I decided to make this thread to see the communities ideas on what their ideal pug system would look like.
The other reason is that I've heard many frustrated players -- specifically here in NA -- that their hasn't been an ideal hub for 6s PUGs -- for both low, mid, and/or high division players alike.
While popular in-house pugs have been on the rise, such as PugHub -- which is open up for players between AM-INV -- I don't believe its what players are 'essentially' looking for.
I believe what players want is "automation". Essentially, players want to be able to add up with the convince of a button -- something similar to faceit.
To begin, this pug site/system would have (in no particular order):
- The convenience of choosing your class -- something similar to RGL PUGs.
- A vote for where the server is located; players shouldn't be inhibited to a certain location and be able to balance ping. (West Coast bias)
- If servers are limited, players should be able to host a PUG on their own server, something similar to TF2center -- unless ELO / Rank MM is involved
- This pug site/system should have both rank and unranked MM PUGs.
4.1. unranked will perhaps work as a faceit/in-house pug system where two of the 12 will be chosen as medic but will receive a voucher to be able to player their combat class for the next pug.
4.2. Rank should be divided into three or four divisions. HIGH [ INV/ADV(?)] / MID [ADV-IM] / OPEN [IM/AM/NC] / NEWCOMER
- The pug picking system should go as the following: 1 (A) --> 1 (B) --> 1 (A) --> 1 (B) --> 1 (A) --> 2 (B) --> 2 (A) --> 1 (B)
- Balancing system (unranked only?)
- Report/behavior System
7.1. Players can report players for misbehavior/misconduct. For the opposite, players can 'appraise' another player, highly regarded by their skill or communication.
7.1.2. Players appraised would get specifically recommendations to captains choosing players -- both unranked and ranked
- Global chat (?)
8.1. [ Mixed feelings as its requires someone to moderate chat ]
- Maps are pick/bans until 2 maps are left; all players should be able to vote which map they want to play. If votes are split, flip a coin system.
- Mandatory voice-chat, specifically on discord; mumble as an alternative.
10.1. [mixed opinions on mumble as I've seen past streams were the voice-chat gets raided easily]
Wish I can say more, but nothing else at my mind at the moment. Will edit more if I have any.
Apologies again if some seem out of order, vague, or just not further discussed. These, to emphasized, are far from the realm of reality and are instead fantasied expectations on what this theoretical site would have.
I decided to make this thread to see the communities ideas on what their ideal pug system would look like.
The other reason is that I've heard many frustrated players -- specifically here in NA -- that their hasn't been an ideal hub for 6s PUGs -- for both low, mid, and/or high division players alike.
While popular in-house pugs have been on the rise, such as PugHub -- which is open up for players between AM-INV -- I don't believe its what players are 'essentially' looking for.
I believe what players want is "automation". Essentially, players want to be able to add up with the convince of a button -- something similar to faceit.
To begin, this pug site/system would have (in no particular order):
[olist]
[*] The convenience of choosing your class -- something similar to RGL PUGs.
[*] A vote for where the server is located; players shouldn't be inhibited to a certain location and be able to balance ping. (West Coast bias)
[*] If servers are limited, players should be able to host a PUG on their own server, something similar to TF2center -- unless ELO / Rank MM is involved
[*] This pug site/system should have both rank and unranked MM PUGs.
4.1. unranked will perhaps work as a faceit/in-house pug system where two of the 12 will be chosen as medic but will receive a voucher to be able to player their combat class for the next pug.
4.2. Rank should be divided into three or four divisions. HIGH [ INV/ADV(?)] / MID [ADV-IM] / OPEN [IM/AM/NC] / NEWCOMER
[*] The pug picking system should go as the following: 1 (A) --> 1 (B) --> 1 (A) --> 1 (B) --> 1 (A) --> 2 (B) --> 2 (A) --> 1 (B)
[*] Balancing system (unranked only?)
[*] Report/behavior System
7.1. Players can report players for misbehavior/misconduct. For the opposite, players can 'appraise' another player, highly regarded by their skill or communication.
7.1.2. Players appraised would get specifically recommendations to captains choosing players -- both unranked and ranked
[*] Global chat (?)
8.1. [ Mixed feelings as its requires someone to moderate chat ]
[*] Maps are pick/bans until 2 maps are left; all players should be able to vote which map they want to play. If votes are split, flip a coin system.
[*] Mandatory voice-chat, specifically on discord; mumble as an alternative.
10.1. [mixed opinions on mumble as I've seen past streams were the voice-chat gets raided easily]
[/olist]
Wish I can say more, but nothing else at my mind at the moment. Will edit more if I have any.
Apologies again if some seem out of order, vague, or just not further discussed. These, to emphasized, are far from the realm of reality and are instead fantasied expectations on what this theoretical site would have.
