mean by "All major leagues already use and require the plugin"? I'm talking about the supposed IB nerf which isn't in use right now right?

I do think there is a difference between a quality of life fixes (rampbugs for example) to actually nerfing things in the game (iron bomber hitbox and medic speed) and it's just a matter of what mainly RGL will agree to implement and I think the chance of NA implementing game changing plugins versus simply banning something is more slim and I think that's a factor that should be taken into account when discussing plugins like these.

The IB fix ( ;) ) is a feature of the plugin. The plugin, which is a collection of features, is already required by all major leagues, and they don't all make use of the same features.

I say stuff like this and am ridiculed. I say that if people really wanted to perfect the game they would focus on things like orientation on maps to get a 1.4:1 ratio on hitbox size when they take shots.

Ofc I know this isn't how fights work in the game as others have told me when I've argued them, but none have said why, The real reason why this sort of thing is irrelevant is because at the moment the shot is shot, the hitbox is the same orientation for the target and the attacker. So as long as the target is actually aware, the attacker is at an equal disadvantage. No real advantage in an equal skill matchup,

Overall with ironbomber, it just doesn't feel fair. You get hit before it hits you in game because the hitbox is 2x in every direction (or something like that). So the forward/back Z axis mulitplier makes you get hit before the model actually hits you. Fix the model and i guarantee noone would complain. Or maybe idiot pubbers who still think stickies are better than pipes would idk. I think ironbomber is fine it just feels bad to play vs and feels cheap to play with ngl.

d

Plugin to make all the hitboxes stock size is the best option. IB will still be the better choice in most cases because your missed shots often still hit for damage. I just like my long spam and rollers that chase people.