AoshimaEven if the introduction of a lobby HL lobby system doesn't get people into competetive, I would /very/ much be happy to have it included, because it'd let me pub in a more structured and fun format.
I love 6s a lot, it's the most fun format to watch in my opinion, but HL is also a worthy format, as well.
Baby steps.
This too. Anyone remember the days when you could go into a pub and maybe have a good time?
This might help bring back those days. Go into tf2, go into a lobby, and just goof off. Don't care about winning, just shoot some nerds dammit.
Meh, just my 2cents. I think it is a move forward. Would love a 6v6 lobby option, but we can only ask for so much.
[quote=Aoshima]Even if the introduction of a lobby HL lobby system doesn't get people into competetive, I would /very/ much be happy to have it included, because it'd let me pub in a more structured and fun format.
I love 6s a lot, it's the most fun format to watch in my opinion, but HL is also a worthy format, as well.
Baby steps.[/quote]
This too. Anyone remember the days when you could go into a pub and maybe have a good time?
This might help bring back those days. Go into tf2, go into a lobby, and just goof off. Don't care about winning, just shoot some nerds dammit.
Meh, just my 2cents. I think it is a move forward. Would love a 6v6 lobby option, but we can only ask for so much.
enigmathere is a very fundamental problem with highlander that I don't think the valve team has acknowledged:
it requires 18 players.
it's going to be a logistical nightmare to organize that many people in an automated matchmaking setting on top of the strict highlander constraints (1 of each class).
Why? New button in main menu -> Play a highlander match!
-click button
-pick class
-get put into lobby with most players in where your class doesn't exist already
-option to manually start a lobby
I don't see a big problem here.
[quote=enigma]there is a very fundamental problem with highlander that I don't think the valve team has acknowledged:
[b]it requires 18 players[/b].
it's going to be a logistical nightmare to organize that many people in an automated matchmaking setting on top of the strict highlander constraints (1 of each class).[/quote]
Why? New button in main menu -> Play a highlander match!
-click button
-pick class
-get put into lobby with most players in where your class doesn't exist already
-option to manually start a lobby
I don't see a big problem here.
Trekkiewhat i have taken away from this thread:
valve doesnt know the first thing about comp tf2
after years of ruining the game with broken items/updates, they have decided that the best format for comp tf2 which has remained largely unchanged for ~4 years is now too different from the game that pubbers play, and so the competitive format needs to adapt to the game, and not the other way around.
Please tell me where they said you need to change at all.
Nothing is changing for you. Your game is identical to the way it has always been.
The only thing that's changing is people who think your favorite gamemode is too complicated get the version of competitive TF2 that makes more sense to them, and when they get used to that they are far more likely to join 6s.
I don't see why anyone would complain about this. Nothing changes for you if you don't play the lobbies. You don't have to "adapt" to anything.
[quote=Trekkie]what i have taken away from this thread:
valve doesnt know the first thing about comp tf2
after years of ruining the game with broken items/updates, they have decided that the best format for comp tf2 which has remained largely unchanged for ~4 years is now too different from the game that pubbers play, and so the competitive format needs to adapt to the game, and not the other way around.[/quote]
Please tell me where they said you need to change at all.
Nothing is changing for you. Your game is identical to the way it has always been.
The only thing that's changing is people who think your favorite gamemode is too complicated get the version of competitive TF2 that makes more sense to them, and when they get used to that they are far more likely to join 6s.
I don't see why anyone would complain about this. Nothing changes for you if you don't play the lobbies. You don't have to "adapt" to anything.
enigmathere is a very fundamental problem with highlander that I don't think the valve team has acknowledged:
it requires 18 players.
it's going to be a logistical nightmare to organize that many people in an automated matchmaking setting on top of the strict highlander constraints (1 of each class).
This needs to be repeated more.
I remember when I played L4D1/2 that even getting 8 players together in a matchmaking system was a nightmare. Now this was a few years ago when Valve first introduced matchmaking and maybe they've improved (from my recent experience with MvM, not really).