[img]https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/t_share/MTgwMTMyODEzMzQ4MDg2OTA2/build-your-best-lineup-in-nba-history-for-15.jpg[/img]
this pick system, prices based on player elo
I don't think it's that complex that NA needs another html pug era that exists alongside inhouse pugs. Discord pugs get going fast, and can sometimes make sure fatkids get to play, but:
-Can't be nearly as picky about your class/role
-Can't control who is on your team unless you volunteer medic
-Can't guarantee your teammates are enthused about what they end up playing
-Can't let captains know what the player they're picking is going to play to help balance issues
-And because of all of the above issues combined, has a smaller pool of players to create multiple quality games (adjacent skill level)
In houses as a concept will never die, but they are not an amazing avenue for the casual/picky player that isn't interested queuing far past scrim time. Realistically the best choice is actually reviving RGL Pugs and giving feedback on what features are needed/problems arrive. The developers have already proved they're willing to make changes since it's alpha release, and the HL community already actively uses it. If the community wants something akin to PugChamp 2.0 I don't think it's crazy to think that RGL Pugs could get there if people actually try it.
I don't think it's that complex that NA needs another html pug era that exists alongside inhouse pugs. Discord pugs get going fast, and can sometimes make sure fatkids get to play, but:
-Can't be nearly as picky about your class/role
-Can't control who is on your team unless you volunteer medic
-Can't guarantee your teammates are enthused about what they end up playing
-Can't let captains know what the player they're picking is going to play to help balance issues
-And because of all of the above issues combined, has a smaller pool of players to create multiple quality games (adjacent skill level)
In houses as a concept will never die, but they are not an amazing avenue for the casual/picky player that isn't interested queuing far past scrim time. Realistically the best choice is actually reviving [url=https://pugs.tf.plus/pug/6s%20captain]RGL Pugs[/url] and giving feedback on what features are needed/problems arrive. The developers have already proved they're willing to make changes since it's alpha release, and the HL community already actively uses it. If the community wants something akin to PugChamp 2.0 I don't think it's crazy to think that RGL Pugs could get there if people [i]actually try it[/i].
Jarrett000I don't think it's that complex that NA needs another html pug era that exists alongside inhouse pugs. Discord pugs get going fast, and can sometimes make sure fatkids get to play, but:
-Can't be nearly as picky about your class/role
-Can't control who is on your team unless you volunteer medic
-Can't guarantee your teammates are enthused about what they end up playing
-Can't let captains know what the player you're picking is going to play to help balance issues
-And because of all of the above issues combined, has a smaller pool of players to create multiple quality games (adjacent skill level)
In houses as a concept will never die, but they are not an amazing avenue for the casual/picky player that isn't interested queuing far past scrim time. Realistically the best choice is actually reviving RGL Pugs and giving feedback on what features are needed/problems arrive. The developers have already proved they're willing to make changes since it's alpha release, and the HL community already actively uses it. If the community wants something akin to PugChamp 2.0 I don't think it's crazy to think that RGL Pugs could get there if people actually try it.
The problem for players is the constant death of pug servers. There was just a thread earlier this month talking about where to find pug discord servers and from the moment the spreadsheet came out it became outdated cuz some places died or never ran in the first place.
In house pugs provide a better quality experience but lack the consistency of games and puts a barrier in between the player and the game (Having to stroll out and find a pug server that might or might not die within the month). It's why I genuinely prefer TF2C just because I know that the site works and there's been games there nightly so even if my team gets rolled every game I can at least play the game. Trade offs I guess?
I just wanna play the game at this point and not have to jump through hoops and deal with different cringey circle jerks and constantly having to find a new place to pug because the serv dies.
[quote=Jarrett000]I don't think it's that complex that NA needs another html pug era that exists alongside inhouse pugs. Discord pugs get going fast, and can sometimes make sure fatkids get to play, but:
-Can't be nearly as picky about your class/role
-Can't control who is on your team unless you volunteer medic
-Can't guarantee your teammates are enthused about what they end up playing
-Can't let captains know what the player you're picking is going to play to help balance issues
-And because of all of the above issues combined, has a smaller pool of players to create multiple quality games (adjacent skill level)
In houses as a concept will never die, but they are not an amazing avenue for the casual/picky player that isn't interested queuing far past scrim time. Realistically the best choice is actually reviving [url=https://pugs.tf.plus/pug/6s%20captain]RGL Pugs[/url] and giving feedback on what features are needed/problems arrive. The developers have already proved they're willing to make changes since it's alpha release, and the HL community already actively uses it. If the community wants something akin to PugChamp 2.0 I don't think it's crazy to think that RGL Pugs could get there if people [i]actually try it[/i].[/quote]
The problem for players is the constant death of pug servers. There was just a thread earlier this month talking about where to find pug discord servers and from the moment the spreadsheet came out it became outdated cuz some places died or never ran in the first place.