Highlander makes this problem MUCH worse, because not only are there player requirements there are also class requirements. You can't just find any 18 players, you have to find 2 people willing to play each class. There are a lot of people in the pub community who don't want to play anything except for 1 or 2 classes. So trying to find 9 different classes twice, just to have 2 teams be able to compete is going to be very difficult, even more so if you're not from the US.
[quote=enigma]there is a very fundamental problem with highlander that I don't think the valve team has acknowledged:
[b]it requires 18 players[/b].
it's going to be a logistical nightmare to organize that many people in an automated matchmaking setting on top of the strict highlander constraints (1 of each class).[/quote]
This needs to be repeated more.
I remember when I played L4D1/2 that even getting 8 players together in a matchmaking system was a nightmare. Now this was a few years ago when Valve first introduced matchmaking and maybe they've improved (from my recent experience with MvM, not really).
Highlander makes this problem MUCH worse, because not only are there player requirements there are also class requirements. You can't just find any 18 players, you have to find 2 people willing to play each class. There are a lot of people in the pub community who don't want to play anything except for 1 or 2 classes. So trying to find 9 different classes twice, just to have 2 teams be able to compete is going to be very difficult, even more so if you're not from the US.
kiriyou know what is really killing competitive tf2?
capture points
how many times has an exciting fast-paced match full of airshots, big demo bombs and epic scout flanks been ruined because some idiot decided to go spy and backcap last when no one was looking? capping points takes no skill, its just standing in one place for 10 seconds, a 3 year old could do that
if valve really wants to support competitive tf2 they should make a game mode with no capture points (or capture point-like gimmicks such as payload carts and flags). come on guys it's a shooter. it should be about shooting people.
not at all.
keep someone at last if you're going to 2nd pushing out. using the lobby system would get teamwork pubbers desire.
and there's arena mode for that. which no one likes competitively.
it's either too stalematey or too stacked. how you would be able to find a balance would be tough, even with comms.
i can see where you're coming from with that though but i disagree.
[quote=kiri]you know what is really killing competitive tf2?
capture points
how many times has an exciting fast-paced match full of airshots, big demo bombs and epic scout flanks been ruined because some idiot decided to go spy and backcap last when no one was looking? capping points takes no skill, its just standing in one place for 10 seconds, a 3 year old could do that
if valve really wants to support competitive tf2 they should make a game mode with no capture points (or capture point-like gimmicks such as payload carts and flags). come on guys it's a shooter. it should be about shooting people.[/quote]
not at all.
keep someone at last if you're going to 2nd pushing out. using the lobby system would get teamwork pubbers desire.
and there's arena mode for that. which no one likes competitively.
it's either too stalematey or too stacked. how you would be able to find a balance would be tough, even with comms.
i can see where you're coming from with that though but i disagree.
the301stspartanenigmathere is a very fundamental problem with highlander that I don't think the valve team has acknowledged:
it requires 18 players.
it's going to be a logistical nightmare to organize that many people in an automated matchmaking setting on top of the strict highlander constraints (1 of each class).
Why? New button in main menu -> Play a highlander match!
-click button
-pick class
-get put into lobby with most players in where your class doesn't exist already
-option to manually start a lobby
I don't see a big problem here.
18 players is almost double the number in existing matchmaking systems (5v5)
typical matchmaking problems:
- critical mass
- fair matchmaking/elo system
- disconnects/ragequits
- waiting
factor in a the added complexity brought on by almost double the number of players per game and a much smaller number of players queueing and you're looking at an exponential magnification of these problems
[quote=the301stspartan][quote=enigma]there is a very fundamental problem with highlander that I don't think the valve team has acknowledged:
[b]it requires 18 players[/b].
it's going to be a logistical nightmare to organize that many people in an automated matchmaking setting on top of the strict highlander constraints (1 of each class).[/quote]
Why? New button in main menu -> Play a highlander match!
-click button
-pick class
-get put into lobby with most players in where your class doesn't exist already
-option to manually start a lobby
I don't see a big problem here.[/quote]
18 players is almost double the number in existing matchmaking systems (5v5)
typical matchmaking problems:
- critical mass
- fair matchmaking/elo system
- disconnects/ragequits
- waiting
factor in a the added complexity brought on by almost double the number of players per game and a much smaller number of players queueing and you're looking at an exponential magnification of these problems
enigmathere is a very fundamental problem with highlander that I don't think the valve team has acknowledged:
it requires 18 players.
it's going to be a logistical nightmare to organize that many people in an automated matchmaking setting on top of the strict highlander constraints (1 of each class).
it requires more than 18 players really, seeing as someone will inevitably lag out, or ragequit, or get kicked for trolling. some kind of system for getting backups will have to be in place as well
i assume they'll model it after MVM but i don't remember what exactly the MVM system is—something like "you have x amount of time to rejoin and your team's tickets won't be consumed if you don't" i think
[quote=enigma]there is a very fundamental problem with highlander that I don't think the valve team has acknowledged:
[b]it requires 18 players[/b].
it's going to be a logistical nightmare to organize that many people in an automated matchmaking setting on top of the strict highlander constraints (1 of each class).[/quote]
it requires more than 18 players really, seeing as someone will inevitably lag out, or ragequit, or get kicked for trolling. some kind of system for getting backups will have to be in place as well
i assume they'll model it after MVM but i don't remember what exactly the MVM system is—something like "you have x amount of time to rejoin and your team's tickets won't be consumed if you don't" i think
kiriyou know what is really killing competitive tf2?
capture points
how many times has an exciting fast-paced match full of airshots, big demo bombs and epic scout flanks been ruined because some idiot decided to go spy and backcap last when no one was looking? capping points takes no skill, its just standing in one place for 10 seconds, a 3 year old could do that
if valve really wants to support competitive tf2 they should make a game mode with no capture points (or capture point-like gimmicks such as payload carts and flags). come on guys it's a shooter. it should be about shooting people.
This is one of those posts that looks so out of place I genuinely can't tell if it's being sarcastic or not.
[quote=kiri]you know what is really killing competitive tf2?
capture points
how many times has an exciting fast-paced match full of airshots, big demo bombs and epic scout flanks been ruined because some idiot decided to go spy and backcap last when no one was looking? capping points takes no skill, its just standing in one place for 10 seconds, a 3 year old could do that
if valve really wants to support competitive tf2 they should make a game mode with no capture points (or capture point-like gimmicks such as payload carts and flags). come on guys it's a shooter. it should be about shooting people.[/quote]
This is one of those posts that looks so out of place I genuinely can't tell if it's being sarcastic or not.
Jasenigmathere is a very fundamental problem with highlander that I don't think the valve team has acknowledged:
it requires 18 players.
it's going to be a logistical nightmare to organize that many people in an automated matchmaking setting on top of the strict highlander constraints (1 of each class).
This needs to be repeated more.
I remember when I played L4D1/2 that even getting 8 players together in a matchmaking system was a nightmare. Now this was a few years ago when Valve first introduced matchmaking and maybe they've improved (from my recent experience with MvM, not really).
There are a lot of people in the pub community who don't want to play anything except for 1 or 2 classes. So trying to find 9 different classes twice, just to have 2 teams be able to compete is going to be very difficult, even more so if you're not from the US.
This is something that we can't control. Saying, "Valve will fuck up" is easy, but we don't know that yet.
Also, look at tf2lobby. Shitty example, granted, but they manage to get people playing and I see a official TF2 lobby system working the same and filling tf2lobby's place, basic matchmaking that gives pubbers the message that 12v12 is not the only way to play the game. I think you would be surprised by how much of a difforence that would make.
Right now Valve rarely even mentions ANY form of comp TF2. If players were told that it is out there, I believe many people would go out looking for it. We might see a main division of ESEA. Maybe the influx of people would put us on the ESEA higher up's radar. Who knows.
If you don't like it, don't play it. If you do, do so. In fact, that is probably the best way to about it, play with the 'pubbers' who would use the system and help them figure the comp side out. Give them advice, resources, etc. But nothing is forced upon you. Valve is not trying to draw players but rather will be pushing them to the community.
[quote=Jas][quote=enigma]there is a very fundamental problem with highlander that I don't think the valve team has acknowledged:
[b]it requires 18 players[/b].
it's going to be a logistical nightmare to organize that many people in an automated matchmaking setting on top of the strict highlander constraints (1 of each class).[/quote]
This needs to be repeated more.