In house pugs provide a better quality experience but lack the consistency of games and puts a barrier in between the player and the game (Having to stroll out and find a pug server that might or might not die within the month). It's why I genuinely prefer TF2C just because I know that the site works and there's been games there nightly so even if my team gets rolled every game I can at least play the game. Trade offs I guess?
I just wanna play the game at this point and not have to jump through hoops and deal with different cringey circle jerks and constantly having to find a new place to pug because the serv dies.
Despite being a scout main and significantly worse at projectiles, idm settling for soldier/demo if there's too many scout mains. A system that just needs 2 volunteer medics is enough for me, though ideally all classes are predetermined because not everyone agrees with that
2 queues on the same system. 1 captain queue, 1 random team queue. captain queue requires "x" skill level, random queue requires "y" lower skill level
no offclassing unless 1 team is holding last/trying to push out of last/wiped on mid. Forward spawn offclasses allowed too. No time limit on offclasses required as long as previous conditions are met(?)
Voice chat required for captain pugs. Random queue requires voice chat during the day/scrim hours, but after normal scrim/match hours it is not. So ppl can just chill in late night games like tf2centers currently. idk how viable that is though. Maybe requires separate queues
No elo, or have hidden mmr. just having a global win% leaderboard is better imo. requires x amount of wins before you show up on the leaderboard
Despite being a scout main and significantly worse at projectiles, idm settling for soldier/demo if there's too many scout mains. A system that just needs 2 volunteer medics is enough for me, though ideally all classes are predetermined because not everyone agrees with that
2 queues on the same system. 1 captain queue, 1 random team queue. captain queue requires "x" skill level, random queue requires "y" lower skill level
no offclassing unless 1 team is holding last/trying to push out of last/wiped on mid. Forward spawn offclasses allowed too. No time limit on offclasses required as long as previous conditions are met(?)
Voice chat required for captain pugs. Random queue requires voice chat during the day/scrim hours, but after normal scrim/match hours it is not. So ppl can just chill in late night games like tf2centers currently. idk how viable that is though. Maybe requires separate queues
No elo, or have hidden mmr. just having a global win% leaderboard is better imo. requires x amount of wins before you show up on the leaderboard
I would like one with no creatures, ghouls or neets allowed. Proof of employment required, ability to see a trans person and not go into a manic slur filled fervor
I would like one with no creatures, ghouls or neets allowed. Proof of employment required, ability to see a trans person and not go into a manic slur filled fervor
I like the idea of having both ranked and unranked pugs, here are some thoughts:
My perception of ranked pugs would be the standard captain draft, though I'm unsure about separating by division. It may be better to start small and see where things go from there. (throw in some ELO ratings; commends would also be sick IMO). Unranked pugs would be more akin to mixchamp (I don't remember how it functioned exactly, but I'm pretty sure it just randomly placed six players on a team once the min class reqs were met).
As biased as I am towards casual/goofy pugs, I think it's important for everyone to be open to this discussion, doubly so if we intend to use RGL pugs as a foundation. For now, I'm glad this thread has been made.
If possible, could we go on a quick tangent and discuss why we don't use RGL Pugs? These came about while I was away from the game, and I have never seen a single player added up to them. Surely discussing why we don't use the site will kickstart its improvement?
IIRC, someone mentioned HL and 6s share servers that are in short supply. In this case, why not let us provide our own servers à la tf2c? I'll admit I'm not sure what that would look like or if it would work at all, but I'm just throwing around whatever first comes to mind.
I like the idea of having both ranked and unranked pugs, here are some thoughts:
My perception of ranked pugs would be the standard captain draft, though I'm unsure about separating by division. It may be better to start small and see where things go from there. (throw in some ELO ratings; commends would also be sick IMO). Unranked pugs would be more akin to mixchamp (I don't remember how it functioned exactly, but I'm pretty sure it just randomly placed six players on a team once the min class reqs were met).
As biased as I am towards casual/goofy pugs, I think it's important for everyone to be open to this discussion, doubly so if we intend to use RGL pugs as a foundation. For now, I'm glad this thread has been made.
If possible, could we go on a quick tangent and discuss why we don't use [url=https://pugs.tf.plus/pug/6s%20captain]RGL Pugs[/url]? These came about while I was away from the game, and I have never seen a single player added up to them. Surely discussing why we don't use the site will kickstart its improvement?
IIRC, someone mentioned HL and 6s share servers that are in short supply. In this case, why not let us provide our own servers à la tf2c? I'll admit I'm not sure what that would look like or if it would work at all, but I'm just throwing around whatever first comes to mind.
all of my best friends play there every night and i get picked every pug and they let me play soldier
all of my best friends play there every night and i get picked every pug and they let me play soldier
pugs where I get alot of kills and do alot of damage and win every game and then after we play the discord uno and its close but I still win that and all my friends are there and its in person at like a ymca or smthn and they have snacks and prizes for the winners and everyone shows up when ever I go there.
pugs where I get alot of kills and do alot of damage and win every game and then after we play the discord uno and its close but I still win that and all my friends are there and its in person at like a ymca or smthn and they have snacks and prizes for the winners and everyone shows up when ever I go there.
Jarrett000 Realistically the best choice is actually reviving RGL Pugs and giving feedback on what features are needed/problems arrive. The developers have already proved they're willing to make changes since it's alpha release, and the HL community already actively uses it. If the community wants something akin to PugChamp 2.0 I don't think it's crazy to think that RGL Pugs could get there if people actually try it.
Any current issues I have with RGL Pugs is that sometimes servers *appear* and *disappear* randomly. As example:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/334443589402755082/1174090101526122637/image.png?ex=6566539d&is=6553de9d&hm=bfc296a96587a256f5cbd4aebc332a8601572edad7caf8ebce10f3de849d8fc4&;
As of now currently, when joining the website, I don't seem this message above. So, my assumption is servers seem to be available now? -- though, typically from what I've seen is that its 1-2 servers max? which are typically held hostage by two HL queues lol.
I guess one of my current feedback to them is clarify how many servers they have available for X amount of PUGs?
Any-case, I'M willing to attempt to try RGL PUGs again today before and after scrims. Maybe earliest at 6-8 pm est?
I think a side note is how its kind of disappointing that top invite streamers haven't been incentivized to promote and play RGL pugs. You think when the alpha came out, people would be swarming... but no... I think it was again, because the server availability issue?
It might be more of an issue on RGL part in terms of self-promotion. You would think someone working on RGL PUGs, needing feedback, would create and push a TFTV thread: "RGL PUGs ALPHA -- NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK 11/X"
but nothing of the sort. Or even on its main-page for that matter. Pressing the "Pick-Up Games" I thought it would go to the alpha website, but it was just this:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/334443589402755082/1174431524897181746/image.png?ex=65679197&is=65551c97&hm=0948405cb7fdd117fa345eb0941bc7c35ed0fd7d207baff234cba28d63a977b1&;
I LOVE PROLANDER!!! :D
[quote=Jarrett000] Realistically the best choice is actually reviving [url=https://pugs.tf.plus/pug/6s%20captain]RGL Pugs[/url] and giving feedback on what features are needed/problems arrive. The developers have already proved they're willing to make changes since it's alpha release, and the HL community already actively uses it. If the community wants something akin to PugChamp 2.0 I don't think it's crazy to think that RGL Pugs could get there if people [i]actually try it[/i].[/quote]
Any current issues I have with RGL Pugs is that sometimes servers *appear* and *disappear* randomly. As example:
[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/334443589402755082/1174090101526122637/image.png?ex=6566539d&is=6553de9d&hm=bfc296a96587a256f5cbd4aebc332a8601572edad7caf8ebce10f3de849d8fc4&[/img]
As of now currently, when joining the website, I don't seem this message above. So, my assumption is servers seem to be available now? -- though, typically from what I've seen is that its 1-2 servers max? which are typically held hostage by two HL queues lol.
I guess one of my current feedback to them is clarify how many servers they have available for X amount of PUGs?
Any-case, I'M willing to attempt to try RGL PUGs again today before and after scrims. Maybe earliest at 6-8 pm est?
I think a side note is how its kind of disappointing that top invite streamers haven't been incentivized to promote and play RGL pugs. You think when the alpha came out, people would be swarming... but no... I think it was again, because the server availability issue?
It might be more of an issue on RGL part in terms of self-promotion. You would think someone working on RGL PUGs, needing feedback, would create and push a TFTV thread: "RGL PUGs ALPHA -- NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK 11/X"
but nothing of the sort. Or even on its main-page for that matter. Pressing the "Pick-Up Games" I thought it would go to the alpha website, but it was just this:
[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/334443589402755082/1174431524897181746/image.png?ex=65679197&is=65551c97&hm=0948405cb7fdd117fa345eb0941bc7c35ed0fd7d207baff234cba28d63a977b1&[/img]
I LOVE PROLANDER!!! :D
JuustinAny-case, I'M willing to attempt to try RGL PUGs again today before and after scrims. Maybe earliest at 6-8 pm est?
I think this is a good first step. Let's try to organize a time to try these out tonight and identify the problems.
[quote=Juustin]Any-case, I'M willing to attempt to try RGL PUGs again today before and after scrims. Maybe earliest at 6-8 pm est?[/quote] I think this is a good first step. Let's try to organize a time to try these out tonight and identify the problems.
JuustinI think a side note is how its kind of disappointing that top invite streamers haven't been incentivized to promote and play RGL pugs. You think when the alpha came out, people would be swarming... but no... I think it was again, because the server availability issue?