I remember when I played L4D1/2 that even getting 8 players together in a matchmaking system was a nightmare. Now this was a few years ago when Valve first introduced matchmaking and maybe they've improved (from my recent experience with MvM, not really).
There are a lot of people in the pub community who don't want to play anything except for 1 or 2 classes. So trying to find 9 different classes twice, just to have 2 teams be able to compete is going to be very difficult, even more so if you're not from the US.[/quote]
This is something that we can't control. Saying, "Valve will fuck up" is easy, but [b]we don't know that yet[/b].
Also, look at tf2lobby. Shitty example, granted, but they manage to get people playing and I see a official TF2 lobby system working the same and filling tf2lobby's place, basic matchmaking that gives pubbers the message that 12v12 is not the only way to play the game. I think you would be surprised by how much of a difforence that would make.
Right now Valve rarely even mentions ANY form of comp TF2. If players were told that it is out there, I believe many people would go out looking for it. We might see a main division of ESEA. Maybe the influx of people would put us on the ESEA higher up's radar. Who knows.
If you don't like it, don't play it. If you do, do so. In fact, that is probably the best way to about it, play [b]with[/b] the 'pubbers' who would use the system and help them figure the comp side out. Give them advice, resources, etc. But nothing is forced upon you. Valve is not trying to draw players but rather will be pushing them to the community.
Me and the other guys from team bonus already have the system and connections in place for high-level HL pugs. We can test out some of these ideas, but who should I be in contact with to make sure valve gets the feedback they're looking for? From just talking about it with some people briefly we're thinking about a kind of Dota/League system where each team is allowed to ban X number of weapons (maybe 5 or 6?). As far as the set hats though (the spy and sniper ones) we think those should just be banned outright because seriously those are just dumb and valve shouldn't need statistical evidence to figure out how OP they are.
Me and the other guys from team bonus already have the system and connections in place for high-level HL pugs. We can test out some of these ideas, but who should I be in contact with to make sure valve gets the feedback they're looking for? From just talking about it with some people briefly we're thinking about a kind of Dota/League system where each team is allowed to ban X number of weapons (maybe 5 or 6?). As far as the set hats though (the spy and sniper ones) we think those should just be banned outright because seriously those are just dumb and valve shouldn't need statistical evidence to figure out how OP they are.
also, if we were to plug tf.tv in the lobby system, wouldn't we have to 'censor' it, per se? a lot of players are touchy about curse words and even some servers kick you for cursing. which is odd because the classes curse, themselves.
something as simple as pink hearts over curse words would work, like spuf does.
also, if we were to plug tf.tv in the lobby system, wouldn't we have to 'censor' it, per se? a lot of players are touchy about curse words and even some servers kick you for cursing. [s]which is odd because the classes curse, themselves.[/s]
something as simple as pink hearts over curse words would work, like spuf does.
RoycelamefxLets start with a list of absolute must bans.
You can't allow the pee sniper or YER through because of how devastating they are in the sets. A spy that can't be heard unclocking and a sniper that can't be headshot? Massively lowers the skill ceiling while still making them almost as threatening as a player really talented at either class. Honestly, no other items in the game have anywhere near the impact of those two sets.
why not just ban the associated cosmetic items?
Salamancer#23 Part of the reason for the system is that it gives Valve much better feedback on which weapons need rebalancing. Currently their only sources are SPUF, Reddit and other forum threads. Those are not useful data points. Having a pick/ban item system allows them to focus on balance early on.
this won't nessacirily give them the best feedback for the game as a whole, only for that specific format. for example the gunslinger is beyond broken in pubs, but not a big deal for competitive formats.
lamefxLets start with a list of absolute must bans.
Pomson
Enforcer
beggars bazooka
vita saw
phlog
atomiser
+ any weapons with associated glitches/exploits.
[quote=Royce][quote=lamefx]Lets start with a list of absolute must bans.[/quote]
You can't allow the pee sniper or YER through because of how devastating they are in the sets. A spy that can't be heard unclocking and a sniper that can't be headshot? Massively lowers the skill ceiling while still making them almost as threatening as a player really talented at either class. Honestly, no other items in the game have anywhere near the impact of those two sets.[/quote] why not just ban the associated cosmetic items?
[quote=Salamancer]#23 Part of the reason for the system is that it gives Valve much better feedback on which weapons need rebalancing. Currently their only sources are SPUF, Reddit and other forum threads. Those are not useful data points. Having a pick/ban item system allows them to focus on balance early on.
[/quote]
this won't nessacirily give them the best feedback for the game as a whole, only for that specific format. for example the gunslinger is beyond broken in pubs, but not a big deal for competitive formats.
[quote=lamefx]Lets start with a list of absolute must bans.[/quote]
Pomson
Enforcer
beggars bazooka
vita saw
phlog
atomiser
+ any weapons with associated glitches/exploits.
Isokiriyou know what is really killing competitive tf2?
capture points
how many times has an exciting fast-paced match full of airshots, big demo bombs and epic scout flanks been ruined because some idiot decided to go spy and backcap last when no one was looking? capping points takes no skill, its just standing in one place for 10 seconds, a 3 year old could do that
if valve really wants to support competitive tf2 they should make a game mode with no capture points (or capture point-like gimmicks such as payload carts and flags). come on guys it's a shooter. it should be about shooting people.
This is one of those posts that looks so out of place I genuinely can't tell if it's being sarcastic or not.
i guess this is the wrong community for me :'<
[quote=Iso][quote=kiri]you know what is really killing competitive tf2?
capture points
how many times has an exciting fast-paced match full of airshots, big demo bombs and epic scout flanks been ruined because some idiot decided to go spy and backcap last when no one was looking? capping points takes no skill, its just standing in one place for 10 seconds, a 3 year old could do that
if valve really wants to support competitive tf2 they should make a game mode with no capture points (or capture point-like gimmicks such as payload carts and flags). come on guys it's a shooter. it should be about shooting people.[/quote]
This is one of those posts that looks so out of place I genuinely can't tell if it's being sarcastic or not.[/quote]
i guess this is the wrong community for me :'<
enigma18 players is almost double the number of existing matchmaking systems (5v5)
typical matchmaking problems:
- fair matchmaking/elo system
- disconnects/ragequits
- delays
factor in a the added complexity brought on by almost double the number of players per game and a much smaller number of players queueing and you're looking at an exponential magnification of these problems
Fair matchmaking isn't gonna happen for a little bit for sure. Disconnects and ragequits would create a pause. Delays? I don't think they'd be that different than waiting for the average highlander/6v6 match. ~10 minutes and everybody SHOULD be in the server.
[quote=enigma]
18 players is almost double the number of existing matchmaking systems (5v5)
typical matchmaking problems:
- fair matchmaking/elo system
- disconnects/ragequits
- delays
factor in a the added complexity brought on by almost double the number of players per game and a much smaller number of players queueing and you're looking at an exponential magnification of these problems[/quote]
Fair matchmaking isn't gonna happen for a little bit for sure. Disconnects and ragequits would create a pause. Delays? I don't think they'd be that different than waiting for the average highlander/6v6 match. ~10 minutes and everybody SHOULD be in the server.
If HL lobbies work in TF2lobby, why would it be a problem ingame where it will reach a lot of more players?
Also, if you are able to choose your class before joining the match, the system could just put you together with the other classes, so there wouldn't have a problem with people quitting due to having to play with a different class.
If HL lobbies work in TF2lobby, why would it be a problem ingame where it will reach a lot of more players?
Also, if you are able to choose your class before joining the match, the system could just put you together with the other classes, so there wouldn't have a problem with people quitting due to having to play with a different class.
going to give my thoughts on the weapon ban list. i'll probably have some people disagree with me but the ban list should be the same as the one in UGC atm. if this lobby thing happens, and people participate, then want to transition over to an actual highlander league such as UGC, the weapon ban list should be the same as UGC as the lobby. let's say for example, the beggars bazooka was allowed in this in game lobby highlander, and the bazooka is their main weapon of choice, if and when they transition over to UGC, they'll find out the weapon they like to use is banned. that would suck for them.
going to give my thoughts on the weapon ban list. i'll probably have some people disagree with me but the ban list should be the same as the one in UGC atm. if this lobby thing happens, and people participate, then want to transition over to an actual highlander league such as UGC, the weapon ban list should be the same as UGC as the lobby. let's say for example, the beggars bazooka was allowed in this in game lobby highlander, and the bazooka is their main weapon of choice, if and when they transition over to UGC, they'll find out the weapon they like to use is banned. that would suck for them.