JuustinIt might be more of an issue on RGL part in terms of self-promotion. You would think someone working on RGL PUGs, needing feedback, would create and push a TFTV thread: "RGL PUGs ALPHA -- NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK 11/X"
you're correct, the delivery of rgl pugs was underwhelming because it was poorly advertised, i remember 3 YEARS AGO there was a tftv thread teasing the arrival as well as a promo video on stream before s4 6s grand finals and s7 highlander grand finals. fast forward to 2023 and there was pretty much nothing for the actual release
JuustinAny-case, I'M willing to attempt to try RGL PUGs again today before and after scrims. Maybe earliest at 6-8 pm est?
this also reminds me of a common complaint i've heard about tf2 pugs in recent years. lots of people complain that pugs start super late, this is because inhouse pugs aren't automated, so people have to wait until scrims are over for a runner to start pugs. pugchamp/pug.me used to start at 4-5pm and sometimes even earlier, website pugs dont have this issue.
also elo is sick and makes people try harder which good
[quote=Juustin]I think a side note is how its kind of disappointing that top invite streamers haven't been incentivized to promote and play RGL pugs. You think when the alpha came out, people would be swarming... but no... I think it was again, because the server availability issue? [/quote]
[quote=Juustin]It might be more of an issue on RGL part in terms of self-promotion. You would think someone working on RGL PUGs, needing feedback, would create and push a TFTV thread: "RGL PUGs ALPHA -- NEED TESTERS AND FEEDBACK 11/X" [/quote]
you're correct, the delivery of rgl pugs was underwhelming because it was poorly advertised, i remember 3 YEARS AGO there was a tftv thread teasing the arrival as well as a promo video on stream before s4 6s grand finals and s7 highlander grand finals. fast forward to 2023 and there was pretty much nothing for the actual release
[quote=Juustin]Any-case, I'M willing to attempt to try RGL PUGs again today before and after scrims. Maybe earliest at 6-8 pm est?[/quote]
this also reminds me of a common complaint i've heard about tf2 pugs in recent years. lots of people complain that pugs start super late, this is because inhouse pugs aren't automated, so people have to wait until scrims are over for a runner to start pugs. pugchamp/pug.me used to start at 4-5pm and sometimes even earlier, website pugs dont have this issue.
also elo is sick and makes people try harder which good
just now learning that rgl pugs released
just now learning that rgl pugs released
rgl has a prize pot for pugs paid???
https://pugs.tf.plus/100-fish
I played a hl pug a while ago and didn't see anything so i guess they're gonna get out of alpha soon.
rgl has a prize pot for pugs paid???
https://pugs.tf.plus/100-fish
I played a hl pug a while ago and didn't see anything so i guess they're gonna get out of alpha soon.
[quote=Juustin]Any-case, I'M willing to attempt to try RGL PUGs again today before and after scrims. Maybe earliest at 6-8 pm est?[/quote]
fellow pugmas, would you kindly add up to RGL PUGs? https://pugs.tf.plus/pug
[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/334443589402755082/1174485368645615767/Would_You_Kindly.webp?ex=6567c3bc&is=65554ebc&hm=f4f8eccd055a27bf3f7b85822f0d43389f875caaec828d828ee8e9e920fbdf8b&[/img]
if you have a mix of skill levels one of the problems with a discord/mumble pug group that is just based on a captain system is there is ambiguity for what class a player will play while picks are being made, and this can lead to more unpredictable or unbalanced pugs--unless it's just absolutely clear it's a sweat pug. any site or group that has defined classes and has some other incentive like elo, or a win/loss tracker on each class, etc. is just naturally going to be more structured and competitive feeling
a site like tf2pickup.eu has a good system, you choose the class you want to play, maps are voted on, and teams are automatically chosen by what I assume is some sort of internal elo system for balance. i think a captain-based site system where there are no limits for how many people can add up for each class is good too, as long as it's defined beforehand
if you have a mix of skill levels one of the problems with a discord/mumble pug group that is just based on a captain system is there is ambiguity for what class a player will play while picks are being made, and this can lead to more unpredictable or unbalanced pugs--unless it's just absolutely clear it's a sweat pug. any site or group that has defined classes and has some other incentive like elo, or a win/loss tracker on each class, etc. is just naturally going to be more structured and competitive feeling
a site like tf2pickup.eu has a good system, you choose the class you want to play, maps are voted on, and teams are automatically chosen by what I assume is some sort of internal elo system for balance. i think a captain-based site system where there are no limits for how many people can add up for each class is good too, as long as it's defined beforehand
TL;DR: I don't want to play TF2Center nor another version of PugChamp. Please keep an active list of In-Houses. We NEED a proper pug site for new players.