Maybe I am cynical, but I don't see how a community that can't have legal classes/weapons in their practice mod without complaining, is going to come up with a list of weapons from ones already banned that they wouldnt mind testing. I also don't think people will do this testing. Maybe it was a problem with personnel, but back when Robin granted a whole bunch of invites into the then private TF2beta to test weapons, no one ever did. I tried organizing pugs in the beta all the time and no one wanted to because they felt their time was better spent playing tf2 the way they wanted (without weapons they didn't like/understand).
I also agree with Killing's post in #23.
Lastly, my cynical side wants to say that Valve knows there is this insurmountable barrier between what makes TF2 a good comp game and what makes it a fun pub game. They seem to not care much/have thrown their hands up with this issue, and then you came along and they said well here is this problem...see what you can do with it.
The hard issue is that the pub game is an inventory based role-playing fps. Pubbers generally feel aligned to a few classes they either identify with or have a cool hat for. Comp players treat classes as tools, and these two differing viewpoints are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Pub players cant understand why there aren't more pyro's and engineers, they do such good things in-game after all. Highlander softens this jump, demanding that every class has a role and gets playtime. That is way easier to swallow from someone coming from a pub who rarely see's the need to go scout or soldier, and if they do ...it's with mad-milk and a liberty launcher. Even in highlander, the players who seem to play these classes are also 6v6 players.
So my cynical self see's this as really just a nice implementation of HL on the front page. That should bring in some curious players. It will doubtfully do anything for 6v6 other than trickle up players who end up liking a competitive format.
Maybe I am cynical, but I don't see how a community that can't have legal classes/weapons in their practice mod without complaining, is going to come up with a list of weapons from ones already banned that they wouldnt mind testing. I also don't think people will do this testing. Maybe it was a problem with personnel, but back when Robin granted a whole bunch of invites into the then private TF2beta to test weapons, no one ever did. I tried organizing pugs in the beta all the time and no one wanted to because they felt their time was better spent playing tf2 the way they wanted (without weapons they didn't like/understand).
I also agree with Killing's post in #23.
Lastly, my cynical side wants to say that Valve knows there is this insurmountable barrier between what makes TF2 a good comp game and what makes it a fun pub game. They seem to not care much/have thrown their hands up with this issue, and then you came along and they said well here is this problem...see what you can do with it.
The hard issue is that the pub game is an inventory based role-playing fps. Pubbers generally feel aligned to a few classes they either identify with or have a cool hat for. Comp players treat classes as tools, and these two differing viewpoints are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Pub players cant understand why there aren't more pyro's and engineers, they do such good things in-game after all. Highlander softens this jump, demanding that every class has a role and gets playtime. That is way easier to swallow from someone coming from a pub who rarely see's the need to go scout or soldier, and if they do ...it's with mad-milk and a liberty launcher. Even in highlander, the players who seem to play these classes are also 6v6 players.
So my cynical self see's this as really just a nice implementation of HL on the front page. That should bring in some curious players. It will doubtfully do anything for 6v6 other than trickle up players who end up liking a competitive format.
Now, with every update, we will be eagerly sitting on the edge of our seats. Remember the hype with the pyro update? Samesies.
Now, with every update, we will be eagerly sitting on the edge of our seats. Remember the hype with the pyro update? Samesies.
#161 Pudding Cup, your best bet is make a new thread here on the forums to collect feedback and after-action reports. We can get the word to the TF team to check that thread.
#161 Pudding Cup, your best bet is make a new thread here on the forums to collect feedback and after-action reports. We can get the word to the TF team to check that thread.