Forgive me for being pessimistic, but my experience in trying to play regular competitive TF2 outside of league/tournament play has been miserable. Most In-Houses have been fine for a while and then either some circlejerk joins and pretty much takes over or it dies after a month. TF2Center is Valve Comp with the proper ruleset but you have to wait 20-30 minutes for people to play medic. New pugging platforms end up like PugChamp with the same circlejerks, and whilst TF2Pickup is far better it still has the same issues.
The closest someone or something has gotten is Faceit. The old system (Before Pro League) had the right idea of clicking on a "Play" button; once you have 12 it puts people in a lobby with an 'attempt' at balancing the teams and lets the players figure it out. But that had a whole host of problems from everyone starting at the same ELO meaning balancing was awful, arguments over who played what, and because people didn't play it often the platform became inactive and degraded . Matchmaking platforms need enough players for balance and sustainability, which is one of the MANY reasons Valve Comp didn't succeed.
Finding the right solution is tough because everyone wants different things. Its why In-Houses are the way people do things right now; people have a lot more autonomy over how they want to play competitive. But that makes it harder to engage for less active or newer players.
I would like to see a proper platform/system is for that gap between Casual and Third-Party Competitive that Valve Comp was supposed to fill. Somewhere like Faceit where you can queue and play competitive in an environment with similar players without having to jump through many hoops to play. For more inactive players like myself, an active list of In-Houses with some descriptions like "Chill", "Serious", "Low-Div" and "High-Div" so one could choose what places suited them best.
[b]TL;DR: I don't want to play TF2Center nor another version of PugChamp. Please keep an active list of In-Houses. We NEED a proper pug site for new players.[/b]
Forgive me for being pessimistic, but my experience in trying to play regular competitive TF2 outside of league/tournament play has been miserable. Most In-Houses have been fine for a while and then either some circlejerk joins and pretty much takes over or it dies after a month. TF2Center is Valve Comp with the proper ruleset but you have to wait 20-30 minutes for people to play medic. New pugging platforms end up like PugChamp with the same circlejerks, and whilst TF2Pickup is far better it still has the same issues.
The closest someone or something has gotten is Faceit. The old system (Before Pro League) had the right idea of clicking on a "Play" button; once you have 12 it puts people in a lobby with an 'attempt' at balancing the teams and lets the players figure it out. But that had a whole host of problems from everyone starting at the same ELO meaning balancing was awful, arguments over who played what, and because people didn't play it often the platform became inactive and degraded . Matchmaking platforms need enough players for balance and sustainability, which is one of the MANY reasons Valve Comp didn't succeed.
Finding the right solution is tough because everyone wants different things. Its why In-Houses are the way people do things right now; people have a lot more autonomy over how they want to play competitive. But that makes it harder to engage for less active or newer players.
I would like to see a proper platform/system is for that gap between Casual and Third-Party Competitive that Valve Comp was supposed to fill. Somewhere like Faceit where you can queue and play competitive in an environment with similar players without having to jump through many hoops to play. For more inactive players like myself, an active list of In-Houses with some descriptions like "Chill", "Serious", "Low-Div" and "High-Div" so one could choose what places suited them best.
DrHappiness TF2Center is Valve Comp with the proper ruleset but you have to wait 20-30 minutes for people to play medic..
Medics recently have been common enough, just need more people to add up :)
[quote=DrHappiness] TF2Center is Valve Comp with the proper ruleset but you have to wait 20-30 minutes for people to play medic..[/quote]
Medics recently have been common enough, just need more people to add up :)
Make a website where all the names are anonymous, it'll make games way more fair instead of people just picking stacked teams for pugs.
Make a website where all the names are anonymous, it'll make games way more fair instead of people just picking stacked teams for pugs.
just got 12 to play an rgl pug and we picked bagel and ended up playing an upward 6s pug
https://logs.tf/3531376#76561198049378596
played a 6s pug with 14 players also
https://logs.tf/3531379#76561198049378596
RGL, Please.
just got 12 to play an rgl pug and we picked bagel and ended up playing an upward 6s pug
https://logs.tf/3531376#76561198049378596
played a 6s pug with 14 players also
https://logs.tf/3531379#76561198049378596
RGL, Please.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lHcA4hnSunY
[quote=SOOOOOAPYMEISTER]
played a 6s pug with 14 players also
https://logs.tf/3531379#76561198049378596
.[/quote]
[img]https://i.ibb.co/dLRNkCZ/image.png[/img]
SOOOOOAPYMEISTERjust got 12 to play an rgl pug and we picked bagel and ended up playing an upward 6s pug
https://logs.tf/3531376#76561198049378596
played a 6s pug with 14 players also
https://logs.tf/3531379#76561198049378596
RGL, Please.