BLoodSireSo my cynical self see's this as really just a nice implementation of HL on the front page. That should bring in some curious players. It will doubtfully do anything for 6v6 other than trickle up players who end up liking a competitive format.
But that is great and the whole point of the entire thing!
[quote=BLoodSire]So my cynical self see's this as really just a nice implementation of HL on the front page. That should bring in some curious players. It will doubtfully do anything for 6v6 other than [b]trickle up players who end up liking a competitive format[/b].[/quote]
But that is great and the whole point of the entire thing!
also, I really don't like this idea of a game being boring when it's only about execution. Football, basketball, baseball, hockey...That is what sports are all about: execution and the moments of excellence within the ruleset. There is nothing more exciting than seeing a player split the offense and end up in a breakaway or seeing a Micahel Jordan assert his will all over the court. Same with esports. Same with Tf2. I want to see banny micro his team into a perfectly executed push into mid, or clockwork 2v1 both scouts, win, then pick the med to save a round. I do notwant to see X build triumph over Y build. That level of meta is already there...it's the classes.
What Robin seems to be saying is "I see lot's of uber stalemates, then it's just a matter of who makes a mistake." That seems more a problem with how powerful uber is in the one medic 6 player system. So I say again, I just really believe its an insurmountable problem. They don't like how ironed out 6's is. It does seem at odds with the mindset that green-lighted random crits.
also, I really don't like this idea of a game being boring when it's only about execution. Football, basketball, baseball, hockey...That is what sports are all about: execution and the moments of excellence within the ruleset. There is nothing more exciting than seeing a player split the offense and end up in a breakaway or seeing a Micahel Jordan assert his will all over the court. Same with esports. Same with Tf2. I want to see banny micro his team into a perfectly executed push into mid, or clockwork 2v1 both scouts, win, then pick the med to save a round. I [b]do not[/b]want to see X build triumph over Y build. That level of meta is already there...it's the classes.
What Robin seems to be saying is "I see lot's of uber stalemates, then it's just a matter of who makes a mistake." That seems more a problem with how powerful uber is in the one medic 6 player system. So I say again, I just really believe its an insurmountable problem. They don't like how ironed out 6's is. It does seem at odds with the mindset that green-lighted random crits.
#161 I think If we agreed on a specific number of weapons to ban each game (now.)
each pug group could then make a spreadsheet listing the game #, date, time and the weapon list banned for that game.
edit: and maybe we should make the stock weapons + kritzkriege & ubersaw unbanable.
#161 I think If we agreed on a specific number of weapons to ban each game (now.)
each pug group could then make a spreadsheet listing the game #, date, time and the weapon list banned for that game.
edit: and maybe we should make the stock weapons + kritzkriege & ubersaw unbanable.
the301stspartanBLoodSireSo my cynical self see's this as really just a nice implementation of HL on the front page. That should bring in some curious players. It will doubtfully do anything for 6v6 other than trickle up players who end up liking a competitive format.
But that is great and the whole point of the entire thing!
I agree, but I don't believe we have to do a single thing about that. My main point is they dont really like comp. HL they like more, and HL is a nice gateway into 6's. There isn't anything more we can hope from this.
The best way to help us isnt with lobby systems it's with coverage. Spec options like dota has...that sort of thing.
[quote=the301stspartan][quote=BLoodSire]So my cynical self see's this as really just a nice implementation of HL on the front page. That should bring in some curious players. It will doubtfully do anything for 6v6 other than [b]trickle up players who end up liking a competitive format[/b].[/quote]
But that is great and the whole point of the entire thing![/quote]
I agree, but I don't believe we have to do a single thing about that. My main point is they dont really like comp. HL they like more, and HL is a nice gateway into 6's. There isn't anything more we can hope from this.
The best way to help us isnt with lobby systems it's with coverage. Spec options like dota has...that sort of thing.
Shout out to the guy who name-dropped MLB as a reason variety isnt needed in tf2. Baseball has to be the most boring sport out there. Not even actual baseball players enjoy watching it.
Shout out to the guy who name-dropped MLB as a reason variety isnt needed in tf2. Baseball has to be the most boring sport out there. Not even actual baseball players enjoy watching it.