linked this in their discord since its not in the rgl pug thread
[quote=SOOOOOAPYMEISTER]just got 12 to play an rgl pug and we picked bagel and ended up playing an upward 6s pug
https://logs.tf/3531376#76561198049378596
played a 6s pug with 14 players also
https://logs.tf/3531379#76561198049378596
RGL, Please.[/quote]
linked this in their discord since its not in the rgl pug thread
One that's automated and not ran by a bunch of mentally ill people that have been psyopped by the cia
One that's automated and not ran by a bunch of mentally ill people that have been psyopped by the cia
i think a large part of the reason many people won't "give it a try" isn't because they don't understand the logic behind testing and improving something but more the fact that it doesn't even meet the basic functionality of giving you a pug on the map you chose with the people who added up
i think a large part of the reason many people won't "give it a try" isn't because they don't understand the logic behind testing and improving something but more the fact that it doesn't even meet the basic functionality of giving you a pug on the map you chose with the people who added up
diemosJarrett000I don't think it's that complex that NA needs another html pug era that exists alongside inhouse pugs. Discord pugs get going fast, and can sometimes make sure fatkids get to play, but:
-Can't be nearly as picky about your class/role
-Can't control who is on your team unless you volunteer medic
-Can't guarantee your teammates are enthused about what they end up playing
-Can't let captains know what the player you're picking is going to play to help balance issues
-And because of all of the above issues combined, has a smaller pool of players to create multiple quality games (adjacent skill level)
In houses as a concept will never die, but they are not an amazing avenue for the casual/picky player that isn't interested queuing far past scrim time. Realistically the best choice is actually reviving RGL Pugs and giving feedback on what features are needed/problems arrive. The developers have already proved they're willing to make changes since it's alpha release, and the HL community already actively uses it. If the community wants something akin to PugChamp 2.0 I don't think it's crazy to think that RGL Pugs could get there if people actually try it.
The problem for players is the constant death of pug servers. There was just a thread earlier this month talking about where to find pug discord servers and from the moment the spreadsheet came out it became outdated cuz some places died or never ran in the first place.
In house pugs provide a better quality experience but lack the consistency of games and puts a barrier in between the player and the game (Having to stroll out and find a pug server that might or might not die within the month). It's why I genuinely prefer TF2C just because I know that the site works and there's been games there nightly so even if my team gets rolled every game I can at least play the game. Trade offs I guess?
I just wanna play the game at this point and not have to jump through hoops and deal with different cringey circle jerks and constantly having to find a new place to pug because the serv dies.
I've been consistently running pugs for multiple years at this point, servers only die when you don't have passionate enough runners. Pughub is three years old now, and while it died before I took over control of it, it was revived literally overnight with no problems. I think you reach a certain critical mass around 300 people on the server where you can consistently get pugs going pretty much no matter what, so long as you have someone that knows how to run
(also check out the pughub community tournament)
[quote=diemos][quote=Jarrett000]I don't think it's that complex that NA needs another html pug era that exists alongside inhouse pugs. Discord pugs get going fast, and can sometimes make sure fatkids get to play, but:
-Can't be nearly as picky about your class/role
-Can't control who is on your team unless you volunteer medic
-Can't guarantee your teammates are enthused about what they end up playing
-Can't let captains know what the player you're picking is going to play to help balance issues
-And because of all of the above issues combined, has a smaller pool of players to create multiple quality games (adjacent skill level)
In houses as a concept will never die, but they are not an amazing avenue for the casual/picky player that isn't interested queuing far past scrim time. Realistically the best choice is actually reviving [url=https://pugs.tf.plus/pug/6s%20captain]RGL Pugs[/url] and giving feedback on what features are needed/problems arrive. The developers have already proved they're willing to make changes since it's alpha release, and the HL community already actively uses it. If the community wants something akin to PugChamp 2.0 I don't think it's crazy to think that RGL Pugs could get there if people [i]actually try it[/i].[/quote]
The problem for players is the constant death of pug servers. There was just a thread earlier this month talking about where to find pug discord servers and from the moment the spreadsheet came out it became outdated cuz some places died or never ran in the first place.
In house pugs provide a better quality experience but lack the consistency of games and puts a barrier in between the player and the game (Having to stroll out and find a pug server that might or might not die within the month). It's why I genuinely prefer TF2C just because I know that the site works and there's been games there nightly so even if my team gets rolled every game I can at least play the game. Trade offs I guess?
I just wanna play the game at this point and not have to jump through hoops and deal with different cringey circle jerks and constantly having to find a new place to pug because the serv dies.[/quote]
I've been consistently running pugs for multiple years at this point, servers only die when you don't have passionate enough runners. Pughub is three years old now, and while it died before I took over control of it, it was revived literally overnight with no problems. I think you reach a certain critical mass around 300 people on the server where you can consistently get pugs going pretty much no matter what, so long as you have someone that knows how to run
(also check out the pughub community tournament)
Ideally everyone is worse than me
Ideally everyone is worse than me
SOOOOOAPYMEISTERjust got 12 to play an rgl pug and we picked bagel and ended up playing an upward 6s pug
https://logs.tf/3531376#76561198049378596
played a 6s pug with 14 players also
https://logs.tf/3531379#76561198049378596
RGL, Please.