Salamancer#161 Pudding Cup, your best bet is make a new thread here on the forums to collect feedback and after-action reports. We can get the word to the TF team to check that thread.
Ok because I'm a little confused about what you/valve is expecting from us, or like what our goal is. Just figure out what's the best system for banning items? I just wanna make sure before I spend the time setting everything up that we have a clear objective.
[quote=Salamancer]#161 Pudding Cup, your best bet is make a new thread here on the forums to collect feedback and after-action reports. We can get the word to the TF team to check that thread.[/quote]
Ok because I'm a little confused about what you/valve is expecting from us, or like what our goal is. Just figure out what's the best system for banning items? I just wanna make sure before I spend the time setting everything up that we have a clear objective.
I guess it's kind of nice that they've said SOMETHING. Either way, it's easy to see why they are alienating 6s players, and Robin's grievances with 6v6 is something we've all been pretty aware of as a community. If they get more people interested in competitive and this benefits 6s in some way, great, but I admittedly have a hard time getting excited; I know that the day that competitive TF2 shifts from being a fast-paced, dynamic, teamwork-heavy twitch shooter into being about countering godawful unlocks in hopes of artificially shifting the metagame with more bloated shit will be the day I completely stop giving a shit and move onto fighting games or something. I just don't see any merit in highlander, even though valve and the pubbies might.
I guess it's kind of nice that they've said SOMETHING. Either way, it's easy to see [i]why[/i] they are alienating 6s players, and Robin's grievances with 6v6 is something we've all been pretty aware of as a community. If they get more people interested in competitive and this benefits 6s in some way, great, but I admittedly have a hard time getting excited; I know that the day that competitive TF2 shifts from being a fast-paced, dynamic, teamwork-heavy twitch shooter into being about countering godawful unlocks in hopes of artificially shifting the metagame with more bloated shit will be the day I completely stop giving a shit and move onto fighting games or something. I just don't see any merit in highlander, even though valve and the pubbies might.
A couple comments:
Unless I'm mistaken, Valve wants a set whitelist for their own servers. Allowing server owners to choose which weapons to ban is good and all, but it doesn't really help to create a universal list. A voting system would be implemented to help find the right list. After all is said and done the voting system would likely be scrapped for this almighty "universal list."
Secondly, you could use a similar voting system that's used for map voting in some pugs: http://imgur.com/43XJhDe (http://hl.crit-fail.net/events/1110) Let's say the top 5-10 voted weapons would get banned.
A couple comments:
Unless I'm mistaken, Valve wants a set whitelist for their own servers. Allowing server owners to choose which weapons to ban is good and all, but it doesn't really help to create a universal list. A voting system would be implemented to help find the right list. After all is said and done the voting system would likely be scrapped for this almighty "universal list."
Secondly, you could use a similar voting system that's used for map voting in some pugs: http://imgur.com/43XJhDe (http://hl.crit-fail.net/events/1110) Let's say the top 5-10 voted weapons would get banned.
BLoodSireThe best way to help us isnt with lobby systems it's with coverage. Spec options like dota has...that sort of thing.
I disagree. while tf2's spec options are far from perfect there not bad. more important is making it easier for new players to try and get started in competitive. If they like what they see then they'll go on to play in one of the existing leagues, and more players & the more people that know about it means more viewers, means more money, means more sponsorships etc.
currently a new player might see a cast, think "oh that's kinda cool" wonder how to join in, see that you have to register on various sites, seek out teams, download software etc and simply lose interest.
this way they can simply open the game and click "join lobby."
[quote=BLoodSire]
The best way to help us isnt with lobby systems it's with coverage. Spec options like dota has...that sort of thing.[/quote]
I disagree. while tf2's spec options are far from perfect there not bad. more important is making it easier for new players to try and get started in competitive. If they like what they see then they'll go on to play in one of the existing leagues, and more players & the more people that know about it means more viewers, means more money, means more sponsorships etc.
currently a new player might see a cast, think "oh that's kinda cool" wonder how to join in, see that you have to register on various sites, seek out teams, download software etc and simply lose interest.
this way they can simply open the game and click "join lobby."