Hello friends I'm from rgl's pug team. happy to report that the issue with the wrong map being played is fixed. Sorry for the inconvenience. I suspect the 7v7 incident was due to connect leaking. We will be looking into solutions for raiding as needed in the long term, but currently the site is set up to kick everyone and make a new pass between rounds, so as long as no one is actively leaking connect it should be sufficient for alpha. If it's not kicking players or resetting the gameserver password between rounds, please let us know.
MelonssIIRC, someone mentioned HL and 6s share servers that are in short supply. In this case, why not let us provide our own servers à la tf2c? I'll admit I'm not sure what that would look like or if it would work at all, but I'm just throwing around whatever first comes to mind.
Most of the time we've got 2-3 dedicated servers online just for pugs. Altho the site currently has just one server hooked up to it bc the other two are down for maintenance at the moment. If I see that servers continue to be an issue, I'll open a few more, but 3 has usually been enough to meet our needs. I definitely agree that seeing "no available servers" can be a deterrent to adding up, so my goal for the short to mid-term will be to always have 1 more server than needed.
One of our key principals as a pug group has always been openness to all skill levels. Before the PUG site, we tended towards having newer players and a relatively lower skill level in our discord pugs. While we are glad to get as many higher skill players in games as we have been lately, we do want to entice more players to regularly add up, since a larger player pool will improve the experience for everyone, and allow for more even games at all skill levels. With these goals in mind, we appreciate those of you who care enough about our success to give honest feedback. We will try and live up to your expectations as best we can, and we thank you for your patience if/when things don't turn out like they should.
Jarrett000linked this in their discord since its not in the rgl pug thread
Thank you for the tip, dolphin monitors a thread on these forums for the public alpha @ https://www.teamfortress.tv/62849/rgl-pugs-public-alpha and I monitor the general feedback thread on the rgl forums if anyone has feedback in forum post form, sending it to those places will guarantee it's seen. There's also a channel in the RGL discord specifically for reporting bugs, #alpha-pug-bugs, the ?feedback command also works for general feedback via discord if thats your cup of tea.
[quote=SOOOOOAPYMEISTER]just got 12 to play an rgl pug and we picked bagel and ended up playing an upward 6s pug
https://logs.tf/3531376#76561198049378596
played a 6s pug with 14 players also
https://logs.tf/3531379#76561198049378596
RGL, Please.[/quote]
Hello friends I'm from rgl's pug team. happy to report that the issue with the wrong map being played is fixed. Sorry for the inconvenience. I suspect the 7v7 incident was due to connect leaking. We will be looking into solutions for raiding as needed in the long term, but currently the site is set up to kick everyone and make a new pass between rounds, so as long as no one is actively leaking connect it should be sufficient for alpha. If it's not kicking players or resetting the gameserver password between rounds, please let us know.
[quote=Melonss]IIRC, someone mentioned HL and 6s share servers that are in short supply. In this case, why not let us provide our own servers à la tf2c? I'll admit I'm not sure what that would look like or if it would work at all, but I'm just throwing around whatever first comes to mind.[/quote]
Most of the time we've got 2-3 dedicated servers online just for pugs. Altho the site currently has just one server hooked up to it bc the other two are down for maintenance at the moment. If I see that servers continue to be an issue, I'll open a few more, but 3 has usually been enough to meet our needs. I definitely agree that seeing "no available servers" can be a deterrent to adding up, so my goal for the short to mid-term will be to always have 1 more server than needed.
One of our key principals as a pug group has always been openness to all skill levels. Before the PUG site, we tended towards having newer players and a relatively lower skill level in our discord pugs. While we are glad to get as many higher skill players in games as we have been lately, we do want to entice more players to regularly add up, since a larger player pool will improve the experience for everyone, and allow for more even games at all skill levels. With these goals in mind, we appreciate those of you who care enough about our success to give honest feedback. We will try and live up to your expectations as best we can, and we thank you for your patience if/when things don't turn out like they should.
[quote=Jarrett000]linked this in their discord since its not in the rgl pug thread[/quote]
Thank you for the tip, dolphin monitors a thread on these forums for the public alpha @ https://www.teamfortress.tv/62849/rgl-pugs-public-alpha and I monitor the general feedback thread on the rgl forums if anyone has feedback in forum post form, sending it to those places will guarantee it's seen. There's also a channel in the RGL discord specifically for reporting bugs, #alpha-pug-bugs, the ?feedback command also works for general feedback via discord if thats your cup of tea.